'48 Cadillac Sixteen dream

[Mahoning63]

Daydreaming of the '38-40 engine in a '48 streamlined sedan on 133 wb, the 7 extra inches added forward of firewall. Not sure how the front should look but it would need to be very classy.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

Great looking car!  Unfortunately that motor is unobtainable unless you have one stuck away.  I have been looking for one for over 30 years so I can restore my 38 parts car that  I purchased with a badly cracked block in 1988.  They were all used up making 90 series convertibles our of 75 series cars

Edited September 8, 2020 by Robert G. Smits
Addition (see edit history)

[edinmass]

A running and driving 1939 Caddy 16 sold over the weekend for 10k. It had been driven a few hundred miles recently, cosmetics on the car were very poor.

[Robert G. Smits]

I wish I would have known!!!

[Mahoning63]

Glad you like it. The car would need three donors: '48 Sedanette, '39-40 Sixteen and '50 Buick or Olds 98 Town Sedan, all in fair shape at best so as not to destroy history. The Town Sedan is very rare but its side window frames would fit nicely, see update. The previous image had longer front doors (from 60 Special?) and shorter rear doors than the 62 sedan.

 

This version has 62's entire front door and rear door lower. I think the long hood makes the car but the stock hood would have to be reshaped to smoothly meld in the extension.  Would the '38-40 grill look good grafted in? Probably not, but something would need done even if it was only swapping out the egg-crate grill inner bars with a finer mesh similar to Sixteens of old. Would want to use the '50 Buick's one-piece windshield and rear glass.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, Robert G. Smits said:

I wish I would have known!!!

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af20/auburn-fall/lots/l0092-1939-cadillac-series-90-v-16-seven-passenger-sedan-by-fleetwood/887394

 

11K all said and done for a worn and needing restoration but respectable enough running/driving car that was also complete less wheels and hubaps (they look 1941 15" or could be a 1941 16" Cap on the proper 1939 16" wheel)

[Matt Harwood]

18 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af20/auburn-fall/lots/l0092-1939-cadillac-series-90-v-16-seven-passenger-sedan-by-fleetwood/887394

 

11K all said and done for a worn and needing restoration but respectable enough running/driving car that was also complete less wheels and hubaps (they look 1941 15" or could be a 1941 16" Cap on the proper 1939 16" wheel)

 

Someone spent some money on that car. I see a new wiring harness and the engine looks far fresher than the rest of the car. Not quite to where you could just throw tires on it and drive it as a survivor, though. Is it a free engine for a V16 restoration? A parts car? Even restored, these are only $60,000 cars at best. Find a 75 Series convertible coupe for $85K and do an engine swap? What do, what do?

[Robert G. Smits]

Any ideas on how to find out who the buyer was?

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Someone spent some money on that car. I see a new wiring harness and the engine looks far fresher than the rest of the car. Not quite to where you could just throw tires on it and drive it as a survivor, though. Is it a free engine for a V16 restoration? A parts car? Even restored, these are only $60,000 cars at best. Find a 75 Series convertible coupe for $85K and do an engine swap? What do, what do?

Walter, usually bought pretty decent cars and then upgraded them to be locally usable (perhaps not really dependable, but they generally could at least go around the block a couple of times without a tow truck involved and I would say the Franklin's a little more so than the rest, but then again they are a little more simple of  car too) - Yes, he probably spent a few thousand on it.   I think 10K allows plenty of options - technically if we were in 2019, I would have guessed a sale between 24K & 27K (not having seen it in person) and that would have really tied the hands as to doing needed work.  Still though you are correct, it is an expensive car to restore and if you cut corners then you get hurt and if you do what it needs to the quality of AACA/CCCA National  Award status then you get REALLY get hurt.  

 

Sidenote: I do think though people should keep their hands off of the remaining 75 Series cars - they have a nice value all on their own and the added costs of conversion really do not substantially outweigh keeping hands off.   The comments from Mr. Smits was a reminder to never buy a Cadillac V-16 if it does not have its original build sheet. 

[padgett]

"the long hood makes the car" then you need a 69-72 Grand Prix. Had the longest hood in the industry. 69 also had Kindig-IT handles first. I had a 70 with a 4-speed.

 

 

 

[Robert G. Smits]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

o not substantially outweigh keeping hands off.   The comments from Mr. Smits was a reminder to never buy a Cadillac V-16 if it does not have its original build sheet. 

Several years ago the CCCA did a survey of 1938 V-16 convertible coupes and found either 6 or 8 more registered than Cadillac produced in 1938

[Mahoning63]

Re: long hood... absolutely. Several years ago I used it to balance out the raised rear of a '69 Olds. Streamliners are helped by a long hood.

