We acquired an Oakland with a "little" work.

[Sloth]

Hello,

Again another distraction from the restoration of our 1903 Cleveland. What happened a few weeks ago? We went to a club meeting which was held at the premises of a classic car dealer. He has a very nice collection of classic cars for sale, but one car stood a bit forlorn against a wall  behind other cars. Walking around and talking with club members, I was attracted by this car. Looking better, it appeared, this car was an 1910 Oakland model K 40HP Tourer (demi tonneau) formerly owned by Henry Austin Clark. When Mr. Clark sold his collection, a museum in the Netherlands acquired it. After the museum owner died, the family of the deceased sold all the cars The classic car dealer where we held our club meeting, bought this car. But not all was well, when Ann and I saw the Oakland, it was converted into some kind of early racer. The rear of the body was cut off, fenders and running boards removed  and so on. Luckily, all parts came with the car. Ann and I could imagine how the Oakland would look if properly rebuild. Long story short, we swapped one of our other cars for the Oakland. The dealer happy and we happy.

 

The Oakland at its former glory.

 

The Oakland as delivered to us.

 

A week ago the Oakland was delivered, including all the parts belonging to this car. First observation, I am not able to crank start it, 320 cubic inches is just to much for me. The engine is huge! So an electric starter must be added, and that is what I am trying to figure out at this moment. Just one condition: no welding and no drilling of extra holes into the chassis!  In the mean time Ann and I put the rear and the front of the body together, took me 4 days to make the necessary wooden stiffeners and other wooden parts, just  to make the repair as good as possible.  In the past the clutch was repaired, but it is very stiff and grabby. So I have to look after it.

Jobs to to do:

- Adding an electric starter

- Replacing the upholstery, the car came with original upholstery but the upholstery is kept together with Ducktape.....

- Looking after the clutch (multi plate clutch)

- Putting the car together (running boards, fenders, lamps, hood, splash aprons etc.)

- Replacing the hood by black 1910 correct fabric (low priority)

 

As slight problem, no documentation came withe the car. Furthermore, there is not much info on the web and at the forums. A parts list (or copy) of a 1910 Oakland model K 40 HP would be welcome.

To be continued......

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sloth
typing errors (see edit history)

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Sloth said:

The Oakland as delivered to us.  ...the rear body was CUT OFF..

How on earth could somebody do that to a nice complete early brass car?    The car finally went to the right person now for sure.

[alsfarms]

40 HP brass is GOOD!  I will pm you with a thought to consider for a starter.

Al

[JV Puleo]

I've been thinking of an electric starter as well and have the same reservations. I don't weld and I do not want a ring gear added to the flywheel. If the Oakland has a transmission that is separate from the engine I'd look into making some sort of chain driven gear reduction starter that bolts to the frame (hopefully using holes that are already there) and uses a sprocket and one-way clutch (I forget the proper name for this) with the sprocket added between the engine and transmission. This sort of thing was done in period. I've seen a very early one on a Peerless, supposedly done by the factory, and REO used a chain-drive starter in the same manner.

[Terry Harper]

47 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

..... making some sort of chain driven gear reduction starter that bolts to the frame (hopefully using holes that are already there) and uses a sprocket and one-way clutch (I forget the proper name for this) with the sprocket added between the engine and transmission. 

 

Sort of a one way ratcheting dog clutch?

[JV Puleo]

Dog clutch...that's the term I couldn't remember. American RR used a Westinghouse chain drive starter on the Silver Ghosts and PI's that worked through the transmission. To start the car you had to have it in neutral with the clutch in. If you pressed in the clutch, the starter would turn but the engine wouldn't.

[F&J]

 sprag clutch is one name. I don't know if they need a certain minimum RPM to engage or not, probably not. Some automatic transmissions have them;  Maybe they could be cheap used donor pieces for a project?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprag_clutch

 

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I had in mind to use a modern starter – something easily replaced – and a planetary gear drive that I think came out of either an automatic transmission or a 4WD transaxle with a sprocket and dog clutch as part of the connection between the engine and transmission. It all sounds more complicated than it is. I don't think there is a minimum RPM and when the engine starts it overides the clutch. In any case, that is a LONG way in the future.

