We acquired an Oakland with a "little" work.

[JV Puleo]

What a mess..

I'm with Terry and Al on this. I'd at least look into a casting, perhaps with additional strengthening ribs. The down side is that it will not be easy to machine so I'd also give thought to making the entire piece out of a mild steel. If you do it that way, the additional ribs will probably not be necessary and it might be much easier to keep all the working surfaces in alignment although you may have to alter the design a little to suit your machines. I completely agree that it is out of the question to use it the way it is.

 

As to the cracks...these may well be the result of long hard use when badly out of adjustment.

 

In looking at the photos again. I''m thinking the flange could be a separate piece. I'd be inclined to screw it on to the main piece and then braze the threaded joint thereby not running the risk of the welding temps effecting the steel.

Edited June 1, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Sloth]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for your reactions. Yes a mess it is, even worse after I disassembled the third member tube with the pinion bearing casting from the gearbox. Five of the 8 rivets rattled (holes 5/16" rivets 1/4", how about that?). After removing the tube it seems the tube was removed before, a lot of hammer imprints on the tube end, and some extra holes who did not line up with the holes in the gearbox... Furthermore the tube has the shape of a bow. Tomorrow I will measure the offset in the middle of the tube. I also removed the pinion bearing casting from the tube, it went well, but for one rivet. That rivet was welded under one of the added ribs😡. To get at the rivet, I removed a piece of the rib and removed the rivet. Below the pictures of the 'pinion bearing casting' (could not come up with the correct name for it....).

 

I called 3 foundries, two of them would not taken new orders for the next 6 months. The third would only take the order if they also made the patterns and do the machining 😲.

So the first thing to do, is making drawings, and then order some mild steel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That is exactly what I would do. Start with the drawings and when you've made a plan it's time to start on the piece. I'm certain you can make a better one than the original. You might even be able to cut that flange off and use it...

[Sloth]

Got a PM with a question about the cracks in the pinion bearing casting. To make it more visible that I have a real problem with that casting, I cleaned the casting by sand blasting. Well, that revealed a lot of other problems. One time they tried to braze the cracks with bronze and/or silver. That went wrong, so next, some welding was in order. They removed most of the brazing but not all, the interaction between the molten bronze and the molten steel left a unsightly mess of bubbles and pin holes. Pinholes and holes as big as a sturdy nail all over the welding. Now I understand the use of the silicone sealer (not that it preventing leaking 😄). See the picture below.

 

 

 

Below a nice detail picture of one of the many cracks. No further explanation needed. After some measurement I think the casting -at that point- is rather thin 5/32".  I am still trying to figure out what has happened with this car, to cause this kind of damage. The seller does not know, so I guess the mishap has occurred before the car entered the Netherlands (about 35 years ago).

 

 

Well, I better start taking measurements, ordering steel and make drawings. And above all, figure out how to make the part (or parts) so my machines can handle it.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 2, 2022 by Sloth
Cleaned sentence (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm, What is tve condition of the ring and pinion gears?  With the failure and repair noted, I would think that either or both have been replaced.  It is my thought that the provision for controlling the thrust on the pinion gear was not substantial to hold it it place.  When this looseness got to the extreme, a tooth or two on the pinion gear climbed a ring gear causing this failure.  This is just my thought.  The other owner made a significant attempt to salvage this casting and probably did squeeze some additional miles out of it.  Now, Joe P.  may cringe, but my two cents on this repair would be to follow the basic design of the original while incorporating a better gear ratio, maybe 3:70 or such.  Of course this would mean locating a donor ring and pinion gear set that could be fit into your assembly.  I have faith that what ever method you choose in order to complete this repair will be a good one!

Al

[Sloth]

11 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm, What is tve condition of the ring and pinion gears?  With the failure and repair noted, I would think that either or both have been replaced.  It is my thought that the provision for controlling the thrust on the pinion gear was not substantial to hold it it place.  When this looseness got to the extreme, a tooth or two on the pinion gear climbed a ring gear causing this failure.  This is just my thought.  The other owner made a significant attempt to salvage this casting and probably did squeeze some additional miles out of it.  Now, Joe P.  may cringe, but my two cents on this repair would be to follow the basic design of the original while incorporating a better gear ratio, maybe 3:70 or such.  Of course this would mean locating a donor ring and pinion gear set that could be fit into your assembly.  I have faith that what ever method you choose in order to complete this repair will be a good one!

