Painting a Car

[60FlatTop]

20 hours ago, dalef62 said:

I don't know what all the fuss is about wanting to keep the original paint when it is worn out.

 

Reminds me of the time I spent looking for that old flannel shirt of mine. Have you been talking to me Wife?

Bernie

[Mark Shaw]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:38 PM, Michael C Wauhop said:

Can anyone on the forum recommend a good body man who doesn't charge an arm and a leg? I am not looking to win 1st place at Hershey but I do want the car to look good. In the Philadelphia Pa area. I should say i want to spend under 10K.

 

I suppose it's typical of this forum to morph the original poster's request (quoted above) into answers for something very different. 

I thought Michael was pretty clear in what he asked for.

[auburnseeker]

57 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

 

I suppose it's typical of this forum to morph the original poster's request (quoted above) into answers for something very different. 

I thought Michael was pretty clear in what he asked for.

I think all we were trying to point out is it rarely ends with just a paint job as I pointed out above. You also have to watch out for the wrong shop which turns into paint jail.  What the OP has is a turnkey car he can enjoy.  Once the shop starts working on it, it's no longer that. 

I wish the OP the best of luck in whatever he decides.  Looks like a fun car.  I have a 1956 Olds in similar shape.  It probably should be repainted.  Has been repainted once before.  I polished it out and it shines.  Has a couple rust bubbles on the edge of the hood and bottom of one rocker.  I have replaced almost all the chrome with rechromed or nice original / NOS pieces.  It was a CA car with beautiful undercarriage and has been well stored over the years , used atleast  a couple times a year to keep it going.  I did the brakes all over in silicone 20 years ago so they are good.  

  What do I do with it.  Probably keep it just like it is and keep buying nice NOS pieces or rechromed parts for the few I haven't replaced, as I'm sure a repaint would end up being a body off ground up restoration. 

Besides it's real close to the way it looked in High school right down to the worn paint spots I rubbed on it in High school. 

[Buick35]

I have a 35 Buick that was restored the first time in the mid 70 s and repainted a couple of times since that. I had small rust bubbles in various areas and wanted to get it taken care of. A local restoration shop said they'd do it for $30,000 ! But I found a man who's doing it in his garage for $2500. He's also taking it down to bare metal. Its been about a year now and he's working at his own pace mainly just on weekends but hey for the price, I can wait. I've seen some of his work and he is a perfectionist,so maybe this year. So far the fenders, grille shell,trunk lid and hood are off and body are down to bare metal and I've had some parts rechromed. Time is on my side. Greg.

[Xander Wildeisen]

I hope that works out for you Buick35, I have seen that kind of arrangement go south. Time is on my side? Rolling stones right?

[mike6024]

I'm not sure that "taking it down to bare metal" is always necessary or even advisable. That is to say to get the best result on a limited budget it may be better to not do that. The Packard subject of this thread may be such a case since it doesn't seem to have rust. Some of the paint is worn through to the original primer. I would consider taking it all down to the original primer without putting any coarse grit scratch marks in it, then a primer-sealer coat and new top single stage paint.

 

 

[auburnseeker]

You may get away with it on original paint if it all looks stable.  Most cars have been repainted at least once and often,  the failing top coat is the reason for the full strip.  Most shops want to be sure that they start with a clean surface so they can get the best result and be able to guarantee their work.  I understand where they are coming from.  I can also understand a lot of cars are just not worth the extra cost to do this. 

 

[alsancle]

22 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

 

I suppose it's typical of this forum to morph the original poster's request (quoted above) into answers for something very different. 

I thought Michael was pretty clear in what he asked for.

 

Mark,  this is true,  but wouldn't you say this thread is a wealth of great advice by a bunch of guys that have been there and done that? 

 

And just so I'm 100% clear,  if that car actually looks as good as it does in the one picture,  painting it would be a crime and a complete waste of money.

[AJFord54]

So far I've seen one photo of his car.  I certainly don't understand how anyone could make a determination as to whether he should paint or not paint the car.  The sum of the ideas presented are wonderful, but to say it will ruin the car to paint it is absurd.  How many of us have had our cars painted?  Chances are they too were "original".  We made the choice because we wanted to, just as Michael does.  A good painter will blend that paint so nicely that it will look original.  Yes, the point about the chrome perhaps being a little weak might make the new paint stand out, but again, we don't know the status of that chrome.  Additionally, he has $10,000 to spend and his estimate will allow him to get some re-plating done over the years, piece by piece.

