The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

George, please ID the source....and edition if magazine. Thanks.

 

Interesting that it states two years ago, we committed to a four........that would be sometime in 1914.........which makes sense with the 1914 & 1915 engine casting dates. Best guess is war production cut into the speed that they developed the 16 valve.

 

 

Going in a better direction! 👍👍👍

Edited October 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Found this on eBay also...........all 1917 White cars had Eismann magneto’s. They didn’t make a dual - twin spark, or even a dual. 
 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

First time I have seen a 45hp car listed in a 1916 ad or literature.

 

Look close at the ad! A White touring car in Palm Beach! 👍👍👍

Edited October 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:17 PM, edinmass said:

I think the 16V4 was probably a back burner or slow roll project........from war work and trucks.

 

You can tell that ad was placed before the US entered the war. When they did, the assets of the Bosch company in the US were seized and sold – hence we have the "American Bosch" company. It wasn't an American subsidiary of the German company, it was a separate company with access to all the Bosch facilities and patents.

[George K]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

 

You can tell that ad was placed before the US entered the war. When they did, the assets of the Bosch company in the US were seized and sold – hence we have the "American Bosch" company. It wasn't an American subsidiary of the German company, it was a separate company with access to all the Bosch facilities and patents.

That is why companies like Berling, Splitdorf and Eisemann jumped into manufacturing aircraft magneto’s. German Bosch cut us off. 

[George K]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

Found this on eBay also...........all 1917 White cars had Eismann magneto’s. They didn’t make a dual - twin spark, or even a dual. 
 

 

I believe I sent you this before but here it is again. April 23 1917 

[JV Puleo]

I hadn't thought of that...but I wonder if they cut us off or if it was a result of the effective halt of all German overseas trade. With the Royal Navy controlling the Atlantic and the German High Seas Fleet effectively blockaded, very few German ships went to sea. By mid-1915 Germany had no overseas trade worth considering. I'd always thought the German Bosh mags for the US were actually made here - which is why the American Bosch company could simply continue them. Chances are the German company registered all their patents in the US (as well as in Europe) so when the assets were sold, the US rights to the patents went with them.

[George K]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

George, please ID the source....and edition if magazine. Thanks.

 

Interesting that it states two years ago, we committed to a four........that would be sometime in 1914.........which makes sense with the 1914 & 1915 engine casting dates. Best guess is war production cut into the speed that they developed the 16 valve.

 

 

Going in a better direction! 👍👍👍

No doubt they had test mules during experiments. Usually chassis only. The design change to unit construction would have meant a new chassis as earlier White’s were all amidship transmissions.

[edinmass]

I'm guessing the mid mount trans was a cone clutch?

 

Wiring and ignition books all show a single plug straight magnito like on the White #1.............all using Eismann Model EM units.......which I have not seen or found since 18 months ago.....

Edited October 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

27 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I'm guessing the mid mount trans was a cone clutch?

 

Wiring and ignition books all show a single plug straight magnito like on the White #1.............all using Eismann Model EM units.......which I have not seen or found since 18 months ago.....

That’s a correction of their own reporting at the time. 1916 White 4-30 & 4-45 show Bosch single ignition. Both show disc clutches and separate transmission.

[edinmass]

10 minutes ago, George K said:

That’s a correction of their own reporting at the time. 1916 White 4-30 & 4-45 show Bosch single ignition. Both show disc clutches and separate transmission.

 

 

Those should be 18 volt cars.........starter, generator, ect.........Entz was the manufacturer of them. 

[George K]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Those should be 18 volt cars.........starter, generator, ect.........Entz was the manufacturer of them. 

They list the starter and generator for both models as White-21 voltage 

[edinmass]

21 volts is new to me! The more I dig up on White cars, the more convoluted and confused everything seems to be. I did see something on a single disk clutch in oil from early/mid 1914 onwards for 30,45,and 60 hp cars. 

[George K]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

21 volts is new to me! The more I dig up on White cars, the more convoluted and confused everything seems to be. I did see something on a single disk clutch in oil from early/mid 1914 onwards for 30,45,and 60 hp cars. 

Not a good photo.

[edinmass]

Strange.........never seen anything like it. Are there any other cars on the chart with 21 volts?

