The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[George K]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Thanks George, I posted the White photos in my original thread, taken from the shop manual. People have been very generous by sending me stuff......more than you could imagine. I think the odds of finding much new stuff that is helpful is small. I still think that electrical diagrams are the best bet........and there is no guarantee that if one shows up, it will actually be accurate with the diagram or date. The August 15, 1915 statement is the biggest help.......they made their decision to go to only fours........and they wouldn’t have done that until the had an engine they thought was a winner......and having been extensively tested. I’m comfortable that what has been posted will get the car in to HCCA events without any problem. Interestingly, it’s only one tour every few years that I will be close enough to the “restricted date national tours” they do, so 95 percent of all driving and club events were never at risk........I didn’t buy the car because of any particular date........I bought it because I like it, it’s one hell of a machine, they run and drive fantastic, and fill the exact void in my garage and collection that I was looking to fill. I was fantastically surprised with the first car’s performance, and I’m certain I will  be with White number to also........does anything else matter? 

Ed, I thought the text was the most interesting part given this was written by period automotive engineers. If your response to my 15/16 concerns are what you believe why then the defense of your #2 White? By virtue of who you are the HCCA already is waiting with open arms. Hopefully you will review this topic and reread my postings. I believe the bread crumbs I pointed out led to the 1915 White statement.

I hoped though this forum I could share my experience in research which I did to answer my interest in the difficult task of getting real answers. It seems not to be the right format. I would like to see the results of your further documentation of wheelbase. Best regards, George.

[edinmass]

George, all is good. Sometimes in texting and writing things appear with different inflections and are interpreted in multiple ways. The dated piece was great....as was the top information. Your invited to come down and drive both.........if you don’t share you stuff, what good is it. I’m totally comfortable saying it isn’t a 1917..........fortunately the casting date opens the door for HCCA, and that’s nice to have. So, it’s not a 1914..........that leaves 1915 or 1916........which is all good. What is important?The car will be fixed correctly, sorted and serviced, and be back in regular use..........more good news. The wife likes it, and especially the top that can close up........happy wife, happy life. I will continue to post updates regardless of what we can or can not determine. Best, Ed.

[edinmass]

Arrived Hershey at noon, found a bunch of stuff already. 👍👍👍

[George K]

Hi Ed,

This is what you need to nail down those mystery 16V4. Automobile Topics Dec. 9 1916. 

Cheers, George

[edinmass]

I’m guessing that’s the announcement for the New York Auto Show. Which would have been in December of 1916. That’s only the second reference to the valves being on an angle that I have seen. Looking at the engine you can’t detect any angle......so it must be less than five degrees. It must have been an interesting topic of conversation when selling the cars.......”why our special four” is better than a six. Especially in this price category...........4800 dollars plus.........regardless of manufacturer, I would have went for a six back in the day at this price level. Phil called me yesterday, seems we are missing a horn.........I have spent so little time with the car I didn’t notice it. Also looking for a more appropriate tail light, the original was changed over the years. Did manage a few small items...........first was an air hose with guage for the compressors we are making, I like keeping up with the details. Bought a Massachuetts plate for it.........mostly because the color goes great with the car, and finally a license plate topper.......I was shocked to see a topper for my school...........couldn’t pass it up. Found a handful of other treasures in just an hour of looking.......looking forward to  a good day today......weather appears to be perfect. Lots of friends on the field.......the most important reason for attending. I first stepped foot on the fall meet fifty years ago today.........and I’m here with my best friend, who couldn’t believe it was thirty years ago I took him here............time flies, as we are now approaching old age...........it’s been a great ride and good life so far, and we are hoping for another twenty five more times before we take the dirt nap.

Edited October 6, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Also bumped into the “new” American Picker, Mike Wolf’s brother Rob. Saw him a few years ago at Auburn, nice guy........We actually met about seven years ago in Iowa picking a tag sale in a snowstorm! It’s where I bought my Pierce Ice Box, and a 1934 V-12 Club Sedan. Small world.........here is a photo of him shopping at a friends spot, and the ice box.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

When I saw how much Ed paid for that scrap aluminum license plate topper I just about fainted.   Being known as a guy with short arms and long pockets and having him step up makes me think there is a strong market for stuff I would throw out.

[prewarnut]

Ed, in the lower glass cabinet at right is a mascot of a women throwing an arrow over her head. Is that a known Pierce mascot or aftermarket?