 

Some great warnings were presented by posters, including making sure the car doesn't get brought into the shop and slowly the price of painting gets driven up by finding faults, rust, etc.  A good contract, estimate, clear understanding of what trim will be removed, door jamb painting, etc. will help to clear that up.  Luckily, he knows personally the painter and that's a good thing.

 

Certainly he has a choice based upon AACA judging as to keep the car original and enter it into HPOF, or he can "restore" it and seek a First Junior at some point.  I can tell you that most members of the AACA opt to bring the car up to "as from the factory".  There's no "right or wrong".  This is possibly the first step in that total restoration process.  He'll probably do more things to it down the road and perhaps seek that First Junior or more.  

 

It's his car, not ours.  He asked how much he should spend.  He starts the car up and drives it - not us.  Michael - "It's your thing... do what you wanna do".

[auburnseeker]

If you are planning on doing a restoration paint shouldn't be the first thing.   You will mess that nice paint up before you get done with everything else up down the road.  I still remember tearing the half the front off a nicely restored 35 Ford woody,  to take the engine out and have it rebuilt as it was tired and never addressed when it was "restored".  I can't tell you the number of wooden boats done this way as well.  Barely run,  but they look beautiful in the water or on a trailer.  Or a tow rope,  behind the ugly aluminum boat,  hauling them back to the dock. 

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, AJFord54 said:

So far I've seen one photo of his car.  I certainly don't understand how anyone could make a determination as to whether he should paint or not paint the car.

 

I'm probably over reacting because I've seen too many nice looking cars ruined with crappy paint jobs.

Edited March 4, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

sum of the ideas presented are wonderful, but to say it will ruin the car to paint it is absurd.

 

I don't think that anyone here has indicated that painting the car would "ruin" it. It's more a case of whether paint is going to make it any better. Changing the car from the way it has survived, for more then sixty five years, will probably not make it better ( more valuable) monetarily or historically. This forum provides a wonderful cross section of the present and historical attitudes, of real car people. We would be remiss if we failed to pass on what we've learned. 

[Guest alleyyooper]

I spend all last summer looking for a person to paint out car. It had cracked pitted orginal GM paint and was so thin on the roof a bit of surface rust was starting to show.

 

Finally after many quotes and seeing paints jobs by the person we ended up selecting our car is 1.5 hours from home in a small town in Michigans thumb.

 

Along the way I was warned by different people who I approched about there painter. Don't get a paintewr who is going to do your car between other jobs or a month or so could end up taking years.

Our buick.

 

 

Our painter said we would get all door jams, under sides of hood and trunk painted. pin strip (orginal a tape) painted on. All chrome striped off and all orginal paint removed. the little door saver is to be replaced because some chrome on it is peeling. Right front fender removed for access to power antena I need to rebuild then reinstalled. All door rubbers replaced, I bought those Ahead of time along with rear bumper close outs.

 

We visited the car 3 weeks ago.

 

 

 

Called last monday and 2 coat of base color was applied and being block sanded. said should be ready in two more weeks.

 

Cost is $10,000. we had a quote of 4,500 but no refferences from him. Had a high of 17,000 and his car was the reference.

 

Good luck and ask to see refferences. We were shown 5  cars he had painted one  30 years a go.

 

 

 

         Al

[60FlatTop]

Young painters tend to be inexperienced at many phases of the job from scheduling, billing, and details.

Older painters are experienced but have been breathing the paint fumes for so long they tend to screw up other stuff.

 

The answer to the original question :

On 3/3/2018 at 11:29 AM, Mark Shaw said:

Can anyone on the forum recommend a good body man who doesn't charge an arm and a leg?

 

Nope.

 

Bernie

[Mark Shaw]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:38 PM, Michael C Wauhop said:

Can anyone on the forum recommend a good body man who doesn't charge an arm and a leg? I am not looking to win 1st place at Hershey but I do want the car to look good. In the Philadelphia Pa area. I should say i want to spend under 10K.

60FlatTop,

      I believe you misquoted me when I was actually quoting Michael C Wauhop. 

[Janousek]

On 2/28/2018 at 6:37 PM, Bhigdog said:

Probably $10,000 of a $20,000 job is spent chasing that last 10% of perfection.

