25 Buick first start issues

[Mikefit]

Well I'm not 100% sure but I think the only torque test is not a test the only test is a locked arm. test that would be amp draw  6volts locked rotor amps = torque all this was and is what the company did when it was made.

[garnetkid]

Carmover,  you are getting good at taking the s/g in and out, take another shot at running it some more for a longer period, might just loosen it up some more.  Be careful and watch the temperature as an engine that is a little tight will heat up faster.  Leon

[Hubert_25-25]

This weekend I received this picture from Roger of a SG rope sling  to make removal and installation easier.   Notice the extra padding on the fender.  

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, carmover said:

Everyone keeps saying the starter is bad and there is no reason for it to be bad.

Everyone says that because that's where's the evidence points.  Be honest with yourself: that's where you'd be looking as well if you hadn't just paid $2500 to have it rebuilt.  You keep saying it can't be bad, but emotion is a poor substitute for reason.  Maybe it isn't bad -- but a stubborn refusal to even consider the possibility is doing you no favors.  If you test it and it's good, you get to eliminate one possibility and say "I told you so."  If you test it and it's bad, you fix your problem.  Either way, you win.

 

[carmover]

33 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

This weekend I received this picture from Roger of a SG rope sling  to make removal and installation easier.   Notice the extra padding on the fender.  

Hugh, That is a good idea.I am pretty stout and I just reach in and get mine.

[JFranklin]

Bad starter gen unit or linkage , bad connections, or bad battery, is all I can think it could be, unless someone is doing some bad VOODO on you.

[carmover]

37 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Everyone says that because that's where's the evidence points.  Be honest with yourself: that's where you'd be looking as well if you hadn't just paid $2500 to have it rebuilt.  You keep saying it can't be bad, but emotion is a poor substitute for reason.  Maybe it isn't bad -- but a stubborn refusal to even consider the possibility is doing you no favors.  If you test it and it's good, you get to eliminate one possibility and say "I told you so."  If you test it and it's bad, you fix your problem.  Either way, you win.

 

You are making good sense and I see your reasoning with this and I plan to take it off tomorrow and take it somewhere that can fully test this starter and put this to rest.If this was the old worn out starter that it was before it was rebuilt it would be easier to  think it might be the starter but the point I have been trying to make is it worked when I took it out and it has no reason to be bad and I wanted to concentrate on things that pulling the engine and rebuilding it has to do with it not working.

[KongaMan]

Just out of curiosity, did you rotate the starter gears and take a good look at the teeth?  If you've got something wedged between two teeth, that might well keep the gears from turning.

[C Carl]

You hang in there , Ronnie. All of us old old car guys who , in pursuit of performance , have bled , sweated,  and been covered in greasy grime , have become frustrated , maybe even shed a tear or two. Don't even THINK of selling your car. You are heading in the right direction at this point by getting local hands on help. Courage , friend !    - Carl 

[carmover]

8 minutes ago, C Carl said:

You hang in there , Ronnie. All of us old old car guys who , in pursuit of performance , have bled , sweated,  and been covered in greasy grime , have become frustrated , maybe even shed a tear or two. Don't even THINK of selling your car. You are heading in the right direction at this point by getting local hands on help. Courage , friend !    - Carl 

Thank you Carl, I need all of the encouragement I can Get.

[carmover]

17 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Just out of curiosity, did you rotate the starter gears and take a good look at the teeth?  If you've got something wedged between two teeth, that might well keep the gears from turning.

I checked the flywheel while I had it out and have rotated it and it is meshing well.

[carmover]

30 minutes ago, JFranklin said:

Bad starter gen unit or linkage , bad connections, or bad battery, is all I can think it could be, unless someone is doing some bad VOODO on you.

Lord, I hope the voodo is not whats happening LOL!

[KongaMan]

11 minutes ago, carmover said:

I checked the flywheel while I had it out and have rotated it and it is meshing well.

But did you look specifically at the two starter gears?  Remember how you said the starter jumped then stopped?  One might think that one possibility is that it moved until the gears meshed, then a weak starter motor couldn't turn it any further -- but another possibility is that the gears meshed but couldn't turn because something's wedged between two teeth.  You had the whole thing apart, no?  It's not inconceivable that something  dropped down into a gear then got wedged in the first time the gears tried to mesh.  It might be worth spinning those gears and taking a careful look between all the teeth.

