1929 Studebaker President 8 Roadster

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, studeq said:

Actually the "Speedway" option was a '31 President roadster only offering (see sales letter below). I covered this topic in my article on the '31s in the May/June 1997 issue of the Antique Studebaker Review. It was not carried over to '32. In 1933 the long wheelbase 336 c.i. President was an actual model name. Confusing but needs to be clarified.  

Which zone is Canada?  K? or X?

 

Craig

[Bob Roller]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 12:36 AM, Ozstatman said:

Last lot of photos and link to auction Site  which has a few more photos.

 

And Frank, glad you bought the Studebaker, one of the guys bidding against you ended up buying my Packard after the auction!

 

[Bob Roller]

Built for a rural mail carrier?

[Touts]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:57 AM, edinmass said:

I saw the cut under the doors, but the floor pan in the rear is factory, 100 percent sure of it. Sure looks like someone added in a section behind the doors, but the overall lines look very good.......better than the construction........which is very unusual as modifications usually look bad.....almost 100 percent of the time. Just doesn’t add up the lines look as good as they do, but the “stretch”  has poor attention to detail. I think the story is compounded by the possibility of another car being involved.........also,  I have seen factory cars and coach work reworked to use up an end of year or end of model chassis and coach work. That may partially be the case here. 

Hi Edinmass 

I have taken some additional information photos as requested for consideration.

It  definitely was not constructed by a robot 🤔

 

[29StudiePrez]

4 hours ago, studeq said:

Actually the "Speedway" option was a '31 President roadster only offering (see sales letter below). I covered this topic in my article on the '31s in the May/June 1997 issue of the Antique Studebaker Review. It was not carried over to '32. In 1933 the long wheelbase 336 c.i. President was an actual model name. Confusing but needs to be clarified.  

 

Richard,

Glad your following this thread. Yeah my memory and knowledge of the Speedway never was the greatest in the world. But glad your on this thread following. And while you are I have a question for you. The only numbers we do have on this car and solid info is it is on a 131" wb and the engine # is FB10336. So my question for you is this, Did the FA President body style with the rounded radiator shell only have "FA" serial numbered motors and when the radiator style changed to the flat squared off style (3rd series) was the FB engine then introduced and only used on that style?  So the question is did the FB motor coincide with the 3rd series styling?

 

 

[Touts]

There were some discussions  in regards to the timber used in the construction, I’ve added some additional photos.

1. Timber used on flooring around footwell.

2. Area Rear of Front Door.

3. Taken through Golf Door.

[29StudiePrez]

On 3/22/2020 at 9:25 AM, Mark Huston said:

I previously owned a 1928 FA President 1st series.   The 1928 FA President was built on the 131 inch wheelbase chassis.    Here are pictures of that car for comparison to your 131 inch chassis roadster.

 

Frank,

In answer to your question about wondering what the Hood ornament was that would fit onto the neck of your current incorrect radiator, its the one in the pic above which was called the Atalanta Goddess as seen here on this Early style FA President which pre-dated your FA which yours has the 29-30 Wing Style. (Also can be seen is the radiator badge you have which is also incorrect)

[edinmass]

New photos were helpful. Would like to see photos of the sill, both sides, front to back. Construction from the doors back doesn’t look like it was done in  South Bend. Sheet metal looks to be well done, woodwork, not so much(when new) and later work was poorly done. The question now is, was it built down under? (Not sure, but I have a suspicion.) photo of all seat cushion bottoms also please. Having another twenty photos of the entire body and woodwork from the inside, well lit, and I think we can come to some firm conclusions. 👍

Edited March 26, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Based on the quality of the wood framework/floorboards and the car being RHD has any thought been given to the car coming  out of South America? Bob 

Edited March 26, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Ozstatman]

Spoke with the guy who "looked after" the Aussie collection this Roadster was auctioned from. Apparently it was already in the collection by the time he went to work there and doesn't know anything about its past.

[29StudiePrez]

3 hours ago, Touts said:

There were some discussions  in regards to the timber used in the construction, I’ve added some additional photos.