Al

Hello Al,

Your explanation could be right, the same thing happened to our Flanders. A lot of internal damage to the innards of the gearbox (the Flanders20 has a trans-axle). I repaired it by using Ford model T ring and pinion gears. Also had to replace all the bearings. The ring and pinion gears of the Oakland are OK, no broken or chipped teeth (they could be replaced earlier after the big bang...). According to the parts list, the gear ratio could be 3.50 to 1 or 3.00 to 1, I have to check that tomorrow. The pinion has 15 teeth. So the ring should have 52/53 or 45 teeth. It is my intention to follow the original design, but increase the wall thickness a bit. At the moment I am pondering about how to make it, so I can fit it into the lathe, and that is not as easy / straightforward as I first thought.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sloth
Corrected typo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm, I would guess that if your current ring and pinion are in good shape and have the tooth count you suggest, I would bet that those two items were replaced after the catastrophe that messed up your casting.  This certainly is the time to make your repairs before another significant failure out on the road somewhere.

Al

[JV Puleo]

I've no problem with altering the ratio but if the original gears are fine, that would just add a further complication to the job.

Of course, it's not really possible to assess a job like this from photos but here's where I'd start...

I'd use a rectangular block of steel, bored through at some size smaller than the finished size but that fits a mandrel. Then I'd turn the end, flip it around and turn and thread a short section of the other end to attach the flange, either the original one or a new one. I doubt the squared part has to be accurate to the thousandth but turning something that big from one piece and milling the square part would be a massive job and might call for really big machines. It's something that demands a lot of thought before starting.

Edited June 3, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Sloth]

21 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm, I would guess that if your current ring and pinion are in good shape and have the tooth count you suggest, I would bet that those two items were replaced after the catastrophe that messed up your casting.  This certainly is the time to make your repairs before another significant failure out on the road somewhere.

Al

Hello Al,

As promised, today I spend some time under the Oakland to count the number of teeth on the ring gear. There are 53 teeth on the gear, making it 3.53 to 1. But as I used a very bright led lamp (getting older and need more light to see the details 😉), I saw also some discoloration on some of the teeth. Cleaned the teeth with fine waterproof sanding paper and machine oil. Well, long story short, a lot of teeth are dressed up by welding 😡. I must admit it is nicely done, but will the welding hold? The Oakland engine has a lot of torque, I don't know how the repaired clutch will behave. But I think it is possible that when the clutch  comes in with a bang,  I am afraid then the repaired teeth of the ring gear will not withstand the impact, and that means a new catastrophe in the making. When the pinion of our Flanders20 lost 2 teeth due to a worn out thrust collar (about 6 years ago), I used a Ford model T ring and pinion set (both are the same size as the Flanders). It took a lot of machining, but it still works perfectly. As the engines of the Flanders and the Ford have roughly the same specifications (torque, HP and RPM), no extra strain is put on the ring and pinion gears. Have to think what to do with this one.... The engine of the Oakland is quite a different beast, I am afraid the model T gears will not withstand the power and the torque.

To me it is clear, the root cause of the destruction of the main clutch gear and the third member casting is caused by the climbing up of the pinion into the ring gear. Al, your observation seems to be correct!

Did not pour myself an other stiff gin tonic, don't want becoming an alcoholic 🤪.

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 3, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, Sloth said:

 

Did not pour myself an other stiff gin tonic, don't want becoming an alcoholic 🤪.

Regards,

Harm

Sounds like a good night to sit out side, enjoy the spring evening, smell the fresh air, the tilled soil and watch the stars a bit.

[alsfarms]

Harm, At this point in the Oakland Saga, sadly, it may be time to bite it off and start your casting repair process and also start looking for a new made ring and pinion, per your example. Conversely, you might be able to find a ring and pinion set from another application and do the alteration to mount into your Oakland housings.  You probably have sources on the continent to have a new set made or we have several options here in the US.  I feel for you Harm, but this type of repair happens to all of us!  I am betting on your solution being bullet proof.  The original gearing would best excellent to duplicate.  Can you post a picture of the weld repaired tooth?  I would guess the pinion also is going to have a bad tooth or two.