 

That extra 10k is spent on sound fundamentals and using the best materials.   Are they solvent wiping the car between each step or just blowing off with an air gun?   Are they maintaning proper temperature in the shop all winter or using urethane accelleratos to get the products to cure?    Are they taking it to bare metal covered with epoxy and solvent rags wiping the car numerous times until the rag is crystal clear.  They might do a DA and buff the orange peel but their surely isn't enough money for a proper cut and buff to eliminate urethane wave.     I'm seeing alot of information from armchair quarterbacks that don't understand the details that go into a quality job.  This Packard has a lot of trim and detail on it.  So a shop says they will paint it for 6 grand when the materials bill will be half of that.   Lowered expectations is probably the only way he is going to be happy at the end of the job. 

 

  I paid $1800 for two gallons of paint/activator without clear a few weeks ago.  That is paint only.  Those of us doing high end paint jobs are earning every dollar.  Collision paint jobs and old car jobs are two completely different industries.       

[Bhigdog]

27 minutes ago, Janousek said:

 

That extra 10k is spent on sound fundamentals and using the best materials.   Are they solvent wiping the car between each step or just blowing off with an air gun?   Are they maintaning proper temperature in the shop all winter or using urethane accelleratos to get the products to cure?    Are they taking it to bare metal covered with epoxy and solvent rags wiping the car numerous times until the rag is crystal clear.  They might do a DA and buff the orange peel but their surely isn't enough money for a proper cut and buff to eliminate urethane wave.     I'm seeing alot of information from armchair quarterbacks that don't understand the details that go into a quality job.  This Packard has a lot of trim and detail on it.  So a shop says they will paint it for 6 grand when the materials bill will be half of that.   Lowered expectations is probably the only way he is going to be happy at the end of the job. 

 

  I paid $1800 for two gallons of paint/activator without clear a few weeks ago.  That is paint only.  Those of us doing high end paint jobs are earning every dollar.  Collision paint jobs and old car jobs are two completely different industries.       

 

You miss the point. I'm didn't say the extra 10K is not earned in time and materials. I said the extra 10K spent chasing every last detail might not be the best deal for a lot of people and likely is not cost effective for the car under discussion.  For many folks the extra 10K might be financially onerous and add very little to his enjoyment of or value to his car. 

So yes, he should have lowered expectations, but that doesn't preclude him from getting an entirely acceptable job with a happy ending............Bob

[Janousek]

I get what your saying Bob.  As a guy that does this for a living I just disagree.  For me their isn't enough meat on the bone to properly go through the steps required for the best foundation.  The foundation is the paint job.  I laugh when I see these dumb tv shows where they feather back 4 layers of 50 year old paint and go right back over it.  I feel sorry for the guys that buy stuff like that.  

 

Al's regal would be a much easier car to do than this Packard.  The shop doing the job has a chance to make some money at the 10k if they hustle the Buick through.  Once again it will probably be shiny and nice but the money is not their to cut the urethane wave out.  Block sanding by hand through 5 different grits of paper before switching to a da and going through 2 more grits of paper.  With those later da grits costing 10 bucks or more a piece.   10-15 hours can be spent on a hood doing this procedure.  All hand work,  requires extra coats of clear, and  every high end showcar is done in a similar fashion with some guys using different grits to achieve similar end results.  

 

Expectations surely need to be discussed with these shops.  You can't have it all when it comes to paint.  Either you pay top dollar or you settle.  The test to do on this Packard is look at the side of the car and ask yourself if you just want it to shine and look nice.  But.. if you want to stand at the front of the car and look down the side and see a flawless/flat surface then it's going to cost you dearly.  Besides the quality foundation that flawless/flat surface is expensive.  If you don't know what I mean by looking down the side of the car then your good to go with a regular paint job.  

 

I'm glad some shops can accomodate these types of cars.  I used to when I was learning and just getting started.  But.. once you build a reputation for quality,  shops are no longer interested in painting these types of cars.  Our reputation goes on them.  The owners always tell you it won't be shown.  Those are the first to bring it to a show.  The owner of the car will gladly tell the public who painted it but never tells them they had the shop do it on the cheap.  There goes your reputation.  

[Restorer32]

Janousek, I could not have expressed it better. Your last paragraph summed it up precisely. Like you we decided years ago to do one quality of paint work and that is the absolute best we can do and it has worked out well for us. I almost had to grin reading your last few sentences. We've both been there and done that!  We actually thought about forming a  separate company under a different name just to do "less than perfect" paint jobs but never actually did it.