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

When I saw how much Ed paid for that scrap aluminum license plate topper I just about fainted.   Being known as a guy with short arms and long pockets and having him step up makes me think there is a strong market for stuff I would throw out.

 

Your so cheap....... is that why you always buy me a happy meal instead of a decent steak? I’ve never been accused of overpaying for anything in my life. 

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, prewarnut said:

Ed, in the lower glass cabinet at right is a mascot of a women throwing an arrow over her head. Is that a known Pierce mascot or aftermarket?

Aftermarket.  The Pierce accessory mascot has a guy standing upright throwing several arrows in a bunch (how that might work I can't imagine).

[DrData]

Ed, The license plate topper is a great find! It will look great on either White

[wayne sheldon]

License plate toppers are a collectable all their own! I know a fellow that must have had many dozens of them! He often swaps them around on his cars, and I saw a bunch of them in his display cabinets when I visited with him one time about ten years ago. He is an avid collector of model T accessories, and the license plate toppers go along with that.

[edinmass]

Fun day at Hershey Wednesday. Saw most of the aristocracy of the car world on the field. AACA director Steve M was kind enough to have a sit down in his new office with me for a few minutes, even though he was extremely busy. Other national directors, West, our distinguished editor was also there, among many others in the hierarchy. The new building is fantastic, and a wonderful statement of how the AACA has helped shape our hobby. Many famous collectors from Pebble, Amelia, St John’s, and all the other big venues were walking the field, and I managed to bump into many of them......Hershey is always a good time

Edited October 7, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Ray…….Thanks! This one’s for you! On the field at Hershey. 

[3macboys]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Ray…….Thanks! This one’s for you! On the field at Hershey. 

Ed,

 

If you are going to keep treating yourself to our whisky we are going to have to move you up to something Different and Interesting to go along with the Whites

 

Cheers,

 

Don

 

[edinmass]

Don, my family foot placed their footprints in Canada in 1605, and I’m the first generation that has had English as a first language. Canadian Rye is a birthright of the men in my family. 👍👍

 

Gaspe is our hometown,

[edinmass]

Found the impossible at Hershey, again. White #2 was missing the air compressor.......which we have made, and the correct Bosch Dual - Twin Spark Magneto. Found one Thursday...........and in good working condition. This unit fires eight plugs.........two per cylinder. The down side, I would pay a years college tuition for some young folks! 
 

PS- this magneto was used by Mercer, Simplex, Loco, and possibly one or two others, in two versions. The early units were not water tight and had issues, the second type which you see here is the “improved” model. With the above applications, it’s easy to see why they are so ridiculously expensive. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:03 AM, 1912Staver said:

There is a good chance the Delco dash switch will have a stamped in date code. That might help date the bodywork.

The switch in White number two as shown above was available and being used by Cadillac in 1915 for their new V-8. I also found a 1915 White sales catalog for 1915 at Hershey, showing the 4-45 series and 6-60 straight six series were being offered by White in 1915. The catalog was beautiful, multi color hard bound, but missing two 1/2 pages that were cut out, and it was six hundred dollars, so I passed. The interesting thing........the catalog showed the ignition switch on the steering column on the 45 & 60 horsepower cars like my 1917, so the setup on White number two is definitely not standard for White in any year from 1915-1917. I have no clue if the in dash vibrator works on car number two......yet. Now that I have the correct magneto, we shall see. Also found a much more appropriate tail light for the car, and I will remove the mid 20’s truck tail light currently on the car. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Thr switch in White number two as shown above was available and being used by Cadillac in 1915 for their new V-8. I also found a 1915 White sales catalog for 1915 at Hershey, showing the 4-45 series and 6-60 straight six series were being offered by White in 1915. The catalog was beautiful, multi color hard bound, but missing two 1/2 pages that were cut out, and it was six hundred dollars, so I passed. The interesting thing........the catalog showed the ignition switch on the steering column on the 45 & 60 horsepower cars like my 1917, so the setup on White number two is definitely not standard for White in any year from 1915-1917. I have no clue if the in dash vibrator works on car number two......yet. Now that I have the correct magneto, we shall see. Also found a much more appropriate tail light for the car, and I will remove the mid 20’s truck tail light currently on the car. 

Ed, When you get home and settled I would like to send some data regarding your magneto. Best George.

[edinmass]

Thanks George, I know it’s the second generation of the original. The upgrade was to make it waterproof. I have this..........