[maok]

2 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

But did you look specifically at the two starter gears?  Remember how you said the starter jumped then stopped?  One might think that one possibility is that it moved until the gears meshed, then a weak starter motor couldn't turn it any further -- but another possibility is that the gears meshed but couldn't turn because something's wedged between two teeth.  You had the whole thing apart, no?  It's not inconceivable that something  dropped down into a gear then got wedged in the first time the gears tried to mesh.  It might be worth spinning those gears and taking a careful look between all the teeth.

 

If this was the case then the starter would have gotten hot and  there would have been a big voltage drop at the starter and lots of current draw.

 

Are you sure you don't have a very weak battery?

[KongaMan]

4 minutes ago, maok said:

 

If this was the case then the starter would have gotten hot and  there would have been a big voltage drop at the starter and lots of current draw.

How hot it gets would depend how long the starter is engaged, no?  One would hope that it's not engaged long enough to get hot, as that would not be in the best interests of said starter.

 

While it's true that one would expect both a voltage drop and increased current draw from a properly operating starter, we don't know anything about either the expected or actual current draw.  I would agree that the reported voltage drop seems smaller than you'd expect -- which is one reason it might be advisable to to do a thorough evaluation of the starter.  OTOH, the better the battery, the smaller the drop.

[carmover]

36 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

But did you look specifically at the two starter gears?  Remember how you said the starter jumped then stopped?  One might think that one possibility is that it moved until the gears meshed, then a weak starter motor couldn't turn it any further -- but another possibility is that the gears meshed but couldn't turn because something's wedged between two teeth.  You had the whole thing apart, no?  It's not inconceivable that something  dropped down into a gear then got wedged in the first time the gears tried to mesh.  It might be worth spinning those gears and taking a careful look between all the teeth.

I have already marked the flywheel and rotated it all the way around and the teeth look fine.I also removed the bottom inspection cover and checked it the flywheel has nothing to do with this.The meshing gears spin freely and slide good on the shaft.Everything mechanical in the start system is perfect and it is easily meshing into the flywheel.I also drove this car 8 miles last monday when I pull started the car and it ran perfectly.

[KongaMan]

23 minutes ago, carmover said:

I have already marked the flywheel and rotated it all the way around and the teeth look fine.I also removed the bottom inspection cover and checked it the flywheel has nothing to do with this.The meshing gears spin freely and slide good on the shaft.Everything mechanical in the start system is perfect and it is easily meshing into the flywheel.I also drove this car 8 miles last monday when I pull started the car and it ran perfectly.

Again, the question was not concerning the flywheel; it was the teeth on the two starter gears.  When you say they spin freely, that means when they are not engaged with any other gear, correct?  So, the question remains: did you specifically inspect the teeth on those two gears?  Might want to look at the armature gear while you're at it, just to be sure.

Edited March 20, 2018 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[carmover]

9 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Again, the question was not concerning the flywheel; it was the teeth on the two starter gears.  When you say they spin freely, that means when they are not engaged with any other gear, correct?  So, the question remains: did you specifically inspect the teeth on those two gears?  Might want to look at the armature gear while you're at it, just to be sure.

Everything in the charging system that is mechanical is working perfectly.everything was clean and inspected.When I said the gears spin freely I meant when the were not engaged.Of course nothing moves when they are engaged.

[KongaMan]

Just now, carmover said:

Everything in the charging system that is mechanical is working perfectly.everything was clean and inspected.When I said the gears spin freely I meant when the were not engaged.Of course nothing moves when they are engaged.

 

Well, one might suggest that those two statements appear to be at odds.  If everything mechanical was working perfectly, the gears would move when they were engaged.

 

Perhaps more to the point, you continue to insist that 1) the starter works perfectly, and 2) there is no mechanical problem.  Given that there seem to be few other possible explanations, one might politely suggest that there is a very good chance that one of those assertions is incorrect.  Faith is all well and good in the proper place.  In this case, knowledge is better.

[Terry Wiegand]

The more that I read on here, the more that I think it could be a bad ground in the system somewhere, OR it could be the power source.  Meaning a bad battery.  In a DC electrical system such as this, power always flows to the ground.  Just my 2 cents here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[JerryVan]

Carmover,

 

When you add your heavy ground strap, don't just bolt it to the engine block, attach it using one of the s/g mounting bolts and scuff off any paint that might interfere with a good connection. You may have poor ground between the s/g and the block just as easily as you might from the frame to the block.