Edited November 11, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[J.H.Boland]

PM sent.

[Mike Macartney]

I used a sprag clutch on the electric starter motor for my 1903 Crestmobile. A sprag clutch is a roller bearing that will only drive in one direction. When going in the other direction it freewheels.

 

 

To reduce the speed of the starter motor I added gears and a cog for the chain.

 

 

The starter motor I used was a BMW 2002 one, only because there were a few here in my daughters second hand stores! 

[dictator27]

From the mid teens through to 1928 Studebaker used a chain drive starter mounted at the front of the engine and using a one way clutch on the nose of the crankshaft.

[alsfarms]

PM sent......

[TexRiv_63]

Great project - I'm in.

[Walt G]

I vaguely remember the car at Austin Clark's museum in Southampton , long island, NY , the mention of the duct taped upholstery is what triggered a faint memory of it.

No, I do not have any further information! BUT Austin's library was donated to the Henry Ford in Michigan while he was still living. They may still have a folder on the cars history as he had a manila file folder on every car he bought . I recall there was a drawer in a filing cabinet in his library on this when I worked for him full time as librarian in the 1971-74 era. Within the past 6 months or so another car he owned of the brass era was in question as to what/who when and I told the people who were asking at the time to contact the Henry Ford and I believe they did indeed have a folder on that car !

I can't remember what pills to take everyday to keep me vertical but do remember things like this that happened nearly 50 years ago.......................

[Sloth]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:30 PM, JV Puleo said:

I've been thinking of an electric starter as well and have the same reservations. I don't weld and I do not want a ring gear added to the flywheel. If the Oakland has a transmission that is separate from the engine I'd look into making some sort of chain driven gear reduction starter that bolts to the frame (hopefully using holes that are already there) and uses a sprocket and one-way clutch (I forget the proper name for this) with the sprocket added between the engine and transmission. This sort of thing was done in period. I've seen a very early one on a Peerless, supposedly done by the factory, and REO used a chain-drive starter in the same manner.

Hello Joe,

Thanks, I like the idea, but there are no 'open' rotating parts at the drive train. Everything is enclosed, that means that only the flywheel is available to use for an electric starter.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:35 PM, Mike Macartney said:

I used a sprag clutch on the electric starter motor for my 1903 Crestmobile. A sprag clutch is a roller bearing that will only drive in one direction. When going in the other direction it freewheels.

 

 

To reduce the speed of the starter motor I added gears and a cog for the chain.

 

 

The starter motor I used was a BMW 2002 one, only because there were a few here in my daughters second hand stores! 

Hello Mike,

That is very nicely made, I really like this. Maybe something to consider for the Cleveland.

Regards,

Harm

Edited November 14, 2021 by Sloth
typing error (see edit history)

[Sloth]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:53 PM, Walt G said:

I vaguely remember the car at Austin Clark's museum in Southampton , long island, NY , the mention of the duct taped upholstery is what triggered a faint memory of it.

No, I do not have any further information! BUT Austin's library was donated to the Henry Ford in Michigan while he was still living. They may still have a folder on the cars history as he had a manila file folder on every car he bought . I recall there was a drawer in a filing cabinet in his library on this when I worked for him full time as librarian in the 1971-74 era. Within the past 6 months or so another car he owned of the brass era was in question as to what/who when and I told the people who were asking at the time to contact the Henry Ford and I believe they did indeed have a folder on that car !

I can't remember what pills to take everyday to keep me vertical but do remember things like this that happened nearly 50 years ago.......................

Hello Sir,

Thank you for your reply, I surely will contact the Ford Museum. I let you know what comes out of it.

Regards,

Harm

 

[Sloth]

Hello,

Yesterday, Ann and I managed to put (loosely)  the running board, splash guard and fenders at the left side of the car. I have to make new running boards, because the bolts used to fix the fenders where mostly cut off or so badly rusted that they are loose in the wood of the running board. As the boards are covered with Linoleum (very nice brown color)  it is impossible to replace the bolts without destroying the Linoleum. New Linoleum is sold by the Restoration Supply Company, so one supply problem solved.

