The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

What is Willoughby?

your answer is incorrect.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, prewarnut said:

Who is Theodor Kundtz?

That was my first guess also, but it is not correct.

[edinmass]

As it turns out, everything is not as it appears. 🤔

[wayne sheldon]

Okay, so Willoughby is just the train stop on a "Twilight Zone" episode. And a fine coach builder for other enclosed cars of the era.

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, Cured said:

One should jam a car into gear at the lowest rpm possible. 

Sadly, the bottom ten guys who graduated from tractor mechanic school, out of the class of 500, were working on this car. It’s rather safe to say, they weren’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. There was no way to shift the car properly. Things have been so screwed up on this car, it’s impossible to shift correctly. Fortunately, Phil and I are now experts at all things White. Phil is the world’s leading expert on White clutch adjustment. He has found a bunch of issues related to the clutch..........and some automotive archeology indicates that while we expect we will have it all fixed soon, we will probably pull the transmission and friction disk AFTER we have it shifting correctly. Neither of us like what we see in regards to the transmission. We rather pull it and inspect EVERYTHING.......after we have it shifting correctly. If you want to be successful at sorting difficult cars, you can’t guess, you can’t take a chance, you need to inspect and verify EVERYTHING. Yes it takes time,  yes it’s a lot of work, In the long run it’s the right thing to do. I absolutely detest any car that doesn’t behave well or is not reliable. So we will R & R The transmission and clutch regardless of how well we get it repaired. 50 years of experience tells me to take it apart. And, only half the problem is in the transmission. The other half is the incorrect carburetor that isn’t correctly calibrated, and has a vacuum leak covered up with JB Weld. You haven’t graduated from the half ass tractor mechanic school of repair, without using JB Weld on a job. The car is idling way too fast, so it won’t engage properly.

Edited September 30, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Looks like I need to go back to page one and see what I've missed. NOVI was a train stop for what that may be worth. 

 

Bob 

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

... You haven’t graduated from the half ass tractor mechanic school of repair, without using JB Weld on a job.

 

To quote Oscar Wilde, "I wish I'd said that and by tomorrow I will have."

[Grimy]

Take a look at the gear oil in the transmission--600W thickens and becomes almost tar-like after 20 years or so.

[prewarnut]

Ed, Can you whip up one of these for $1000. finder's fee and free shipping?😁

 

 

[Terry Harper]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

You haven’t graduated from the half ass tractor mechanic school of repair, without using JB Weld on a job.

 

Or silicone gasket crap... especially the blue stuff and lots of it.

 

Hopefully the gears look better than this gem. Do you think they fought to get it in gear few times? (LOL)

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

Ed, Can you whip up one of these for $1000. finder's fee and free shipping?😁

 

 

 

 

Sure.......where you last week when I had to dump the exact unit for 500 bucks.............I'm always a week behind. 

[58L-Y8]

Okay, Time to have a go with a guess.   Who is Larkins & Co., San Francisco, CA.

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Okay, Time to have a go with a guess.   Who is Larkins & Co., San Francisco, CA.

 

NOPE........it's stranger than you would think. I had to do hours of research on it, and found drawings but no photos............think out of the box.........

[Walt G]

20 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

What is Willoughby?

There is a pile of Willoughby factory photos /prints and photo albums that were the personal property of Francis Willoughby ( signed in ink to that fact)  sitting in a stack about 2 feet from where I am typing this . Along with a stack of sales flyers they had printed at the time, mostly all of the 1918 thru 1937 era. I acquired them at a antique show on Rt,. 20 south of Utica, NY over 25 years ago - seller found them at a yard sale during an estate sale. It is amazing how many makes of independent car manufacturers used Willoughby for their enclosed cars , Franklin, Studebaker, Cole, Cadillac, Lincoln, Packard  and others all had "runs" of certain body styles made, perhaps 10 to 15 bodies at a time. Willoughby also did commercial coachwork for local businesses and hospitals . A good story could be told using these images as well as ad proofs that I have.