 

I'm also curious about another comment you made a couple of times and nobody questioned.  You said you could see sparking between the brush/commutator connection a couple of times. What exactly did you mean by that? Did you see sparks at the point where the brush touches the commutator? If you did, there is still a very small gap between the brush & commutator. Even .0001" gap will kill the starter but be enough to jump a spark. Any spark, showing up anywhere, indicates a poor connection.

Edited March 20, 2018 by JerryVan (see edit history)

[garnetkid]

All good suggestions on the ground strap/cable..  get a cable made up at an auto electric shop from 00 cable with ends to fit the negative post and proper eye end to fit the lower mounting bolt on the s/g as JerryVan suggested.Add another ground strap from neg post to the frame to take care of any other grounds ie:lights.  I am sure that would eliminate any doubts as to a proper ground being established.  easier than lifting the engine and cleaning off paint for proper grounding.  If that doesn't work,  will have to come up with something else to eliminate.  Leon 

[JerryVan]

Let me add, I do not believe you have any binding anywhere! That's been proven over and over again and it's also evidenced by the very small voltage drop you noticed when trying to start. If the starter tried at all to overcome binding your voltage would have dropped big time. The small drop indicates to me a poor ground, either externally, (e.g. frame to engine), or internally, as in inside the s/g unit. It may also indicate poor commutation, (i.e. poor connection between starting brushes and commutator). When you apply the starter, is it possible to have someone reach inside the s/g unit with a wood stick and physically push down on the starter brush after it has dropped? (No tremendous force here, don't want to break anything)

 

 

[27donb]

You can jump start a car using battery jumper cables, I would use one from the negative battery post to the starter generator directly to eliminate a ground problem before going to a welding shop or electrical shop or auto parts store looking for the right additional proper gage ground cable to install permanently.   If the ground is bad, that starter should jump to life with a jumper cable grounding it to the battery negative terminal. 

 

For example, my Buick headlights are not that bright.  Why?  Old technology 6 volt system?  Old bulbs?  Bad wiring?  Bad ground? 

 

I didn't just go replace parts or rewire the car... First thing I did was get a jumper wire and go from a good ground to the plated headlight bucket shell to see if the lights got any brighter, to confirm or rule out a bad ground.  I've even done it with a wrench to the radiator shell and the headlight bucket. 

 

A permanent battery cable comes later, after confirming a bad ground is the problem with the starter.  

[carmover]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

 

Well, one might suggest that those two statements appear to be at odds.  If everything mechanical was working perfectly, the gears would move when they were engaged.

 

Perhaps more to the point, you continue to insist that 1) the starter works perfectly, and 2) there is no mechanical problem.  Given that there seem to be few other possible explanations, one might politely suggest that there is a very good chance that one of those assertions is incorrect.  Faith is all well and good in the proper place.  In this case, knowledge is better.

The gears can't move when they are engaged to the flywheel because it is now in position to turn the motor.I know how these gears work and as I said I have inspected  them and nothing is wrong with them .This is knowledge!

[KongaMan]

The gears can move when engaged with the flywheel; that's why they exist.  That's not to say that you can turn the engine over by grabbing the starter gears, but they do need to move when engaged.  Can you disable the engine so it doesn't fire, engage the starter gears, then turn the engine by hand?

 

And if I may be picky, you said you inspected the flywheel gear; I must have missed it when you said you had inspected the starter and armature gears.

[carmover]

28 minutes ago, 27donb said:

You can jump start a car using battery jumper cables, I would use one from the negative battery post to the starter generator directly to eliminate a ground problem before going to a welding shop or electrical shop or auto parts store looking for the right additional proper gage ground cable to install permanently.   If the ground is bad, that starter should jump to life with a jumper cable grounding it to the battery negative terminal. 

 

For example, my Buick headlights are not that bright.  Why?  Old technology 6 volt system?  Old bulbs?  Bad wiring?  Bad ground? 

 

I didn't just go replace parts or rewire the car... First thing I did was get a jumper wire and go from a good ground to the plated headlight bucket shell to see if the lights got any brighter, to confirm or rule out a bad ground.  I've even done it with a wrench to the radiator shell and the headlight bucket. 

 

A permanent battery cable comes later, after confirming a bad ground is the problem with the starter.  