Al

[Layden B]

Model A Ford rear axle gears are made in high speed ratios and are plenty strong for this application. They are also under $600 and readily available. You might think bigger on what internal changes you make in this repair.

[Bloo]

I was about to suggest that, but I see Layden B already has. Model A gears are spiral, so you would need to deal with more fore/aft thrust. You would be rewarded with less noise. Since I see you need to remake the part that supports the pinion anyway, that might be a non issue.

 

Another possibility, though maybe not quite so easy to adapt would be Land Rover / Range Rover gears. They were about the only manufacturer still using spiral bevel (zero offset) gears in modern times. This was in Rover-made axles only, but into the early 2000s. There are 2 versions, "short nose" and "long nose". These were semi-common junkyard parts in the US 7 or 8 years ago, and 3.55 was a common ratio. I have no idea if these would be common where you live. The pinion has an integral shaft like more modern vehicles, and unlike the Model A Ford. Also the pinion threads are at the outer end of the spline, inconvenient but probably not impossible for a torque tube application.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Bloo, Could you scrounge around and post a picture of the Land Rover gear set you refer to?  Also some raw measurements would also be a plus as Harm considers his options.

Al

Edited June 5, 2022 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Bloo, Could you scrounge around and post a picture of the Land Rover gear set you refer to?  Also some raw measurements would also be a plus as Harm considers his options.

Al

 

Unfortunately I don't have any. I did the deep dive when trying to figure out what might be possible to retrofit to my 36 Pontiac axle, and the Land Rover gears and Model A gears were 2 things I was taking a serious look at. Unfortunately my notes are lost, and I was never completely sure about the measurements on the Rover gears anyway. What is unique about them is that they are spiral bevel, and thus have no offset, making them potentially adaptable to many very old cars. I believe designs like this were all gone in the US by 1940 or so, and all gone in the UK by the mid 50s with this one exception.

 

I don't know how Harm's pinion mounts, but I think many cars before the mid 30s mount on the end of a shaft like the model A Ford. The Rover design is for an open driveline, and the pinion looks about like any other pinion for a newer car outside of the fact that it runs with no offset. There is a machined area, and a spline, and then a threaded area on the outside. The idea is that you have a couple of Timken bearings, or potentially something else I guess, and a flange goes on the spline held on by a nut from the outside, clamping it all together. Good for open driveline, bad for torque tubes. For a torque tube you want the threads on the inside holding everything together and the spline sticking out past them to attach the driveline to. Well, either that or you want the pinion to bolt on to the end of a shaft like a Model A. There could be a way to make it work with 2 flanges if you had a lot of room at the back of the torque tube, but I think most torque tube solutions would require a double floating spline, and that never turns out well. Another thing to watch out for is that a ring and pinion for a front axle may have a reverse cut. I don't know how much it matters.

 

There is (or was) a company in Utah who make these Rover ring and pinion sets in all sorts of ratios for people looking to change, 3.55 being a common factory ratio as I understand it. I think the company may have been Great Basin Rovers, but their site is not working now, so I could not verify.

 

You might find this interesting:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Bloo, That is interesting for sure.  I would like to search out your potential reference to a Utah firm who makes or has made the ring and pinion sets.  Could you share just a bit more information, maybe the town, and etc.  If they are still in business I am sure they could supply specific measurements and best set up methods for an interchange installation.  This is an interesting subject that Harm is confronted with and we can all learn from it.

Al

[Bloo]

I thought I could go right to it. Greatbasinrovers.com and GBRutah.com may be the same thing? Here is a wayback from 2015 or something. The site looks completely different than I remember it but it has to be the same outfit. There can't be more than one company in Utah actually manufacturing (not just reselling) Land Rover ring and pinion sets.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20150109222929/http://gbrutah.com/product-catalog/cs-differentials-overview/coil-sprung-diff-gearing/

 

This looks like the same outfit now but really pared down. I'm not seeing the ring and pinion sets:

 

https://gbrutah.com/

 

Also probaby the same outfit, but the link is dead:

 

greatbasinrovers.com

 

But, there's always junkyard 3.55 gears, if any still exist. I saw a couple of likely vehicles in a Seattle area pik n pull several years ago. It was muddy, cold, and the rain was coming down in sheets. "Some other day" I said....