[Bhigdog]

Not sure what you disagree with.

The guy that's getting his Bugatti Royale repainted likely can and certainly should pay for the "best" flawless paint job. The guy with his 1971 BelchFire 8 maybe not so much.

Insisting that anything less than perfection on a car that never had it in the first place is somehow wrong or inferior smacks of elitism.   Actually that "flawless flat surface" you strive to achieve is incorrect over restoration on the vast majority cars ever made.

So.........While I also appreciate the skill and effort that goes into a "flawless" paint job I also realize that most production cars never wore one and most old car owners of average means can't afford one.

So the next time you stand at the front of the average proud owners car and get the reflections just right, try not to sneer. It likely is more "correct" than the "flawless" job sitting next to it............................Bob

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

And this is why the finish on the Packard is wanted/desired by people. A bad paint job is just that. To go through all of the steps, and do it right, will led to doing other things on the car. A person can buy a car that needs everything, or is in the middle of the road condition wise, or needs nothing and is a fresh build/restoration. The middle of the road car is the one that you want to really pay attention to. Great to buy into, lower cost, should be usable and presentable. But once you start to do things to it. It can turn into the car that needs everything very fast. And the "I JUST WANT TO PAINT IT" can be the kiss of death to someones interest in owning/enjoying classic and collector cars.  When they do not know what costs lurk around the corner when you just paint a car.   

[Restorer32]

Nowhere have I ever "insisted that anything less than perfection on a car that never had it in the first place is somehow wrong". It isn't. 

[mike6024]

Would the factory finish ( on this subject Packard ) when new meet this standard of a perfect, flat, flawless surface when looking down the side of the car?

 

A new Mercedes coming off the line these days will not get 10 to 15 hours of wet sanding done on it's hood either.

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

17 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Nowhere have I ever "insisted that anything less than perfection on a car that never had it in the first place is somehow wrong". It isn't. 

Never said you did, we are all just throwing out comments that are all right. Trying to give the Packard owner a lot to think about, and he will never know how it turns out until he makes the choice to paint it.  

[60FlatTop]

15 hours ago, Janousek said:

Collision paint jobs and old car jobs are two completely different industries.       

 

That can't be written or stated too many times. I call the collision shop "production jobs". And the very common situation is taking a collector car to a production shop with instructions to "work it in between your other jobs to save me money".

 

Before an owner does that, it would be better to buy lottery tickets until you win enough to pay for the expense custom paint job. The odds of getting the paint job you expect are higher that way.

Bernie

[Xander Wildeisen]

19 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Would the factory finish ( on this subject Packard ) when new meet this standard of a perfect, flat, flawless surface when looking down the side of the car?

 

A new Mercedes coming off the line these days will not get 10 to 15 hours of wet sanding done on it's hood either.

 

And I do not know of a paint shop dipping cars. Not really fair to compare brand new surfaces to a road driven old car. Modern painting and prep has given new cars a fit and finish that an old Packard would have never seen. I understand what you are saying. Just tough to compare old cars to new ones being built.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I think the bottom line is that in paint jobs, as with almost everything else related to old cars, you get what you pay for. This is why shops and customers need to talk about expectations up front, not when it's done and there's a bill due. If someone expects a $5000 paint job to look like a $20,000 paint job, they're going to be badly disappointed. If the shop doesn't tell them that a $5000 job won't be perfect and that there will be things that aren't quite right, then they haven't done their job properly and should expect complaints. If a customer likewise makes the mistake of assuming that paint is paint and anybody can spray it and that shiny is the same as well-done, then he is also to blame.

 

Managing expectations is a big part of my job selling the cars, it should also be part of the job while restoring them.

 

This is why many people (including myself) prefer weathered but presentable original (or older) paint. Nobody's going to fault you for keeping it that way and nobody will think you cut corners by simply leaving it a little scruffy. But a fresh low-quality paint job, no matter how shiny, will advertise loud and clear that your expectations were bigger than your wallet.

[39BuickEight]

agreed 100% Matt.  Also, using the term "painting a car" means something different to everyone.  Are you simply painting it, or any or all of the other labor intensive work to get the car ready for paint?  Too many variables.