I have already done that with jumper cables and nothing happens.Jason Smith has said that thy whole start/gen needs to be grounded to the block and not just at the bolts.He said to take the s/g off and grind all the paint from the mounting pad behind the starter and make sure the block is well grounded which right now it isn't getting any ground at the rear motor mounts due to me painting the engine in these areas.

[carmover]

1 minute ago, KongaMan said:

The gears can move when engaged with the flywheel; that's why they exist.  That's not to say that you can turn the engine over by grabbing the starter gears, but they do need to move when engaged.  Can you disable the engine so it doesn't fire, engage the starter gears, then turn the engine by hand?

 

And if I may be picky, you said you inspected the flywheel gear; I must have missed it when you said you had inspected the starter and armature gears.

The gears are not the problem they would move if the starter would come to life.When I said they wouldn't move I mean't by hand.As far as turning the engine by hand with the starter engaged to the flywheel I have already done that.

[27donb]

41 minutes ago, carmover said:

I have already done that with jumper cables and nothing happens.Jason Smith has said that thy whole start/gen needs to be grounded to the block and not just at the bolts.He said to take the s/g off and grind all the paint from the mounting pad behind the starter and make sure the block is well grounded which right now it isn't getting any ground at the rear motor mounts due to me painting the engine in these areas.

 

I understand that the end result will be starter generator grounded to engine,  engine grounded to chassis. But for now, forget engine, chassis.  

 

The ultimate ground is the negative post on the battery. The starter generator doesn't know the difference whether it's on a bench or bolted to an engine. Ground it the same way it was grounded on the bench test, ground cable directly from clean scraped bare metal starter generator housing to negative post on battery. The positive cable already goes from the positive battery post directly to the starter generator terminal.

 

This would quickly eliminate all chassis,  engine and wiring ground issues.

[carmover]

1 hour ago, 27donb said:

 

I understand that the end result will be starter generator grounded to engine,  engine grounded to chassis. But for now, forget engine, chassis.  

 

The ultimate ground is the negative post on the battery. The starter generator doesn't know the difference whether it's on a bench or bolted to an engine. Ground it the same way it was grounded on the bench test, ground cable directly from clean scraped bare metal starter generator housing to negative post on battery. The positive cable already goes from the positive battery post directly to the starter generator terminal.

 

This would quickly eliminate all chassis,  engine and wiring ground issues.

Don, as I said before I have already tried that with the jumper cables battery negative to the starter bottom bolt and nothing happens.

[27donb]

5 minutes ago, carmover said:

Don, as I said before I have already tried that with the jumper cables battery negative to the starter bottom bolt and nothing happens.

 

It's a long and circular thread... 

 

That should mean ground is ruled out, which leaves bad battery, weak s/g under load, or mechanical binding.  You seem to have ruled out anything mechanical, so the s/g and battery should be load tested. 

[KongaMan]

40 minutes ago, 27donb said:

 

It's a long and circular thread... 

 

That should mean ground is ruled out, which leaves bad battery, weak s/g under load, or mechanical binding.  You seem to have ruled out anything mechanical, so the s/g and battery should be load tested. 

 

Except that he's also ruled out the s/g and the battery.

[maok]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:30 PM, carmover said:

The starter was completely rebuilt by Jason Smith less than 2 years ago.This was a complete rebuild New bushings ,rewound armature a new commutator and new brushes and a new machined roller for the brushes.When I removed the start gen about 5 months ago the starter was turning the motor perfectly.Everything in the start system has been checked and rechecked and all gears and shaft is working perfectly The starter was bench tested and works fine.I feel the same as everybody else does that the starter should at least turn the engine over with the plugs out.There is one other thing that could be happening is the battery.I use a n Optima gel 6 volt battery  and have the proper battery maintainer.When I put the battery back in the car for the restart I bent the ground post and bent it back using a small hammer.I was pretty sure that I damaged the battery so I hooked up the maintainer up and it annilized the battery and gave it a clean bill of health and I let it charge to a full charge and it is now in the monitoring mode.i ran another test on the hot post and I am getting a full 6 volts.I hate to buy a 6 volt battery unless I need too but I might buy a cheap lead/acid one to try.I put a compression guage on one of the cyllinders And tried to turn it with the crank and when it reached the top of it's stroke it would stop me for a second and I was unable to crank it round and round,but all of the cyllinders open with the plugs out I can crank it around three or four times before it wears me out.

 

If you haven't already, try another battery.