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Atlantic British carries crown wheel and pinion sets for older Land Rovers including Range Rovers (1987-95) and Defender 90 & 110 models if this is what you are referring too. https://www.roverparts.com/differentials/bearings-gears-flanges/TBH100040/

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I find all this very interesting. It's just the sort of challenge I like. The original ring & pinion would have had straight cut gears and the damaged housing must have incorporated some sort of threaded carrier for the pinion so that it could be adjusted to meet the ring. I'm certain that is what the rectangular hole in the top of the casting is for. So...the pinon was likely mounted on a short shaft with a squared end to slip into the drive shaft. The pinion with integral shaft should work but rather than fool with the heat treating I'd probably make a new drive shaft with a matching spline in the end. That would be stronger than the squared end in any case. A spline would be a real challenge but you can buy spline cut sleeves that can be used to make the connection. I'd be curious to see what the rest of the rear end looks like...the ring gear must have been fitted to a carrier and the carrier suspended by bearings of some sort so it remains to be seen if a modern ring gear can be fitted to to. In any case, Harm is one of the few enthusiasts I'm confident is up to the challenge.

 

EDIT: In looking back at the pictures, you can see the threaded portion through the slot in the top. I wonder if this couldn't be eliminated and the fitting done with a thrust bearing and shims?

Edited June 6, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I agree Joe, If a re-engineer is where this project goes, I would go for the best remedy to extend the life cycle of the repair and ultimately this Oakland, (including potential new ring and pinion gears).  If that remedy calls for ring and pinion and new cast or fabricated duplicate of the bombed original casting, I would go for the best repair as I am sure Harm is going to do.  He will likely share his thoughts shortly.

Al

[JV Puleo]

Personally, I'd first want to make it work. Then, as much as possible, look like the original part but if that proves impractical, so be it. I feel that we're in this to make these old machines work.

[Sloth]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:27 AM, alsfarms said:

Harm, At this point in the Oakland Saga, sadly, it may be time to bite it off and start your casting repair process and also start looking for a new made ring and pinion, per your example. Conversely, you might be able to find a ring and pinion set from another application and do the alteration to mount into your Oakland housings.  You probably have sources on the continent to have a new set made or we have several options here in the US.  I feel for you Harm, but this type of repair happens to all of us!  I am betting on your solution being bullet proof.  The original gearing would best excellent to duplicate.  Can you post a picture of the weld repaired tooth?  I would guess the pinion also is going to have a bad tooth or two.

Al

Hello Al,

Called 2 companies who are making gears. Non of them are willing to make it. So that calls for plan B.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

15 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

Unfortunately I don't have any. I did the deep dive when trying to figure out what might be possible to retrofit to my 36 Pontiac axle, and the Land Rover gears and Model A gears were 2 things I was taking a serious look at. Unfortunately my notes are lost, and I was never completely sure about the measurements on the Rover gears anyway. What is unique about them is that they are spiral bevel, and thus have no offset, making them potentially adaptable to many very old cars. I believe designs like this were all gone in the US by 1940 or so, and all gone in the UK by the mid 50s with this one exception.

 

I don't know how Harm's pinion mounts, but I think many cars before the mid 30s mount on the end of a shaft like the model A Ford. The Rover design is for an open driveline, and the pinion looks about like any other pinion for a newer car outside of the fact that it runs with no offset. There is a machined area, and a spline, and then a threaded area on the outside. The idea is that you have a couple of Timken bearings, or potentially something else I guess, and a flange goes on the spline held on by a nut from the outside, clamping it all together. Good for open driveline, bad for torque tubes. For a torque tube you want the threads on the inside holding everything together and the spline sticking out past them to attach the driveline to. Well, either that or you want the pinion to bolt on to the end of a shaft like a Model A. There could be a way to make it work with 2 flanges if you had a lot of room at the back of the torque tube, but I think most torque tube solutions would require a double floating spline, and that never turns out well. Another thing to watch out for is that a ring and pinion for a front axle may have a reverse cut. I don't know how much it matters.

 

There is (or was) a company in Utah who make these Rover ring and pinion sets in all sorts of ratios for people looking to change, 3.55 being a common factory ratio as I understand it. I think the company may have been Great Basin Rovers, but their site is not working now, so I could not verify.