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

Not sure how they measure but I have removed hoods from both of these cars, if the 1971 Mustang is not longer I would be shocked.  The Mustang is missing the nose cone like the Grand Prix.  With the Mustang one slight bump and you have a huge useless banana for a hood, and it hits before the bumper.  I would not be surprised if Ford lengthen the hood 11 inches in 1971 to compete with the Grand Prix.

 

 

The 1971 Mustang hood, standing on the floor, so including the curve by the windshield is almost 6 ft, it is exactly 70.5 inches.  That is a ridiculous hood, with the wheelbase of 109, over half the distance is hood.  To be honest I was hoping some exotic American car would have the longest hood.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well what I heard was that Pete told Jack to make the GP hood longer than the Lincoln Continental Mk III (longest that the time) and it is, by about 3/8".

 

ps that picture is deceptive, the GP was on a 118" wheelbase (A-Special) and the 71 Mustang was 109".

Edited September 9, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Had the popularity of fastback sedans grown in those postwar years, Misterl might have such a Cadillac created to reprise the Sixteen Aerodynamic Coupe in an updated style.  The long hood paired with the elegant, unbroken sweep of the top-line, lifted tail and crouching haunches of those C-Bodies gives this Cadillac verve in spades.  Bets if Fleetwood built a small, handcrafted run of these, there would have been a waiting list. 

[Cadillac Fan]

On 9/8/2020 at 8:26 PM, Robert G. Smits said:

Several years ago the CCCA did a survey of 1938 V-16 convertible coupes and found either 6 or 8 more registered than Cadillac produced in 1938

Significantcars.com has a 1939 v16 in similar condition to the RM Auburn car.  Wonder what they are asking?

[padgett]

Same-same for tripower GTOs. More than ever left the factory.

[Ed Luddy]

That V16 39 is a whole lotta car for chump change. But as I couldn't afford the resto cost I've been dreaming of what to do with it if I owned it.

If you spent another $10k on it for mechanical and drivability, clean up and aftermarket seat covers it would be a showstopper at every cruise event!

[billorn]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:35 PM, Robert G. Smits said:

Any ideas on how to find out who the buyer was?

 

Looks like Shawn Miller ended up with it. Listed as $best offer on his website.

[padgett]

Were any '39 V-16s built with AC ?

[John_Mereness]

3 hours ago, billorn said:

 

Looks like Shawn Miller ended up with it. Listed as $best offer on his website.

Yes, saw that last night on facebook - www.significantcars.com 

[John_Mereness]

15 minutes ago, padgett said:

Were any '39 V-16s built with AC ?

No, AC is a 1941 thing for Cadillac and then it does not really appear again until 1953 with I believe major 1955 being the launch year. 

[alsancle]

Since I spend time with a tape measure,  I can tell you that a long hood in the Classic period is usually 72 inches or longer.

[alsancle]

I see he grabbed the BB Stutz also.  That would have made a fantastic parts car at 10k.

[alsancle]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:59 PM, Robert G. Smits said:

I wish I would have known!!!

 

If everybody knew and was standing there with a paddle then it wouldn't have sold for 10k.

[John_Mereness]

18 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

If everybody knew and was standing there with a paddle then it wouldn't have sold for 10k.

Not everyone likes the auction format - I rarely advise a client to buy a car at auction (not because I dislike or like the format, but because I would rather deal with an owner, take the car on a drive, do it at my/our own pace, and ...).

[Robert G. Smits]

48 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

If everybody knew and was standing there with a paddle then it wouldn't have sold for 10k.

You are correct.  Bidding would not have stopped at 10K if I were there.  With all the online auction activity it is hard to keep abreast of what is on the market today, especially when you don't have room for another car or time for another project.

[Pfeil]

On 9/8/2020 at 6:08 PM, Graham Man said:

Not sure how they measure but I have removed hoods from both of these cars, if the 1971 Mustang is not longer I would be shocked.  The Mustang is missing the nose cone like the Grand Prix.  With the Mustang one slight bump and you have a huge useless banana for a hood, and it hits before the bumper.  I would not be surprised if Ford lengthen the hood 11 inches in 1971 to compete with the Grand Prix.

 

The 69 GP has a longer hood than the one you are showing. The beak goes all the way to the bumper unlike the car above.