[Dandy Dave]

Here is what the clutch looks like in the parts book of the model 15 Truck built 1915 though 1925.  Also looking though the White car book I have that lists the 30 and 40 HP 4 Cylinder, and the 60 HP 6 Cylinder cars here is a Wiring diagram but it stops at the wire that goes to the mag. I found another diagram of the clutch also in the car book.  I assume that it goes to a switch that would ground it out in off position. This book would have to be from the period that had White cars equipped with starters and also before the stopped building the 60 HP 6. We're right about in the era your looking for of 1913-1916 I would think. The book is not dated. It was printed by the Victor Brown Printing Company.  Yes, the photos are sideways. If I try to set them upright they get chopped off.   

 

 

 

 

[George K]

Here’s a close  up.

[edinmass]

The clutch and flywheel on the car is totally different. I’m guessing that set up was used on trucks well into the late 20’s with the 45 hp truck engine. 

[Dandy Dave]

Images from the car book with the wiring diagram. Includes starter data. Hope this may be of some help Ed. Dandy Dave!

[edinmass]

White #1 is a cookie cutter of what they were advertising in mid to late 1916 as the 1917 16V4 in all the catalogs. White #2 doesn’t conform to anything I have seen so far. We plan on pulling The rear wheels and axles to service the brakes in the bearings........ maybe that will give us an indication of the rear being car, truck, or some hybrid or experimental unit. With Bosch in turmoil from the WWI war problems, it seems to make sense that they swapped over in mid to late 1916.........Eismann Model EM mags seem to not have survived. I have been looking for 18 months and nothing so far........and no one seems to be the expert or go to guy on them. The Bosch unit in car #1 seems perfect, but I will replace it with a correct unit if possible. Back in the day, magneto’s were like tires........and changed out often with anything that would fit.

[edinmass]

Chain drive starter on the truck, on the cars, the starter actually was a giant unit on a hinge that would swing into place ...........I haven’t seen one in person yet. Interesting item on eBay that I will stake screen shots and post........

[Dandy Dave]

15 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The clutch and flywheel on the car is totally different. I’m guessing that set up was used on trucks well into the late 20’s with the 45 hp truck engine. 

You jump faster than I can get this stuff loaded Ed. In the old days of snail mail we would wait for weeks for a reply. The second set of photos and wiring diagram are from a White car book that I have. Not truck Ed. White Gasoline Motor Cars on the cover. And yes, the clutch differs some what from the car book. Still it is the same basic design weather a 30, 40, or 60 HP Automobile.   

Edited October 11, 2021 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[mike6024]

What does "Neutral to Battery" mean? There is also Positive and Negative to Battery.

 

 

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, Dandy Dave said:

You jump faster than I can get this stuff loaded Ed. In the old days of snail mail we would wait for weeks for a reply. The second set of photos and wiring diagram are from a White car book that I have. Not truck Ed. 

 

Just got home from Hershey, so I’m just catching up with a few things. The car clutch you posted is different, guessing it’s 1914-1916 car.......I appreciate all of it, as it helps me understand what they were making earlier and the changes as they went along. Car production in early 16 had to be concentrated on the Yellowstone and National Park orders........some 300 units........with war work going on, cars couldn’t have been a priority. My guess is they really were interested in the bus business.........and the people who would ride on them back in 1917 were going to be wealthy and influential people......so White buses in the parks were obviously great for business.

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

What does "Neutral to Battery" mean? There is also Positive and Negative to Battery.

 

 

Single, two wire, and three wire systems from back in the day. Much of this is new to me also. Having never worked on a two wire system before. It’s all much more industrial or nautical than automotive. Interesting learning curve.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Something else from the car book to ponder. How big is your Fuel tank?

 

[edinmass]

Six different size fuel tanks for cars all produced in one year........

[George K]

Saw this and found the double magneto interesting.

[Dandy Dave]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Six different size fuel tanks for cars all produced in one year........

Yup. Need a shot of that fine Canadian Whiskey to ponder why. If I was closer I'd join ya. Dandy Dave!

[George K]

What’s the wheelbase on #2?

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, George K said:

What’s the wheelbase on #2?

I will have Phil check it tomorrow. The 1917 car at Yellowstone if it’s one of the original cars would be a May or June 1916 delivery date. The Stewart Warner’s vacuum tank is like my number one car.......the dual ignition is referring to battery/mag and I’m guessing not a dual plug set up. Warner is also different than my 1917 as it’s all L-N. Then again, maybe they built special order cars for the parks.........I’m told they were not over drive units, but a four speed with direct in fourth......makes sense for the park, and the roads and hills they would have encountered. I contacted the museum in Yellowstone, but they are still shut down due to covid. I’m waiting for photos, and under hood shots. Best guess is it’s a 4-45 chassis. Just looking at the fuel tanks, it’s obvious White could and would build anything, and low or unusual orders for production weren’t difficult for them to deal with back then. I think the larger question is......did White ever really build anything resembling a production car, or were they mostly batch, fleet, and special orders? Certainly by late 1917, they were advertised as “all built to order”. That had to be the result of war work. 