 

You might find this interesting:

 

 

Hello Blo,

Your installment is very inspirational. I have a friend who's deeply involved into Land Rover matters. I guess he will have some old worn out ring and pinion gears, to take some measurements.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Sloth]

10 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I find all this very interesting. It's just the sort of challenge I like. The original ring & pinion would have had straight cut gears and the damaged housing must have incorporated some sort of threaded carrier for the pinion so that it could be adjusted to meet the ring. I'm certain that is what the rectangular hole in the top of the casting is for. So...the pinon was likely mounted on a short shaft with a squared end to slip into the drive shaft. The pinion with integral shaft should work but rather than fool with the heat treating I'd probably make a new drive shaft with a matching spline in the end. That would be stronger than the squared end in any case. A spline would be a real challenge but you can buy spline cut sleeves that can be used to make the connection. I'd be curious to see what the rest of the rear end looks like...the ring gear must have been fitted to a carrier and the carrier suspended by bearings of some sort so it remains to be seen if a modern ring gear can be fitted to to. In any case, Harm is one of the few enthusiasts I'm confident is up to the challenge.

 

EDIT: In looking back at the pictures, you can see the threaded portion through the slot in the top. I wonder if this couldn't be eliminated and the fitting done with a thrust bearing and shims?

Hello Joe,

Yes, the carrier has a threaded ring inside exactly as you thought. It adjusts the bearing up and down to obtain the ideal teeth contact pattern. I salvaged this ring, but a p.o. botched it very badly. I guess the adjustment of the pinion can be done by shims.

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sloth
Corrected carrier (see edit history)

[Sloth]

Hello gentlemen,

@Joe: the pinion is mounted on the full length drive shaft. The drive shaft goes into the gear box and carries 2 gears who drive the drive shaft. The drive shaft runs through the third member tube (torque tube). The pinion can be adjust by a threaded ring in the differential hub and a threaded ring into the gear box. That means that the drive shaft is fixed between these two threaded rings. Using shims would make adjustment quite a chore...

 

Gentleman, thank you very much for your reactions, very inspirational, it gives me a lot to think about.

This morning I managed to disassemble the rear axle. As I saw earlier the ring gear has a lot of welded teeth, its done very neatly but as can be seen on the picture some pinholes a visible. I must admit that don't like welds with pinholes.

Oakland ring gear and pinion.

 

Back side of the ring gear.

 

Detail some of of the ring gear teeth.

 

Left side of the differential hub (looking from the front of the car).

 

This afternoon I will research which ring and pinion replacement can be used without a lot of mechanical work (relatively speaking) 😉.

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Sloth]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, Sloth said:

 

Hello,

For the time being, the results of my research are positive, conclusion: it can be done.

I will use the Ford model A ring and pinion gear set. There are a number of reasons for it:

1. Readily available in a number of ratios, I need the 3.54 to 1 (Oakland ratio 3.53 to 1)
2. Moderate cost
3. The outside diameter of the Ford pinion bearing = 80mm (Oakland 80mm)
4. The Ford pinion can be mounted on the end of the drive shaft
5. Bearing nuts will fit into the Oakland pinion bearing casting
6. The Oakland bearing retainer can be redesigned so that I can use the original Oakland method of adjusting the pinion bearings

The Land Rover ring and pinion set are also usable. But the pinion has a short stub axle with a number of splines. Mounting the stub on the driveshaft, straight and sturdy, will not be easy. Both ring gears have roughly the same outside dimension 8.8" and 8.2". Pinions are about 1 3/4".

 

After some calculations:

1. The pinion bearing casting should be about 1 1/8" longer on the inside to bring the smaller Ford pinion in contact with the ring gear.
2. An 11/16" ring should be made and put between the differential hub and the ring gear to bring the smaller ford ring gear in contact with the pinion.
3. A new drive shaft should be made about 1 1/8" longer.

 

I looked into the matter of rotation direction. The Ford ring gear is mounted on the right side of the axle (as seen from the front of the Ford automobile), and the ring gear of the Oakland on the left side. That could mean that the Ford ring gear in the Oakland would rotate in the wrong direction, and would wear out prematurely. But as the Oakland engine rotates counter clock wise, the gear will rotate in the advised direction, so no problem here.