[Janousek]

Bob,  I don't mean to sound elitist.  Maybe I am????   I learned a long time ago the cheaper the job/ lower expectations that market more often than not had problems paying me.  It caused me to quickly drift away from that market wondering if they are going to pay.  Doing quality jobs in a timely manner is hard enough and throw in a couple dead beats into the mix and you'll go broke in a hurry.  

 

I haven't explained why the expensive cut and buff of modern urethanes is needed.   It's necessary to look good because the paint dries in waves that have to be cut flat with aggresive paper/blocks.   Laquer and enamels never layered into waves like the urethanes do.  So were comparing the old paints like laquer that could be 1500 sanded and buffed with a wool pad and look great without this "wave".  Factories had to buff their laquer finishes back then.   So back in the day a laquer job would have looked flatter than a spray/1500/buff urethane job will look today.  Factories get away with it today because the finishes are electrostatically applied to a mininal film thickness and they don't build up the wave like we get trying to refinish modern cars.  The more coats of urethane, the more wave present.  Collision shops usually do a 2 coat application with the goal of no polishing and the wave isn't noticable.   Restorers are putting 4-5-6 coats of clear and each coat amplifies this wave and we have to cut it flat for a good finish.   We almost have to over restore the paint today as a shop.  We can't make it look like laquer without a cut and buff.  If I remove the orange peel and buff it still looks like crap and nowhere near as flat as laquer.  

 

Just trying to explain some of the why we do certain things.  

[trimacar]

2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

That can't be written or stated too many times. I call the collision shop "production jobs". And the very common situation is taking a collector car to a production shop with instructions to "work it in between your other jobs to save me money".

 

I agree, the production jobs WANT an orange peel, as that's the way most cars come from the factory.

 

I was very lucky on one of my cars, I ended up being good friends with the owner of a shop (since closed and he moved).  He did some small jobs for me, and then one day he asked me if I had any big jobs.  His reasoning was that he did nothing but insurance work, and the way he was scheduled, always had a few guys hanging around the shop on Friday afternoon with little to do.

 

I delivered one of my best cars to him, and they put in a back room, and worked on it on Fridays.  A few months later, I had a beautiful, non-orange peel paint job, using single stage Glasurit paint, for under $3000.  And yes, that included the cost of all paint and materials.  For reference, that was 17 years ago, and though I realize the price of paint has skyrocketed since, the paint was still expensive then.

 

It can be done, you just have to be good friends with the owner, and as I did, get to know all the paint and body men, and if they like you they'll do a good job.  It is an unusual thing to have a happy ending to this, of course....

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, Janousek said:

Bob,  I don't mean to sound elitist.  Maybe I am????   I learned a long time ago the cheaper the job/ lower expectations that market more often than not had problems paying me.  It caused me to quickly drift away from that market wondering if they are going to pay.  Doing quality jobs in a timely manner is hard enough and throw in a couple dead beats into the mix and you'll go broke in a hurry.  

Someone once told me, that they never lost any money on a job that they did not do. The writing is on the wall when you have people who do not understand, or do not want to listen. I have seen people go down a road that I told them what they will find. And because they are good at what they do, they know all about what I do. I try very hard to tell customers what is the best use of their money. And some of them, I think set out to prove they were right. And it bit them in the end. We all look to different people for help, when  having stuff done. Finding quality people to work with is key. No matter what price range you are wanting to be in.

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, Janousek said:

Factories had to buff their laquer finishes back then

 

Only when flaws were found on final inspection of the completed car. Then it went to the re-work department.

 

I am speaking GM here, the longest user of lacquer paint. The lacquer paint ( and the enamels also) used at the factor is a re-flow paint. The bodies/parts are sprayed, and then put in an oven to bake/re-flow the paint to a shinny surface. No buffing needed for lacquer paint formulated this way.

 

This is also why I laugh when people speak of buying "factory paint" for their car. It might be from the same manufacturer, but the paint one buys at the auto paint supplier is nothing like what is supplied to the factories for their high temperature re-flow assembly lines. And, therefore,  just because the OEM used XXX paint does not mean the XXX paint of the same color code bought at the store will match! The XXX company had to have their R&D department formulate a mix for the aftermarket. Most body shops, even with a heated booth, cannot bake the re-flow paint at the correct temperature, as the upholstery would char, foam would melt, wiring , you get the idea. 