[58L-Y8]

42 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

NOPE........it's stranger than you would think. I had to do hours of research on it, and found drawings but no photos............think out of the box.........

Wow!  And I thought Larkins was out of the box and a long shot! 

Huh, let's see,  Baker, Rauch & Lang, Cleveland; C.P. Kimball & Co, or Graff Mfg Co., Chicago; Gotfredson Body, Wayne, MI.; Griswold Body co. Detroit.   Far enough out of the box or go further out?

BTW, any later-to-be-well-known custom body designer the creator of this White's body design?

Edited September 30, 2021 by 58L-Y8
Deleted Bender, too late for a 1917 chassis (see edit history)

[edinmass]

First, you need to figure out what year it is. 😝

[Terry Harper]

45 minutes ago, edinmass said:

First, you need to figure out what year it is. 😝

Here is my guess:

 

Who is Theodor Kundtz Company? (aka former Cleveland Cabinet Company and later a division of White Sewing Machine Corp.) for $500.00

Edited September 30, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

45 minutes ago, edinmass said:

First, you need to figure out what year it is. 😝

Ed:

Are you implying the coachwork and chassis are not the same 1917 year of manufacture?

Steve

[edinmass]

So unlike my first White, this car does not use a vacuum tank. I noticed in the photos when I bought it it was missing. So I already bought one to have so when the car showed up I could run it on the vacuum tank as it was designed. (The car never had one.)  This car is either a 1915 or 1916. It uses a pressurized fuel tank system. The engine casting date is May 1915. The entire dashboard, controls, lights, cowl vents, cowl lights all indicate a 1915 or 1916 date. Body is by Rubay, but does not have the custom tags or sills like the 1917 first car I bought. I have literature showing a September 1914 as the first in service 16 Valve Four announcement. A single example 1915 in Michigan has the same dash, controls, and same fuel and dual plug ignition. So, we need some more information, but it’s certainly not a 1917. Yellowstone received 300 16 Dual Valve cars in May and June 1916. With the clear casting date on the block, I am going to call it a 1915. Ed

Edited September 30, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

Looking forward to welcoming it on HCCA tours!

[edinmass]

42 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

Looking forward to welcoming it on HCCA tours!

 

It's going to be interesting.............the casting date/dash/fuel & ignition all say 1915. Body construction is also an earlier style and manufacturing process. The chassis is shorter, and the body is 10 inches narrower in the rear. ( Compared to the 1917 car.) The hood, and hold downs are a different type and style. Battery is under the floor boards, not in a splash apron box like the 17's. Smaller wheels.....by 2 inches. Even some minor casting differences on the block, and oiling system. I need more time with it......but I'm off to Hershey.....so it will have to wait till the middle of the month.

Edited September 30, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Ed:

A 1915 with Rubay body, the plot thickens!    But is the all-weather top by Rubay as well?  

Steve

[wayne sheldon]

Wow! HCCA and CCCA? 

I look forward to more interesting information and updates as you freshen this gem back to reliable touring level. 

 

Enjoy Hershey!

[alsancle]

The comparison with the later car was interesting.  A lot of differences!   

The casting date looks to clearly make it a 1915.   Funny over the years that cars always end up being registered or titled as newer models than they actually where.  I attribute this to sellers trying to make a car "newer" back when a couple of years mattered.

[edinmass]

53 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Ed:

A 1915 with Rubay body, the plot thickens!    But is the all-weather top by Rubay as well?  

Steve

 

I believe I have the “California top“ worked out. There was a special coach building company that did them for Stearns, White, Peerless, and a bunch of other brands in downtown Cleveland. Research is almost done.....and I think I can prove who built it and when, using of the era articles and information. The sliding beveled glass windows sure are slick......l.l.lEd.