 

First thing i will do, making a mock-up to see if my assumptions are right.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Harm, Good on your thinking.  What type of modification, besides the spacer behind the ring gear, to make a proper fit, will be needed to install.  Will you need to redrill the carrier hub or the flange of the ring gear so everything will mate up?  Do you plan to also pin the new ring gear to the hub along with the bolts?  That process might be a bit of trial and error to get to the sweet spot for proper gear mesh.  This update is a real improvement/ betterment that will keep your Oakland reliable and trustworthy into the distant future!

Al

[Sloth]

29 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Harm, Good on your thinking.  What type of modification, besides the spacer behind the ring gear, to make a proper fit, will be needed to install.  Will you need to redrill the carrier hub or the flange of the ring gear so everything will mate up?  Do you plan to also pin the new ring gear to the hub along with the bolts?  That process might be a bit of trial and error to get to the sweet spot for proper gear mesh.  This update is a real improvement/ betterment that will keep your Oakland reliable and trustworthy into the distant future!

Al

Hello Al,

There are no modifications necessary on the carrier hub. On the ring gear, may be new mounting holes could be drilled ( not so sure now if really  needed). I use the spacer as  an adapter to use the original mounting holes on the differential hub and the new mounting holes on the ring gear. To find the 'sweet spot', that can be done by adjusting the pinion by means of original adjusting rings located in the gear box and the pinion bearing casting. Furthermore the position of the ring gear can be adjusted by putting shims behind the differential hub bearings. But I have to dig a bit deeper into that matter.

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I agree adjusting them could be a bit of a challenge.

 

One interesting thing I learned the hard way is that adjusting spiral bevel gears the way we expect to adjust modern hypoid (offset) gears may not work at all. It turns out there are 2 ways of making a hypoid gear, one is by hobbing and the other is... I don't remember. There are all sorts of pattern examples online using paint on the teeth. Many contradict each other and none seem to make this distinction. There is a document floating around by Dana Corp. showing the difference and acknowledging that that pattern moves in an opposite direction when adjusted, depending on how the ring and pinion were originally made. Once I discovered that, I thought I had the tiger by the tail. Nope.

 

My Pontiac/Chevrolet spiral bevel gears did not behave in either expected way. Deburring helped a little, but not near enough. It appears there is some relief inside the valley, and the adjustment is fairly critical. The pattern when correct as it can be does not look "normal" by modern standards. My gears would not adjust by GM's method (they were aftermarket, and the pinion length was slightly different). At some point I discovered that the depth was marked on the pinion, and I needed to measure from the differential carrier bore centerline (axle centerline) to the tip of the pinion. It is often done this way on modern ring and pinion sets. I bought an old Buick factory tool that could measure the distance in a roundabout way. Once set, I had a sort of acceptable pattern, but a couple thousandths of an inch either way and it got completely screwy. I don't know how pinion depth was set on a Model A Ford, but I suspect you will have to do something about like this.

 

I also think that since these gears are spiral bevel, and the old ones were plain bevel, your pinion bearings might have to deal with substantially more fore/aft thrust than they did originally.

 

[Sloth]

17 hours ago, Bloo said:

I agree adjusting them could be a bit of a challenge.

 

One interesting thing I learned the hard way is that adjusting spiral bevel gears the way we expect to adjust modern hypoid (offset) gears may not work at all. It turns out there are 2 ways of making a hypoid gear, one is by hobbing and the other is... I don't remember. There are all sorts of pattern examples online using paint on the teeth. Many contradict each other and none seem to make this distinction. There is a document floating around by Dana Corp. showing the difference and acknowledging that that pattern moves in an opposite direction when adjusted, depending on how the ring and pinion were originally made. Once I discovered that, I thought I had the tiger by the tail. Nope.

 

My Pontiac/Chevrolet spiral bevel gears did not behave in either expected way. Deburring helped a little, but not near enough. It appears there is some relief inside the valley, and the adjustment is fairly critical. The pattern when correct as it can be does not look "normal" by modern standards. My gears would not adjust by GM's method (they were aftermarket, and the pinion length was slightly different). At some point I discovered that the depth was marked on the pinion, and I needed to measure from the differential carrier bore centerline (axle centerline) to the tip of the pinion. It is often done this way on modern ring and pinion sets. I bought an old Buick factory tool that could measure the distance in a roundabout way. Once set, I had a sort of acceptable pattern, but a couple thousandths of an inch either way and it got completely screwy. I don't know how pinion depth was set on a Model A Ford, but I suspect you will have to do something about like this.