[Mahoning63]

Struggling with the front. First doubles the number of vertical bars, second borrows overall shape from other GM cars, particularly '40 Buick.  Neither have the presence of my favorite, the '37.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[padgett]

I'd like a 49 torpedoback 2-door with a 57 grill and rubber tipped dagmars. Gues that would be a restomod so might as well go for dual quads and a '59 dash as well

 

ps had both a 70 GP with Muncie (open rear end and nicknamed "Asphyxiation" and a 69 with a Kendig-It door handle (think before he was born) & THM-400. GPs also had 15x7 Rally IIs when most everything else had 14x6s.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

I'd like a 49 torpedoback 2-door with a 57 grill and rubber tipped dagmars. Gues that would be a restomod so might as well go for dual quads and a '59 dash as well

 

ps had both a 70 GP with Muncie (open rear end and nicknamed "Asphyxiation" and a 69 with a Kendig-It door handle (think before he was born) & THM-400. GPs also had 15x7 Rally IIs when most everything else had 14x6s.

 

 

I'm driving to Phoenix this morning from my house in Prescott and just a mile from my house a 69 Grand Prix come up next to me. A midnight green SJ (a 426!) and looked all original. Don't run into one of those every day.

[bryankazmer]

I loved your "what if" explorations over in Packardland.

 

A note from the Engineering Dept ( Styling's traditional enemy, but not as bad as Accounting).  There is  a minimum allowable distance between the rear seat cushion and the headliner.

Consider a possible wheelbase increase so the rear seat height is not impacted by the rear axle.  This will give "swoop room" for the rear slope.

The V16 didn't have a lot of design cues vs the regular cars.  Maybe a way to incorporate the graduated fender chrome of some years into the trim?

[Mahoning63]

Glad you liked them! OK, here's what the Design Center came back with, benefiting from a little help from Accounting. (disclosure: I was the Studio cost lead for latest Blazer and mid-engine Vette so am sympathetic to appearance, packaging and affordability). Here's a progression, first image being the production fastback roof on 62's 126 wb, with no axle-to-dash extension. This would be an easy car to build today if all the parts where there.

 

Second image lengthens the chassis 7 inches per 60 Special. In other words, it is the 60 Special with a fastback roof, minus the 60S's 4 inch longer rear overhang and side trim. Rear seat could have been positioned anywhere along a 7 inch length, enabling good headroom while increasing legroom vs. 62 (and 60S?). I did some photo comparisons and turns out 60S doors are same width as 62, moved forward 7 inches relative to rear axle. 60S rear fender bulge's forward termination point relative to rear axle is same as 62.

 

Third image adds the 7 inch axle-to-dash extension from earlier images, creating a whopping 140 inch wheelbase. I like this car, has a massive look about it in keeping with traditional Sixteens.

 

Fourth is one approach at working in your suggested trim progression. Enjoy!

 

EDIT: updated the last image to include triple trim on rear fenders too.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

Please don't take offence this being the AACA forum where the topic is STOCK cars and no modifications.

At one time I thought if I could get my hands on a 1938-40 flathead V-16 I would put it into a "A" body 1949-1952 Pontiac. The main reason for the Pontiac was the wheelbase. The 1949-1952 "A" body Chevrolet had a 115" wheelbase, the "A" body 1949-1951 Oldsmobile had a 119.5 wheelbase, but the Pontiac was on a 120" wheelbase. What made all these "A" bodies different was in the length of the frame and body from the firewall forward. Pontiac had a straight eight and that probably accounted for the longer nose plus the ride was better and less choppy with the longer wheelbase.

 

 

Plenty of room in length for a sixteen;

The only trick is getting a four speed HydraMatic to match. 

    

[John S.]

I love the whole concept of a V-16 under the hood of the Series 62. I would lengthen the hood, and leave the rest of the car as it came from the factory, just as your opening photo shows. Great idea. John

[Mahoning63]

Thanks John.

 

Re: A-bodies, we are thinking along same lines. About five years ago I did a very rough mod on 49 Chevy fastback sedan to see what a late 30's Sixteen grill might look like. Concluded that the headlights looked best inset. There's an idea for the white car.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Mahoning63 said:

Thanks John.

 

Re: A-bodies, we are thinking along same lines. About five years ago I did a very rough mod on 49 Chevy fastback sedan to see what a late 30's Sixteen grill might look like. Concluded that the headlights looked best inset. There's an idea for the white car.

 

Uh, I don't think that looks not even nearly as good as GM's Cadillac studio's artist and craftsmen had done with the 48. It's putting years ( back to the middle 30's ) on a vehicle style that would shape future GM cars, some like Chevrolet and Pontiac through 1954.