[58L-Y8]

Ed:

A Cleveland, Ohio coachbuilder of "California tops", why not?   Those were a practical solution for the Northeast as well where protection from inclement weather and the capability to heat the passenger compartment would be desirable features for costlier prestige cars.   The well-off fell out of love with the open touring faster than the general population and had the wherewithal to indulge in closed car comfort much sooner.   Those sliding beveled glass windows are not only practical but also a rich detail that would have appealed to the upscale customers of the day.

 

Comparing the body design proportions and details of the two Rubay bodies, I'd opine the 1915 may not be the design work of Thomas Hibbard whereas the 1917 definitely is.   The 1917 has just a degree of finesse the 1915 lacks.  

Steve

[SC38dls]

That car looked older in the video now we know it is, so does that mean we should question your age too?  
 

😳

Edited September 30, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[edinmass]

59 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

That car looked older in the video now we know it is, so does that mean we should question your age too?  
 

😳

 

Yes, but I’m moving the date in the opposite direction of the car!

[JV Puleo]

Castings were never machined when they were "green" (i.e. recently done). It was commonplace to pile them up outside to age before machining. At some point ('m not certain of the date but it was well before 1915) a technique for "aging" them artificially was developed. So the question is, did White do that or did they let them stand for a year before using them. I'm inclined to think that they were artificially aged - not so much for the sake of the cars but because White was also making a lot of trucks, with huge orders for the Allies in WWI. I can't imagine they let their castings stand around when there were huge profits to be made.

Edited September 30, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[George K]

Did White offer the 16V4 in their catalog in 1915 or 1916?  What’s the car titled as? Were Kimes and Clark Jr. that wrong.

[edinmass]

The engine was announced in September of 1914. There is a 1915 car in Michigan with the identical systems. I have not seen any 16 Valve Four that has dual plugs that wasn’t called a 1915. The National Data Book for 1917 doesn’t show the dual plug ignition system or the twin dual two spark battery/mag combo. My 1917 car doesn’t have the casting date in the same location. It has a very late casting date in 1916. White offered cars with a 45 horse power four, a 60 horsepower six, and the 72/82 horsepower 16 Valve four ALL AT THE SAME TIME. The second car has a different steering column and wheel as well. When I get a chance to study it, I’m certain we will find a bunch of other differences. 
 

[George K]

17 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The engine was announced in September of 1914. There is a 1915 car in Michigan with the identical systems. I have not seen any 16 Valve Four that has dual plugs that wasn’t called a 1915. The National Data Book for 1917 doesn’t show the dual plug ignition system or the twin dual two spark battery/mag combo. My 1917 car doesn’t have the casting date in the same location. It has a very late casting date in 1916. White offered cars with a 45 horse power four, a 60 horsepower six, and the 72/82 horsepower 16 Valve four ALL AT THE SAME TIME. The second car has a different steering column and wheel as well. When I get a chance to study it, I’m certain we will find a bunch of other differences. 
 

So you have a 1915 sales catalog showing all of the mentioned model available. Lester-Steele Handbook as well as the Standard Catalog of American Automobiles have no such listing. Must be one offs. I see 1918 has two wheelbases available 137 1/2” and 124 1/2.

[George K]

Forgot to report the 1918’s both have 35x5 wheels and tires.

[edinmass]

1918 models were just identical to 1917’s. 1917 and 1918’s had single plug heads, Eismann magnetos, vacuum tanks, the fancy round headlight lenses, different dash and engine gauges, different steering column and wheel, and did not have cowl vents or cowl parking lights.........all showed in the sales literature. Engine block casting differences are also apparent. My second car is mechanically identical to the 1915 town car currently in  the Michigan. It was on display at the event in Gilmore this summer. The lights, radiator, windshield are all brass. All 1917 & 1918 cars had body tags and sills by Rubay. So it’s definitely not a 17 or 18. Also, 17 & 18 had different carburetors............1915 used a Zenith, see the listing below showing a 1915 16 Valve Four carburetor application. Which is what I have on the car.........that someone used JB Welded to fix the  defect on. There is also one 3/4 ton truck with a 16 Valve Four engine in it. It is also a 1915. One of the interesting things about White Motor Cars is how unique they are........”rule of thumb” just doesn’t apply.
 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, George K said:

Did White offer the 16V4 in their catalog in 1915 or 1916?  What’s the car titled as? Were Kimes and Clark Jr. that wrong.