[Matt Harwood]

I wonder if paint jobs are like selling cars: the lower the price, the higher the expectations and the louder the complaints.

[mike6024]

Did the OP say his Packard will be done single-stage? I don't think he said one way or the other.

[Janousek]

46 minutes ago, trimacar said:

It can be done, you just have to be good friends with the owner, and as I did, get to know all the paint and body men, and if they like you they'll do a good job.  It is an unusual thing to have a happy ending to this, of course....

That sounds like it worked out for you.  Most guys today would have a better chance winning the lottery than finding a  shop with guys sitting around doing nothing.  If they did you probably wouldn't want them working on your car.  

 

Thanks for the clarification on the laquer Frank. I've only seen the factory photos of guys buffing the cars.  I've also sprayed enough laquer to know it's impossible to spray and have it look finished but the baking makes sense to give it a gloss.  Once again minimal coats and flowed with heat.  We as shops can't duplicate this flatness with multiple coats of urethane.  

[60FlatTop]

13 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I wonder if paint jobs are like selling cars: the lower the price, the higher the expectations and the louder the complaints.

 

If I bought two cars at $5,000 each for resale I would put less markup on the nicer one.

 

Somewhere, in my formative years, I remember sitting in the coffee area of the dealer auction a crusty old timer said "Kid, you can sell a divorce or you can sell a marriage. Avoid marriages." Pretty good metaphors. I have never sold a marriage.... and I have let a few dealers know they were selling a divorce when it was in my favor.

"I'm a grown up. Take my offer and you will never see me again." Now, there's a deal closing statement.

Bernie

[Bhigdog]

3 hours ago, Janousek said:

Bob,  I don't mean to sound elitist.  Maybe I am????   I learned a long time ago the cheaper the job/ lower expectations that market more often than not had problems paying me.  It caused me to quickly drift away from that market wondering if they are going to pay.  Doing quality jobs in a timely manner is hard enough and throw in a couple dead beats into the mix and you'll go broke in a hurry. 

 

I think most folks here are saying the same thing only phrasing it differently. Most understand, and I think agree, that with a paint job you typically get what you pay for. Yes, there are outliers like the crappy $25K job and the near perfect $5K job.

I also think most understand and agree not every car needs or wants a "flawless" paint job.

I also think we all understand and agree there are large differences between urethane, acrylic, lacquer and that will affect both the price and appearance of the finished job.

I also think we all hope for the best for the O.P.er and his Packard.

By now his head must be ready to explode.

This has been a most entertaining and informative thread and I've enjoyed flapping my gums here.

Peace Brothers..................Bob

[trimacar]

I definitely was not saying that my one good experience in the back of a body shop is the norm.  These days, as mentioned, you get what you pay for.  The last ballpark quote I had for a paint job was driver quality, $10K, show quality, $20K.  As most of you guys know, a large proportion of the $20K figure is additional body work and preparation.

 

I also know of a guy who restores 50's pickup trucks, he gets beautiful paint jobs in the few thousand dollar range.  Unfortunately, at this point he hasn't shared the name of the painter with me!

[Janousek]

59 minutes ago, trimacar said:

I also know of a guy who restores 50's pickup trucks, he gets beautiful paint jobs in the few thousand dollar range.  Unfortunately, at this point he hasn't shared the name of the painter with me!

 

Hey Trim,  how many corners have to be cut in order to do an inexpensive interior?  Paint is the same way except all the bad stuff is hidden under a sprayed liquid coating instead of seat cover.  Sacked out springs full of rust and rotten old fabric just covered up to speed up the time. 

 

That is what your getting with these inexpensive paint jobs.   Most of the old talent/metal finish guys  that once were in a body shop are gone.  Parts changers and mud slingers is mostly what is left.  Not every case but mostly true since collision shops panel replace nowadays instead of repair.  A large shop might only have a couple guys you'd want touch your old car.  

 

I've enjoyed the differences in opinion on this thread.  Kinda reminds me of when I worked at a UAW shop.  The hourly guys hated the salary guys because the union poison of the "us vs. them" mentality.   I went salary and the hourly called me a traitor.  Funny part is I never heard one Salary guy complain about the union guys or act like they were better.   Kinda the whole shop owner vs. car owner thing.  The shop is out to screw the little guy and the little guy will screw the shop owner every chance he can get.  Fun stuff.  

[Xander Wildeisen]