[edinmass]

Anyone have more Bosch number charts with dates?

[SC38dls]

Did you check the backside ? 😳

dave s 

[edinmass]

11 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Did you check the backside ? 😳

dave s 

Im in Hershey, on my way to Massachuetts. Can’t check it for a week.

[yachtflame]

On 10/4/2021 at 9:50 PM, 95Cardinal said:

I don’t see the dog collar!

[edinmass]

Great site that has everything you need to know about magneto’s.......

 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

A interesting side note...........growing up in Springfield Mass, there were several key companies that were part of ever day life..........names like Crane Plumbing, Westinghouse, Chapman Valve, Ludlow Manufacturing, Smith and Wesson, and.......American Bosch. Bosch was in town for over 150 years, closing in 1986. Smith and Wesson announced they were going away last week..........after 150 years also. Most of the families I knew had members working in all these plants......the jobs literally built the towns and infrastructure here.........and now they are all gone. A sad legacy of American manufacturing moving overseas for cheaper labor...........here is a fun advertisement for “The Bosch” as we referred to it...........I’m about as young as you can be and relate to all those companies today. My grandmother started in the mills at 12 years old..........the oldest child of 19. Things sure do change! 
 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Bitter irony in a 1919 advertisement.

 

What hath one hundred years wrought?

[George K]

Ed here’s a interesting review in late 1918.

[edinmass]

Thanks George, I have seen that in the past and printed it out......but didn’t get a chance to post it.

Edited October 10, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Thanks George, I have seen that in the past and printed it out......but didn’t get a chance to post it.

Ed, Tripped over this. You said you have unusual brakes on White 1. Check this out. You can water cool them also.

[edinmass]

I have seen water cooled brakes only once.......on a Benz of about 1907.

[George K]

10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I have seen water cooled brakes only once.......on a Benz of about 1907.

You can make steam with your gas White.

[edinmass]

When driving a 16V4 White speed, if you didn’t have religion before you got in it, you will after you hit the brakes! You will also begin to talk to yourself! Been there, done that.

[wayne sheldon]

17 minutes ago, edinmass said:

When driving a 16V4 White speed, if you didn’t have religion before you got in it, you will after you hit the brakes! You will also begin to talk to yourself! Been there, done that.

 

Did something like that once with my 1915 Studebaker six! Heavy traffic, almost a highway with traffic signals. I was pushing faster than I liked trying to not be too slow. Fortunately, I kept enough room in front of me and planning well ahead, but a light fooled me and went yellow with me just too far back. I made LOTS of screeching noise (Maybe it was the tires? Maybe it was me?), and stopped only a few feet over the limit line. Plenty short of cross traffic which was just beginning to move.

Two wheel brakes on fast antiques are fun! I hope that is the closest I ever get to can't make the stop.

[George K]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

When driving a 16V4 White speed, if you didn’t have religion before you got in it, you will after you hit the brakes! You will also begin to talk to yourself! Been there, done that.

Your description gave me the best laugh I’ve had in years. Thanks. I truly respect your dedication and enthusiasm. Keep it up 😭

[Robert G. Smits]

Ed if my memory is correct there was a pre-15 RR on a Reliability tour in the Florida panhandle several years ago that had been fitted with front disc brakes for safe touring. I even have a photo of it somewhere??  Have you considered this option for stopping?  Just a thought

[SC38dls]

Ed, you can feel that way sometimes when you are not even at speed. Ask me how I know! 
 

[George K]

Ed, The water feature would of been handy when as you described driving White 1 and starting a brake grease fire. Self extinguishing. 

[wayne sheldon]

External band brakes don't like to be wet. So water cooling external band brakes would need to be done carefully. The 1925 Studebaker coach I had many years ago had two wheel external band brakes on the rear wheels for the service brake, and a hand operated drive-shaft brake for for parking and emergency. I drove the car in the rain a few times, and was always prepared to use the hand brake for stopping. Usually, planning ahead, I would press the pedal/service brake ahead of planned stops to dry it before needing to do the planned stop. That usually did the trick, but not always. 

I didn't drive the car often in the rain, and being careful and planning ahead an extra amount always worked out fine.  Just more of the special joy of earlier cars. By 1930, almost everyone had four wheel internal drum brakes. Hydraulic or mechanical, both were well engineered.

[George K]

Saw this online. Dated 1916.