 

Left side of the car, after we put on the running board, splash guard and  fenders. (sorry for the bad picture, but outside it rained very heavily.

 

Furthermore, I have a nice puzzle for you. The Oakland has a aluminum object on the dashboard, I really have no idea what it is. On the back of this 'thing' are two connections for 1/4" tubes and on the front something what seems to be a tap . Gentlemen, do you have any idea what it is?

This puzzles me, can't find anything about it in my books.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited November 14, 2021 by Sloth (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

"there are no 'open' rotating parts at the drive train. Everything is enclosed, that means that only the flywheel is available to use for an electric starter."

 

I have a two cylinder Maxwell with the same limitation for fitting a starter motor., the flywheel is the only exposed rotating part of the engine.  The previous owner fitted a  combined starter/generator with a belt drive around the flywheel.  This is a common modification for these cars and does not involve any welding or drilling of holes.  The flywheel is 18" diameter and the starter generator pully is 2" diameter so when the engine is running there is a 9:1 step up in speed on the generator which is designed to run at up to 12,000 RPM.

It worked well but I removed it and now start it by hand.  I can provide more detail if you are interested.

[Terry Harper]

5 hours ago, Sloth said:

 

This puzzles me, can't find anything about it in my books.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Here you go Harm,

This is from a 1913 Automobile Buyers Reference. It appears to be  a very neat and unique after market accesory! Another article from 1914 refers to it as a combination primer and carbon remover. One chamber is for gasoline the other is for carbon remover (whatever that was at the time) and was available with either brass or nickle trim. It also stated the "The savegas admits sufficient warm air with the gasoline to produce a uniform mixture of gas" and... was available in three sizes

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Sloth]

20 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

 

Here you go Harm,

This is from a 1913 Automobile Buyers Reference. It appears to be  a very neat and unique after market accesory! Another article from 1914 refers to it as a combination primer and carbon remover. One chamber is for gasoline the other is for carbon remover (whatever that was at the time) and was available with either brass or nickle trim. It also stated the "The savegas admits sufficient warm air with the gasoline to produce a uniform mixture of gas" and... was available in three sizes

 

 

Hello Terry,

Thank you very much, that's really fast! After reading your explanation, it seems to me a to be kind of  'snake oil device' 😉, but it is a very attractive design. I wonder what kind of 'magic' fluids they used.

Anyhow I will leave it on the dashboard, it will be a nice conversation piece. I am pretty sure not one of my old car friend have ever seen it, let alone what is it used for.

Regards,

Harm

 

[Walt G]

Hello Harm,

Glade to contribute some possible information on your car regarding AUstin CLark. Hope it was a car that he indeed did own as that would be a link in the chain of who owned it when.

Plus, I do appreciate your respect by calling me "Sir" but from now on, most everyone - I am Walt! 😄 and this is to all but a very few who I have absolutely no respect for.

 

Walt Gosden

[AWISE]

Sloth,  I installed a electric starter and ring gear to the flywheel on a 10 Oakland 40 hp If you contact me I can give you what i used and photos how i installed them  Andys Garage  andygarage@comcast.net   302-245-7276

[Sloth]

5 hours ago, AWISE said:

Sloth,  I installed a electric starter and ring gear to the flywheel on a 10 Oakland 40 hp If you contact me I can give you what i used and photos how i installed them  Andys Garage  andygarage@comcast.net   302-245-7276

Hello Andy,

Send you an email.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

On 11/14/2021 at 7:29 PM, Sloth said:

Hello Sir,

Thank you for your reply, I surely will contact the Ford Museum. I let you know what comes out of it.