1. Timber used on flooring around footwell.

2. Area Rear of Front Door.

3. Taken through Golf Door.

 

Frank, 

For comparison I went out to the stable and took out the bottom seat in the rumble seat of my '29 President and took some pictures. The lock on the golf door isn't working properly so I wasn't able to open it yet to get pictures. However I did get get pictures of the seat compartment area. Unlike the metal pan under the seat on yours, i don't have a large raised bubble or the square sections. There is a slight raised center area but not very noticeable and the rest of the metal floor area has straight lines that follow the width of the body. Where the front edge of the seat rests there is about a 2" metal border strip that the front of the seat pushes up against when you sit it down into the floor pan. You will also see in the pictures that the water run off channeling which goes all the way around the compartment edge goes down to the back of the bottom of the back seat near the lid hinges. Theses factory hinges as you can see are not the same as yours has. There is a metal border strip that runs thw length of the bottom of the back seat. Its acts as another border to butt the back of the bottom of the seat against it as well as this prevents any water from coming into the floor pan area. You will also notice there is a long bent flanged stripping that is on the edge of the lip of the rumble seat lid. Its about 3/4" wide and the channeling is about 1" wide and 1" deep. When the lid is closed and water goes into the crack, the 3/4" angled edging on the edge of the lid deflects the water down into the channel and away from the lid. The water then flows down the channel down to where the hinges are and that back corner and the metal strip along the bottom back that the bottom seat butts against keeps the water from getting in the car. 

The metal skin on the Golf club door looks to be only about 3/8" wide where it bends over the edge of the frame wood and attaches with finishing nails. It does not cover the entire wood of the door frame like on your golf club door.

If I can get the golf door open, and expose anymore wood construction without damaging the original interior I'll take some more comparison pictures. 

[edinmass]

Just what the doctor ordered......nothing better than comparison photos............Studebaker used Turnsdet  hardware for door latches, hinges, alignment strikers, ect. I think one can conclude the car started off as a 1928 touring car. How, when, and who for it to where it is now is still not certain, and more photos of the woodwork along the sills should help solve more of the mystery.

[Touts]

Apologies, Just me again.

 

I was looking at some past AACA related threads .

 

There was a Studebaker 8 FA non Roadster thread discussed with photos of an original RHD one owner car.

 

Question :

Does this apparently low mileage original RHD NZ car have the same weird “Drink Drive Prevention” accelerator accessory as my car has ? 

 

This car is doing my head in . 😳

 

I promise if someone can make any sense of this car I’ll go away.

frank

 

 

 

[Touts]

 

Additional photo of my accessory?

 

I know we do things differently Down Under but really. 

 

[Ozstatman]

Frank,

 

The positioning of the accelerator pedal might have a lot to do with the space available to have that pedal on the RHS of the brake pedal for a RHD vehicle. For LHD cars, generally, there wouldn't be a space issue for the accelerator pedal to be on the RHS of the brake pedal.

 

And, if I remember correctly, the accelerator pedal on my RHD 1928 Model A Ford was positioned between the clutch and brake pedals. That was over 50 years ago, it took a little bit of getting used to but you soon settled into the setup. If you know any Aussie Model A guys should be easy to confirm.

 

EDIT - IIRC, the positioning of the pedal in the Model A was much further towards the driver than the one in your Roadster which is well behind the pedals. Attached is a photo of a RHD 22/23 Packard which has a similar accelerator pedal setup between the brake and clutch pedals.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[29StudiePrez]

6 hours ago, Touts said:

Apologies, Just me again.

 

I was looking at some past AACA related threads .

 

There was a Studebaker 8 FA non Roadster thread discussed with photos of an original RHD one owner car.

 

Question :

Does this apparently low mileage original RHD NZ car have the same weird “Drink Drive Prevention” accelerator accessory as my car has ? 

 

This car is doing my head in . 😳

 

I promise if someone can make any sense of this car I’ll go away.

frank

 

 

 

Frank,

Yeah looks like the factories really didnt car what mess they made of trying to convert cars over to RHD. I would think trying to keep from accidentally hitting the accelerator pedal when using the brake or clutch would be a pain in the Arse ....smh.