 

I also think that since these gears are spiral bevel, and the old ones were plain bevel, your pinion bearings might have to deal with substantially more fore/aft thrust than they did originally.

 

Hello Bloo,

Good point, adjusting can be quite a job. I will use the ring and pinion gear of the Ford model A, I will also use the pinion bearing (size is the same as the Oakland pinion bearing). Looking a bit better into this matter I expect that I can use the Ford rear axle adjustment rules for this modified Oakland rear axle. On the end of the day, the construction of both the Ford and the Oakland axles will be technically the same (applies only for the differential). Using the Ford bearing has the advantage that I can set the preload as described in the Ford manual. 

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

Hello,

This morning I read a lot about adjusting the Ford Model A rear axle. Ford used for the differential hubs and the pinion, tapered roller bearings. Using the tapered roller bearing for the pinion is no problem. BUT, the Oakland axle uses Hyatt spiral roller bearings for the differential hubs. I measured the radial play 1/64", and that is more than I expected. It seems to be not much of a problem for the original Oakland ring and pinion gear, but I think it is not acceptable for a spiral ring and pinion set up (forces in the wrong direction). Replacing the Hyatt bearings by Timken tapered roller bearings is quite possible, there is sufficient space into the axle trumpet. Adjusting the spiral ring and pinion with the Hyatt bearings seems impossible to me.

Gentlemen what is your opinion about this matter?

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm,

In my way of thinking, you must control all of the thrust forces to maintain the reliability and best function of the rear axle.  It appears that the original Oakland design may not have been sufficient controlling thrust as the wear accumulated.  In your circumstance, I would not hesitate to install tapered roller bearings and devise a means to adjust, lock in place and control the thrust forces.

Al

Edited June 9, 2022 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The carrier for the ring gear looks very similar to that on my Mitchell, which also used Hyatt bearings. I replaced them with modern, heavy duty roller bearings...if you can give me the dimensions I can see if they would work for you. Side thrust was taken up with a thrust bearing on one side and a big washer on the other. I used another thrust bearing on the washer side but the side-to-side adjustment will have to be done with shims. If I could have fit tapered roller bearings I probably would have done so.

 

With Hyatt bearings, the outer surface of the extensions on either end of the carrier probably have a pressed-on sleeve. It's very thin and I was unaware of it until I went to turn them down to fit the inner sleeves of the bearings I'd bought. It turned out that the dimension of the carrier extension, without the sleeve, was perfect for the bearing.

 

Is it a full floating axle?

Edited June 8, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Sloth]

18 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The carrier for the ring gear looks very similar to that on my Mitchell, which also used Hyatt bearings. I replaced them with modern, heavy duty roller bearings...if you can give me the dimensions I can see if they would work for you. Side thrust was taken up with a thrust bearing on one side and a big washer on the other. I used another thrust bearing on the washer side but the side-to-side adjustment will have to be done with shims. If I could have fit tapered roller bearings I probably would have done so.

 

With Hyatt bearings, the outer surface of the extensions on either end of the carrier probably have a pressed-on sleeve. It's very thin and I was unaware of it until I went to turn them down to fit the inner sleeves of the bearings I'd bought. It turned out that the dimension of the carrier extension, without the sleeve, was perfect for the bearing.

 

Is it a full floating axle?

Hello Joe,

Thank you for your offer. But, I already found tapered roller bearings who can be used for this application (95 x 55 x 30mm). They are reasonably priced $42,- each. I need to make some adapters for the outside ring and also for the inside ring. But those I had to make anyhow, because of the position of the bearings on the hubs and the axle trumpets. Later on I will show a drawing and pictures of it. And yes, the adjustment has to be done with shims (the same as the Ford model A axle). It is a semi floating axle, with substantial shafts 35mm. One observation: some of the dimensions of this Oakland are metric (mm). I know that the designer of the car mr. Brush stayed in France for some time, maybe that is the reason?