Regards,

Harm

 

Hello Walt,

Yesterday I contacted the Henry Ford Museum. This evening I got a nice email from Lauren of the Benson Ford Research Center. Yes, they have 2 folders of Oakland one 1910 and one 1911. Lauren will let me know what she find in the folders. But due to Covid restrictions it will take some time before she has access to these files. So i am very excited, and have to wait.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

Hello,

Today I disassembled the gearbox and clutch. What I found did not help to improve my mood 🤬. The seller told me that the clutch was repaired and the clutch plates covered with a modern material. But he had problems with it as the clutch was very 'grabby' . And right he was! After disassembly it was clear that the clutch plates were covered with Kevlar friction material. As the Kevlar is thicker than the round cork pieces which are inserted in the bronze clutch plates, they let two of the five plates out to compensate for the grater thickness.  The results of this 'improvement' are a broken main gear (missing one tooth), a fractured main spindle and a damaged second gear (took care of the missing tooth), and some bearings are shot.

First thing I did was the removal of the Kevlar. As the Kevlar was glued on the plate, removing was easy. Just heat the plate on a small electric stove (outside the shop, with the wind in the right direction! Oh boy does that stink and smokes! ) And with some scraping the Kevlar came right off. The bronze plates are undamaged and ready to receive new cork inserts.

 

Clutch plate covered with modern Kevlar friction material.

 

The clutch as it came out of the housing.

 

Fractured main shaft and bearing with some dents, did not rotate anymore without a lot of grinding noise....

 

Main gear with missing tooth.

 

Gentlemen, I have a question, can you tell me how much the cork inserts should protrude through the bronze clutch plates?

 

Regards,

Harm (who goes pouring himself a very stiff Gin-tonic 😒)

 

[alsfarms]

Harm,

Good for you getting rid of the Kevlar material.  I worked for years in the Power Generation business and Kevlar was tried and found to not be the best where rotating parts are part of the process.  Kevlar causes grooving and wear on the shaft it rides against.  We quit using it as the secondary damage was not worth the effort and time to install.  I am not a good one to ask about cork however.  It appears that you have learned why this Oakland has sat in the back, nearly an automobile cripple!  Keep up the good work.

Al

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

It’s a bummer that someone did that. Are replacement gears available or will you have to have them made?  Mike

[Bob McAnlis]

Harm:  early Hudsons used cork button wet multiple disc clutches. They are really smooth.  I used automatic transmission fluid in my Hudson clutch.   I no longer have my Hudson , but suggest advise could come on that forum.  In your case, you will have to know how much travel you have, how many times you need to divide that travel space because you have multiple plates, and also account for the  swelling that the cork buttons may encounter in the ATF.   It should be a fun project   Thanks Bob 

 

[JV Puleo]

What a mess...and idiotic as well. This is what our friend Ed would call "tractor mechanic" work although to my eye it's even worse. What about the 2 missing plates? Did you get them or will you have to make them. I have some pertinent information I'll attach. Do you know if it was intended to be a dry or a wet clutch?

 

These pages are from PM Heldt's "The Gasoline Motor" Volume 2 - published in 1912.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I got them out of order but the page numbers show.

[Terry Harper]

Harm,

That is not good. Its a classic example of someone deciding that they can "improve" and old design. However, with your skill and patience I am sure you and Ann will have it fixed up in no time.  Have you joined the Oakland club yet?

 

http://www.oaklandowners.com/

Edited November 19, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Sloth]

19 hours ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

It’s a bummer that someone did that. Are replacement gears available or will you have to have them made?  Mike

Hello Mike,

I have to make the gears. They are DP6 18 teeth 2 pieces and one 14 teeth, for which I have the gear cutters already ordered. Also ordered the 42CrMo4 steel.

When I make them I will publish pictures.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

17 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

What a mess...and idiotic as well. This is what our friend Ed would call "tractor mechanic" work although to my eye it's even worse. What about the 2 missing plates? Did you get them or will you have to make them. I have some pertinent information I'll attach. Do you know if it was intended to be a dry or a wet clutch?

 

These pages are from PM Heldt's "The Gasoline Motor" Volume 2 - published in 1912.

 

 

 

 

Hello Joe,

Thank you very much, this really helps me. I read it very careful, it reads that the buttons should protrude 1/16". So I measure the 'left out and unharmed' plates, and indeed the buttons on these plate protrude 1/16". One plate showed some wear, those buttons are slightly less than 1/16". So I ordered a bag of new wine bottle  corks. Will be a fun project to turn them from 21 to 14.5 mm.