On another note, that pic you posted of the interior of the FA studebaker, based on the dash that was the earlier style FA before they went to the style you have with the winged motif. That car would have had the rounded radiator shell with the Atalanta Goddess hood ornament. Same as the pics my brother posted earlier in this thread of his 1928 FA President Sedan

[mike6024]

 

[John_Mereness]

Remember - you really do not need the accelerator pedal via car having a hand throttle on the steering column. 

[John_Mereness]

5 hours ago, Ozstatman said:

 

 

I suspect this car to have a problem developed over time or via restoration - the pedals are probably flipped and the stops should be on the inside to keep your feet away from steering colum and accelerator pedal. 

[29StudiePrez]

After taking everything so far into consideration it is my belief that Frank's car started out being what today would be a very scarce and rare car. Facts we do know;

1. His wheelbase is 131"

2. The 131" wheelbase was only offered in the late 1928 President model.

3. He has engine #FB 10336

4. The FB was only installed in the late 1928 President.

5. He has an open car cowl and windshield.

6. He has factory wire wheels and hubs designed only for wire wheels.

 

I believe a measurement comparison with a Roadster and a Tourer will show he has Touring Doors. If Frank can locate Peter Limon from Australia and his 1928 President Tourer (Model FA-T1) he would be able to make this comparison. Peter Limon and a Museum in the Netherlands have the only known examples of a "FA-T1" that I ever known of.

 

The "FA" means 1928 President and the "T1" meant it was a Tourer with wood spoke wheels and a rear mounted spare.

The newer style change by Studebaker from the rounded Radiator shell and the Atalanta Goddess was mid-year. 

 

Also the Touring cars had a hole on the top sill of the door that a post for the removable side windows sat down in, which the Roadster door did not have.. So another way Frank can know if his front doors and cowl section is from a Tourer is when he strips his paint and see if its solid metal under there or if there is a hole that has been filled in.

 

Now here comes the interesting part. In 1928 Studebaker was already making the Regular Tourer (FA-T1 which was on 131" wb) with wood wheels and rear mounted spare and a Regular Cabriolet. At the end of the 1928 Model run they decided to Add to the line up a "State" Cabriolet and a "State" Tourer. The State Tourer would have Dual Sidemounts and Wire Wheels. This would have the "FA-T2"  designation. In one of the Studebaker publications its says "Coming so late in the season, the State Tourer may have been put out only in catalog form, as it appears doubtful that the car ever got into production"  The reason they say "it appears doubtful" is there are no known examples that have survived. And we know of only two "FA-T1's that have survived as mentioned above.

So my conclusion is this, Frank has a 131" wheelbase FA President that has a 1928 FA engine with factory dual sidemounts and wire wheels. I believe that this is whats left of the only known 1928 President "FA-T2" Tourer that in it's life may have been in some type of accident or some other mishap which destroyed the back tub part of this car and someone put the back half of a Roadster body on it to make the best of what was left. This is what my conclusion is. Only question now, is do you leave it as a Roadster? Or put it back to being a Tourer, and possibly the only one left?

Based on all this info and facts, if someone has a better or different theory I'm all ears. 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by 29StudiePrez (see edit history)

[29StudiePrez]

5 hours ago, Ozstatman said:

Frank,

 

The positioning of the accelerator pedal might have a lot to do with the space available to have that pedal on the RHS of the brake pedal for a RHD vehicle. For LHD cars, generally, there wouldn't be a space issue for the accelerator pedal to be on the RHS of the brake pedal.

 

And, if I remember correctly, the accelerator pedal on my RHD 1928 Model A Ford was positioned between the clutch and brake pedals. That was over 50 years ago, it took a little bit of getting used to but you soon settled into the setup. If you know any Aussie Model A guys should be easy to confirm.