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Some items, bearing is particular, were usually metric. This is because the US bearing industry was just starting and the major suppliers were mostly European. Things like the Chalmers roller crankshaft ran on metric bearings...

 

I would have liked to replace the Hyatt bearings in the Mitchell with tapered rollers but the layout of the rear end housing made it effectively impossible.

Edited June 9, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm,

I couldn't help but think of you and your rear axle problem.  The HCCA has listed a 1910 Oakland for sale on line.  It may be a smaller model than yours but it is listed as having a spare rear end with gears.  It may be worth your time to check this out.  Due to privacy, if you are interested, please drop me a PM and I will share the contact information.  You may be able to see the ad if you are involved with the HCCA.  Let us know if any of what is listed, in the ad, might be available and helpful to your repairs.

Al

[Sloth]

17 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I couldn't help but think of you and your rear axle problem.  The HCCA has listed a 1910 Oakland for sale on line.  It may be a smaller model than yours but it is listed as having a spare rear end with gears.  It may be worth your time to check this out.  Due to privacy, if you are interested, please drop me a PM and I will share the contact information.  You may be able to see the ad if you are involved with the HCCA.  Let us know if any of what is listed, in the ad, might be available and helpful to your repairs.

Al

Hello Al,

Send you a PM.

Regards,

Harm

[Sloth]

Hello all,

Spend the last weeks preparing the Flanders20 for a trip to Germany. We just returned from this 6 day Brass Car reliability tour. Very nice, but at temperatures of 77 to 94F, a bit on the hot side. Some stretches included some steep hills, our Flanders20 became hot, about 160 to 170F just not boiling.....For Ann and me, also just not boiling, luckily Germany has a good supply of beer😋, we needed that stuff and a lot of it.

Remarkably, one of the German participants drove a 1911 Oakland model 30. He told me he had a lot of trouble with the clutch..... which was 'updated' with Kevlar friction plates glued on the bronze plates. That 'improvement' broke the tail end of his gearbox and the third member cast iron tube end. Well, well, we saw that before didn't we 😀. He had it repaired at considerable cost. I observed a not so smooth take off.... Later at the evening, I showed him my Oakland saga, and advised him to bring the clutch back to original and use the prescribed oil. He told me that he had a second Oakland model 25 with the same problems as mine, that one also has the 'improved' clutch plates. I asked him what his plans are for that one. He told me he was sick and tired of it, ring, pinion and bearings are junk also some gears at the gear box must be replaced. The car is now collecting dust in his garage.

 

Oakland matters:

I figured out how to adapt the Oakland differential and Ford ring and pinion gears. I made a mock up of a set of worn out Ford ring and pinion gears. Well long story short, it can be done but this solution did not make me happy at all. Restoring a car means (for me) to stay as close as possible with the original design. So after a lot of thinking I started to scour the AACA and HCCA forums again. Lo and behold I found an add at the Marmon forum, where a ring and pinion are for sale. I contacted the seller, and asked for dimensions. It seems the ring gear has the same dimensions as the Oakland. Only the pinion outer dimension is a bit larger. I made a drawing, and there is just a bit of adjusting needed to make it fit. I ordered the set and hope it will arrive within a few weeks. BTW the ratio is 3.31 to 1, the original Oakland ratio could be 3.54 or 3.00 to 1. So it is in between, not bad at all.

Regards,

Harm

Edited July 7, 2022 by Sloth
Corrected typo (see edit history)

[Sloth]

Hello all,

At last I have something positive to report. Today I received the ring and pinion gear I bought from Durocar. The ring gear has exactly the same dimensions as the Oakland gear and that includes the mounting holes. Most remarkable as this set was made for a 1910 Marmon. The pinion is a bit larger than the original. But as I have to make a new pinion gear casting anyway, I can accommodate the dimensional differences. Also I must make a new third member shaft, for the new pinion I need 1.377" instead of 1.26". That also means an larger pinion bearing.

 

 

 

So for now: back to the drawing board to make the final drawings for the pinion gear casting.

Regards,

a very happy Harm

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Sloth (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Good News can come in many different ways.  I am glad that the Marmon gear set is going to work for you.  Keep us in the loop of progress as it is fun to encourage and share in your repair process.

Al

Edited July 22, 2022 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)