Regards,

Harm

Edited November 19, 2021 by Sloth
typing error (see edit history)

[Sloth]

16 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

Harm,

That is not good. Its a classic example of someone deciding that they can "improve" and old design. However, with your skill and patience I am sure you and Ann will have it fixed up in no time.  Have you joined the Oakland club yet?

 

http://www.oaklandowners.com/

Hello Terry,

Thank you for your kind words. I guess disassembling and finding some bodged parts, is the most depressing phase. So from now on it only can go better -did nor start the engine yet, so I am not so sure ....- 😀.

No, I did not join the Oakland club, but one of these days I will.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

Hello,

Today I cleaned the bronze clutch plates, they came out very nicely. Inspected the steel disks, some of them are blue and a bit warped. That means they became very hot, asked the seller if he used the clutch dry? Yes he did, so I guess I must replace the steel disks. Not too difficult, just make a drawing and have them water cut. But I am curious what quality of steel plate should be used. Anyone have a suggestion? 

We also went to a leather wholesale. We choose 3 full hides of a very nice quality black buffalo hide. I really like upholstery work, I foresee a pleasant job. Disassembled one front seat (got rid of nearly 1.5 pounds of duck tape layers 😄, a dusty and messy affair. The springs came out like new, we even found a small label stating a job number (998) and a date March 1910. We also found the same number on the body. Matching numbers....😆.

 

Left original undisturbed clutch,  right cleaned clutch plate.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited November 19, 2021 by Sloth
sentence error, more of those (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

3 hours ago, Sloth said:

Hello,

Today I cleaned the bronze clutch plates, they came out very nicely. Inspected the steel disks, some of them are blue and a bit warped. That means they became very hot, asked the seller if he used the clutch dry? Yes he did, so I guess I must replace the steel disks. Not too difficult, just make a drawing and have them water cut. But I am curious what quality of steel plate should be used. Anyone have a suggestion?

 

I've never made clutch plates but the late Harold Sharon wrote that they can be made from circular saw blades...I don't know exactly what material that is but it ought to be something you can find.

[Jeff Spear]

NIce car, I just joined this forum as a place to post my restoration of an 11 hupmobile and im enjoying reading through some threads. 

I have made clutch steels out of regular old cold rolled and it worked fine in a car that was driven often with a wet clutch. I think 4140 would be better but, I really like the saw blade idea those are a high carbon steel im talking about the ones without carbide teeth a 1075 series of steel would be a good match to a saw blade and in my mind work great for a clutch steel automatics use high carbon clutch steels. 

 

Jeff

[Sloth]

Hello,

Today I ordered 8 saw blades to replace the worn clutch disks (thanks Joe 👍). Called the Water Cutting Shop, and asked if they cold cut them, no problem as long as they are not 3" thick 😄.

Furthermore I TIG welded one of the cut off running board brackets. First I removed the remaining bracket ends from the chassis. Drilling out the rivets, took more effort than I thought, very good steel they used in those days. Welding was not much of a problem, low to medium current and slow feed, that keeps the heat down. I hope to weld the second bracket on Friday.

 

Welded running board bracket.

 

To be welded on Friday.

 

Tomorrow Shopping day! As the running boards are covered with Linoleum and are beyond repair, new Linoleum of the right color is needed. I found an interior flooring shop who sells it, the right color is named Terracotta. Tomorrow Ann and I plan to visit the shop and have a look. As we are on the road, we also plan to visit the steel yard, they left a message that the 42CrMo4 I ordered has arrived. Further more we need some green paint, to touch-up the scratches and small chips on the body. I hope the paint shop can scan an mix the right color. Will be a busy day tomorrow. (We are in a bit of a hurry now, Friday evening our PM will announce more and strict COVID measures. Maybe a lock down again?)

Regards,

Harm

 

PS Applied for membership of the Oakland Owners Club International

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Sloth (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Did you drill the rivets first? The old technique for removing them was to drill a small hole through the head. I usually use a center drill...then knock them off with a cold chisel. I've found it to be A LOT easier than trying to take them off solid.