 

EDIT - IIRC, the positioning of the pedal in the Model A was much further towards the driver than the one in your Roadster which is well behind the pedals. Attached is a photo of a RHD 22/23 Packard which has a similar accelerator pedal setup between the brake and clutch pedals.

 

Looks like this was the factory set up on a President motor that Frank needs

[Grimy]

7 hours ago, Touts said:

Additional photo of my accessory?

 

I know we do things differently Down Under but really. 

 

 

The accelerator pedal between the brake and clutch pedals was standard equipment for RHD Pierce-Arrows through 1920 after a "foot-feed" was added to the hand throttle.  It's disconcerting only for the first five minutes if I haven't driven my 1918 Pierce in awhile.  That said, Touts' particular installation seems a bit clunky to me, but as per Ozstatman, '"clunky" was probably the only practicable way of doing it in a car designed for LHD, especially as an retrofit in the field (vs. factory set-up).

Edited March 26, 2020 by Grimy
correct typos (see edit history)

[29StudiePrez]

7 hours ago, Touts said:

 

Additional photo of my accessory?

 

I know we do things differently Down Under but really. 

 

 

[Ozstatman]

1 hour ago, 29StudiePrez said:

 

Do these photos show starter motor actuation linkage?

[Touts]

Thanks Ozstatman, that is a great reference photo.

 

By the way I looked up the NSW Studebaker Club as you previously mentioned and it looks like they are in locked down until June .

Its  Shane they don’t have an active  open local Forum like the AAOC.

I suspect they have there reasons.

frank

[Ozstatman]

Frank,

 

Call me Mal. But, like the old joke, don't call me late for dinner!🍽️

 

How about contacting the NSW Stude Club by email? 

 

List of their email contacts

[Robert G. Smits]

I know very little about Studebaker's other  than owning probably the last surviving 12 Garford.  This is one of the best threads in the past several years in my opinion.  The knowledge and expertise of forum members is remarkable. I check several times a day for new postings.  I hope Touts will continue this thread throughout the restoration . It reminds me of when I found my 38 V-16 Cadillac Convertible with automatic transmission which had been sitting outside in Maine for 8 years with the top down, no hood and the heads laying on the ground.  It is nice to see that people in the hobby are still ready and able to step up the the plate.   Also a special thank you to Richard Quinn for helping me with history of the Garford company many years ago   

[Buffalowed Bill]

Frank,

 

Don't feel guilty about your continuing questions. We all love a story, that's how we learn, and how we get our kicks. Remember that just because you hold the title, doesn't mean that you have a proprietary right to nearly 100 years of this car's history. We all want to know the history as much as you do. As several of us have said, someone out there knows this car. There are a lot of us old timers  who don't even have computer access. It may take some time for the word to get out, to someone knowledgeable, who can give us some definitive answers. This thread has already turned up documentary evidence takes us back twenty five years now we just need that next spark to get that next step. 

[Touts]

Thank you all .

StudiePres has posted his thoughts on the 1928/9 Studebaker President 8 Roadster possible Tourer and I salute him for his stance.

 

I remembered that I may have another Two parts of the puzzle that may assist in identifying this car. 

 

Keeping in in mind the Roadster/ Tourer theory, my A&B Question are this:

 

Q/A : If The Roadster was converted from a Tourer could someone explain the Soft Top Rails .

 

They look original to me and the Knobs that go into the Windscreen Holes fit perfect.

 

Q/ B: Would this unconfirmed original 131” Soft Top Rail fit a E125” Roadster or a E125” fit a E131” ? .... if that makes any sense?

 

Please see uploaded photos .

 

Also I found what appears to be the original Luggage Box .🧳 

 

It has period unrestored Leather Straps, Interesting Locks, leather Handles and a Makers Identification Sicker in almost unreadable condition.

 

Perhaps it may give us a clue as to the origin of this vehicle.

 

I’ll attach additional photos later re Luggage makers sticker as I’ve used my upload limit.

frank

 

 

[Touts]

Continued from last post.For consideration please.

 

Additional Luggage 🧳 photos with makers almost unreadable sticker.