You don’t see 1928 DV-32’s in the Stutz listing either......and there are two and possibly three of them running  around. A list made in the 70’s and 80’s isn’t going to be definitive. Beverly was a close friend and I wrote and published along with providing  research to her.  Here is a library listing for the HCFI automotive research library, listing the 16 Valve Four in 1914...........since my car is identical to the town car, I’m comfortable with calling it a 1915 also. I think it’s definitive that the HCCA’s own foundation research library has a 1914 16 Valve Four piece of literature in it that the engine was announced and used......and the casting date nails it down also. The Zenith carb listing shows application and engineering info for 1915. It eliminates the question of when the engine was available.......who would list and make parts for something that doesn’t exist? 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Ed:

A Cleveland, Ohio coachbuilder of "California tops", why not?   Those were a practical solution for the Northeast as well where protection from inclement weather and the capability to heat the passenger compartment would be desirable features for costlier prestige cars.   The well-off fell out of love with the open touring faster than the general population and had the wherewithal to indulge in closed car comfort much sooner.   Those sliding beveled glass windows are not only practical but also a rich detail that would have appealed to the upscale customers of the day.

 

Comparing the body design proportions and details of the two Rubay bodies, I'd opine the 1915 may not be the design work of Thomas Hibbard whereas the 1917 definitely is.   The 1917 has just a degree of finesse the 1915 lacks.  

Steve

 

Steve, It’s certainly not a Tom Hibbard design like my 1917. Interestingly I met his grandson at a car show last year in Wellington Florida while showing my first White. He immediately recognized it as his grandfather’s work. Referencing it to the first “barrel side“ Duesenberg body. He gave me the heads up on the article in the American Scientific Frontier magazine article on the special awards Tom Hibbard won with the 1917 Rubay body offerings. They called it the first modern and practical design layout for a motor car ever done. Referencing the radiator/hood/cowl/ and light treatment. I have a copy of the article.

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Fascinating and wonderful stuff!

 

Are you up extremely late? Or extremely early? (No need to answer.)

[edinmass]

Catching a plane, behind on work and chores. Was out of town for weeks, returned for three days, now gone again for Hershey.....still jet lagged. But all is as well as can be expected.

[wayne sheldon]

Safe travels! 

And happy hunting!

(Of course, the best part is the special people you get to spend some time with.)

[George K]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

You don’t see 1928 DV-32’s in the Stutz listing either......and there are two and possibly three of them running  around. A list made in the 70’s and 80’s isn’t going to be definitive. Beverly was a close friend and I wrote and published along with providing  research to her.  Here is a library listing for the HCFI automotive research library, listing the 16 Valve Four in 1914...........since my car is identical to the town car, I’m comfortable with calling it a 1915 also. I think it’s definitive that the HCCA’s own foundation research library has a 1914 16 Valve Four piece of literature in it that the engine was announced and used......and the casting date nails it down also. The Zenith carb listing shows application and engineering info for 1915. It eliminates the question of when the engine was available.......who would list and make parts for something that doesn’t exist? 

 

 

Now a truck I believe as all later White cars are no more than re cloaked trucks. Casting dates are not proof of anything other when that run of castings were struck. I have a car with a 1913 crankcase ,cylinders machined in 1914 but the car was assembled , accounted for by serial #’s , badged in production and sold as a 1915. It just took that long to sell the pieces. Research done any time with really records and contemporary data stand up to scrutiny. All that is needed for your claim is where could I see and buy one in sales literature. Records are kept by accounting departments and the White company said what year that vehicle and model was produced. Cars don’t have birthdays they have date of manufacture and serial #’s to validate same.