[Dandy Dave]

30 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

What does "Neutral to Battery" mean? There is also Positive and Negative to Battery.

 

 

I believe it goes to ground. It appears that all the lights are wired so that the "grounds" or negative/ neutral side goes to a lug instead of being grounded to the frame like is normally seen. Neutral in AC power is the ground side of the circuit, or the side that is not live. Yes. the wires are in a loop to the lights. This makes sense in an Auto that had wood in the body as it would not ground to complete the circuit. Dandy Dave!     

[edinmass]

1916 Catalog pages......beautifully done, amazing for the era. They were setting the standard for years to come........

[edinmass]

35 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

Something else from the car book to ponder. How big is your Fuel tank?

 

I think my tank on the first one is 24 gallons, I have no idea on number two......yet. 

 

 

[Dandy Dave]

42 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Dave, is there more to that wiring diagram?

 

Could the starter seriously be 21 volts?

 

It looks to me that there may be 4 bulbs wired in series? IF you had bulbs that could have a voltage across them of 6 volts maximum without burning out. And you had a 24 volt battery, then you would wire 4 bulbs in series, because that would mean each bulb would only be getting 6 volts.

 

 

meaning they are wired in series.

Yes. That is all I have. The thing is the bulbs only show 1 filament. The book is pretty basic and not a lot of plates to go with the written directions. Looks like this could be a learning curve for all of us. Dandy Dave.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Here is a book describing the Leece-Neville ignition and generator. You need to page ahead to Page 11. It is covered on pages 11 through about 20. Click link, then page ahead until you see it.

 

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Automobile_Engineering/ZpBAAAAAIAAJ?gbpv=1

 

 

[1912Staver]

Some of the Eismann mag's I have seen are made from a very poor alloy. Almost worse than GM's pot metal. They crumble just sitting in your hands. I would guess there are almost no usable survivors of the ones made that way. Somewhere I have an Eismann catalog. I will see if I can find it. And see if it lists the EM model.

Edited October 11, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Yes, all early ones seem to be falling apart. I was hoping to get a unit for the shelf, even if It can’t be used. 

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I will have Phil check it tomorrow. The 1917 car at Yellowstone if it’s one of the original cars would be a May or June 1916 delivery date. The Stewart Warner’s vacuum tank is like my number one car.......the dual ignition is referring to battery/mag and I’m guessing not a dual plug set up. Warner is also different than my 1917 as it’s all L-N. Then again, maybe they built special order cars for the parks.........I’m told they were not over drive units, but a four speed with direct in fourth......makes sense for the park, and the roads and hills they would have encountered. I contacted the museum in Yellowstone, but they are still shut down due to covid. I’m waiting for photos, and under hood shots. Best guess is it’s a 4-45 chassis. Just looking at the fuel tanks, it’s obvious White could and would build anything, and low or unusual orders for production weren’t difficult for them to deal with back then. I think the larger question is......did White ever really build anything resembling a production car, or were they mostly batch, fleet, and special orders? Certainly by late 1917, they were advertised as “all built to order”. That had to be the result of war work. 

You will know if it’s a 4-45 by the two crossmembers that suspend the separate transmission as they are above the top of the side rails. Saw this photo and it’s crying out to be rescued. LA museum owns and held at the Peterson. Museum.

[edinmass]

I went to the Peterson a few weeks ago, and had arranged to see the car in the vault.........let’s just say, a courtesy that I extended to them was not reciprocated......and I didn’t get in........yet. I will, that I can guarantee.

 

The car in the photo is a 1917 16V4, although they don’t even know what it is.........

 

Best guess, the rims are missing as they are 27 inch and impossible to find for decades. Someone probably bought the car, stole the rims off of it, and then most likely donated the car for a big tax wright off. It will be justice if they declared the car surplus to the mission statement and sold it off to an active hobby member. Thanking I was being a nice guy, I was actually making extra parts for this car when I was making them for mine. I thought it would be a nice gesture to give the museum the extra parts, for allowing me to go over it. It never happened. 

 

 

They should give it to the Yellowstone Transportation Museum, it belongs there. 
 

I could opine much more......but it would only be beating a dead horse.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)