 

Can anyone identify weather it’s USA 🇺🇸  AUS 🇦🇺 Argentina 🇦🇷 or anywhere else ? 

 

[29StudiePrez]

Frank,

The trunk you have is called a steamer trunk. They came in different sizes but nonetheless its a steamer trunk which you would have used for traveling about the old steamer ships of the day back then. Its not an automobile trunk. The trunk on the below listed Ebay listing (not mine) is very similar to the one on my 1929 President Tourer except mine has a blue lining and has three fitted suit cases which lay down stacked on top of each other not standing up. I've seen some that had two short suit cases and one square hat box. This one would not work for your car because the back side is curved to fit the shape of the rear body of a Packard sedan. But its a good example of a period correct oil cloth covered trunk. Finding ones with the luggage is very hard, i.e. why this one is so expensive. Ones that didnt have fitted suitcases usually just had a top that opened. But they are black cloth covered have leather corners and chrome hinges and latches. And yours would have had straight sides with a round lid. But like I said, this is an example of the trunk for cars of that era. When you do look at getting a trunk make sure the measurements of the trunk match the measurements of your rack.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202855249080

 

[Touts]

5 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Frank,

 

Don't feel guilty about your continuing questions. We all love a story, that's how we learn, and how we get our kicks. Remember that just because you hold the title, doesn't mean that you have a proprietary right to nearly 100 years of this car's history. We all want to know the history as much as you do. As several of us have said, someone out there knows this car. There are a lot of us old timers  who don't even have computer access. It may take some time for the word to get out, to someone knowledgeable, who can give us some definitive answers. This thread has already turned up documentary evidence takes us back twenty five years now we just need that next spark to get that next step. 

 

I appreciate your kind words Buffalowed Bill .

 

As this is my first post on any Forum I have been taken back by the volume and quality of the information received.

 

I’ve learned so much and the photos of All the cars are amazing.

 

If the received information is correct then that’s great news for the passionate Studebaker community as a group.

 

I have no financial interest, I simply just like the car.

For me it’s all about the People, History, Preservation and the Story. 

 

You are are correct with your comments in relation to the fact that someone must know at least some of the history of this vehicle,  and I’m waiting in anticipation for that information or someone to come forward.

I know I’m not alone, however 

I’ve been told that I go on a bit 😏

Frank

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[29StudiePrez]

In regard to your top bows as seen in your picture. These are touring bows not Roadster bows. Either one are extremely hard to find it you dont have them. You are also missing a threaded bolt that sticks out from the body that a large chrome button screws onto that is for the top bow to attach to. See attaches pic. The Roadster bows would not have that extra long section between the front bow which rests on top of the front windshield to the second bow which comes up from the button. Take a 2x4 the width of the bottom of the center top bow and put two bolt in the ends so you can attach the end of the center bow to it so it will hold it in place. Refer to the pics I'm posting to get an idea of how they sit and lay that 2x4 with the ends of the bow that are now bolted to it and lay it across the body just behind the door where that button should be. As you unfold those bows toward the front windshield that folding part in the middle of that long section is going to snap up in place and make that whole length straight. Now, if the center bow is along the width of the body where the burron should be, if its Roadster bows the front will rest on top of the windshield. If on your car the front of the folding top is way past it then they are too long and go to the tourer body. So remember the 1st bow angles back, the second bow angles foward and the end bow rests on the top of the windshield. And you having the bottom ends of the second bow attached to the ends of a 2x4 laying across the body behind the door opening at the button location will help hold it in place for this experiment, you may want to take a bungy cord or string to put on the 1st bow that is angling towards the back bumper to hold it in place to keep it from moving forward. Its the top material sewn onto this back bow and that snaps along the back wood that keeps the rear bow from moving any further than what its supposed to. Once you have the bows unfolded and in place, take a side shot of where it all lands so we can see if they fold out correctly for a Roadster or last the windshield for a tourer. You may need a second hand to help.

[Yellowriv]

Fascinating thread.

 

I know nothing about these Studebakers, however I notice compering the Indy Pace Car roadster photo with this car that the front fenders on this car appear to have a different shape and shallower crown than the cars in the other photos. They don't follow the tyres the same or come down as low at the front. 

 

Anyone agree?

[edinmass]

I agree it started as a touring car. And it was a factory RHD. As to why and how it got cut down.........we will probably never know. In many countries that didn’t have their own auto industry many older used cars would be cut into useful work vehicles as trucks were usually expensive, and hard to source. Fire Departments were well known to take large old touring cars and make hose wagons and chemical tankers among many other modifications for “firefighting use”. Also, large estates would cut down older vehicles and use them as local pick up trucks. My guess is since the body sills and rear pan are all intact on this car, as well as most of the front doors and some other touring car hardware, that somehow the rear body was either severely damaged from above, or some kid decided to cut it down into a race car/speedster type dream and then someone saved it at the last minute. There’s too much factory wood, floor panels and sills for a total cut down into a truck by a professional work shop. And the great lines of the repurposed touring car definitely show skill. Vary interesting to ponder, and a fun puzzle we will probably never know the true answer unless someone from fifty years ago remembers the car and the story. Before any attempt at restoration or cosmetic improvements, it would be wise to sit back and figure out where you want to go with the car.........I would source all parts necessary for finishing it and assemble and run it to work out all the issues that will pop up before you do any finish work. Ed

[8E45E]

There are a few other Studebakers out there being debated as being 'factory', including this 1957 Golden Hawk 400.

 

https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/91881-also-a-new-1957-golden-hawk-owner-but-a-400-hope-so

 

Craig

[29StudiePrez]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

There are a few other Studebakers out there being debated as being 'factory', including this 1957 Golden Hawk 400.

 

https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/91881-also-a-new-1957-golden-hawk-owner-but-a-400-hope-so

 

Craig

Well I'll have to pass on that discussion since the most knowledge I have on Studebaker's without running boards was just driving a 1957 Silver Hawk in High School.... thats best I can tribute ...lol

Edited March 27, 2020 by 29StudiePrez (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

For a visual look, here are the exposed top irons for my '31 Chrysler CD8 Roadster. While the shapes of the various folding parts are no doubt diferent, the principles are the same, when erected, they only secure at a chrome knob at rear door post and 2 clips at windshield. Fabric top is clipped to rear deck to anchor back of top. While my top irons started life as originals, a PO in the 50's chopped them at several strategic points and re-welded them in order to lower top by about 1.5" overall, makes for a nicer look, but not original. He also cut windshield by about 1". I plan to leave all this 70 year old historical effort alone. Wood bows for mine were missing (replaced with bent steel pipe), I have made some from odds and ends, may use "as is" or eventaully get some steam bent. That task is well down the road. I also include a pic of an original set of Chrysler bows.

 

In trying to rebuild my car, which had been massively altered over 80 years, I decided to aim at keeping it 100% 1931 CD8 Chrysler, but not spending a $1M getting everything factory. For example, the 1st and 2nd series CD8's had side vents at cowl while the 3rd series did not. Since those on mine were shot, and restoring to original was $2000+ in metal fabrication or so, I'm opting to delete them.  Car has vent on top of cowl, which I did have rebuilt. 

[John_Mereness]

May I make a suggestion  ?  I have seen a lot of "period" photos of cars here in the United States and while I know export photos are rare, I would be looking for photos of Studebaker roadsters in other Countries (my point being that often export cars are different).

 

Upon finding out such though whether good or bad results - you have a nice car and I would enjoy it in its current configuration.

 

As to the RHD in the United States, it tends to be really hard on a car's value at time of sale (exception being some real oddities and English cars of popularity) - neat yes, but ... 

 

[8E45E]

7 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

May I make a suggestion  ?  I have seen a lot of "period" photos of cars here in the United States and while I know export photos are rare, I would be looking for photos of Studebaker roadsters in other Countries (my point being that often export cars are different).

I posted photos of a RHD 1939 Commander here-------->    https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/47733-39-40s-lets-see-em/page3

 

Craig