Edited March 20, 2018 by maok
added info (see edit history)

[Mikefit]

.Ronnie : I would try what  Jerry Van spoke about pushing the pos starter brush down while trying to start it would need 2 people to do that .  Mike

[ROD W]

Hang in there Ron.   Don,t sell the car.   You have spent the big money .  You have a new rebuilt engine that is running well.   There is just this starter problem to sort out.   Some times when I get frustrated with a problem,   I walk away and leave it for a while ( a week a month )   and then return later with a fresh mind.   You keep saying the starter is not the problem as it was working before the engine rebuild and is a recent rebuild.   But it is the starter that is not working.   It was sitting for 5 months so some corrosion could have occurred between connections.    In this part of the world we have wasps that build mud nests,   if you leave something for a short time it is sure to have mud nests in it.   As others have said,   I would run an earth  cable from the starter to the chassis.   Clean all wire connections in the S/G, emery and tighten.   Connect another battery to eliminate the battery   As I think kongaman said in another post ,   put emery cloth around the commutator and turn the starter by hand to ensure a good connection of the brushes on the commutator.   Check the bottom brushes also to ensure they are  making a good connection with the commutator.   Could there be a problem  in the  ignition switch.  Bypass the ignition by running wires from the  A and F terminals straight to the battery.    I am sure there would be somebody who would have a spare S/G,   try dropping another  S/G in.   This is cheap compared to an engine rebuild.   Get somebody else to look at the car,  fresh eyes may be able to find the problem.

Edited March 21, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history)

[carmover]

Something to think about is the starter spun on the bench and i know the brush is contacting the commutator.I also removed the tapered shaft and the fork and bolted the starter back on the engine and hooked up jumper cables straight from the battery and it spun on the car.when I reinstalled the tapered shaft and fork it would not spin.This makes me think that the brush may not quite touch the commutator with the shaft pulled back.Jason Smith and my local starter man both said that even with a tight motor the starter should attempt to start.This one is not even trying to start.I am going to try to push down on the brush and see if it will turn.I am thinking that it could be in that shaft.

[bradsan]

Ron

 

I tried to check check each post  carefully but you have manged to collect 8 pages of help here , so apologies for either repeating someone or stating the obvious but i did do search of the thread and

1) got no hits for polarity, so I'll throw it out there for consideration.

Buick is negative ground so it shouldn't be an issue for you but I got to thinking about it as a lot of vehicles back then were positive ground. Battery terminals and cable ends can get worn.

Just another thing to double check back at the battery if you haven't already.

Put another way, is the SG spinning the right direction?

2) there have been several suggestions to do a torque test on the SG but I'm thinking the other way round. We've discarded the idea of the mechanical gear/linkage issue but could you test that by disconnecting the battery , depressing the starter pedal and trying to manually turn the starter gear itself and see if it 'feels' right ? Would have to disconnect the WP shaft I guess. Or perhaps try hand cranking from the front of the car with starter out and then again with starter pedal pressed down ( battery disconnected of course!). Is there a difference?

 

Brad

Edited March 21, 2018 by bradsan
Thought some more about what I said! (see edit history)

[bradsan]

Ron

 

I almost missed the part where it started and ran! Even if you had to hand crank it,  I think that is pretty exciting and encouraging .

Are you happy with how it ran? Had to be better than the 5 cylinder engine you had before.

Maybe a video of a running engine is in order!

Just another thought, was the SG output as expected when the engine was running?

 

Brad

Edited March 21, 2018 by bradsan
More thoughts (see edit history)

[carmover]

7 hours ago, bradsan said:

Ron

 

I almost missed the part where it started and ran! Even if you had to hand crank it,  I think that is pretty exciting and encouraging .

Are you happy with how it ran? Had to be better than the 5 cylinder engine you had before.

Maybe a video of a running engine is in order!

Just another thought, was the SG output as expected when the engine was running?

 

Brad

Brad,I t ran real good.It had a slight miss at the exhaust as I expected because the valves were a little loose,  after I got it hot I did the final adjustment so it should run perfect now The oil pressure came right up and stayed in a good range and I let it run for about 2 hours and it cooled good.I am going to pull it off again before long and I will try to get a video.The SG showed to be charging.

[Brian_Heil]

18 minutes ago, carmover said:

The SG showed to be charging

 

This is key.

 

The same armature and field coils that make charge also make cranking torque, but through a different set of brushes and commutator.

 

So your armature and fields are good as are your charging brushes and wiring hook-up (connections to field and coil and meter) or you would not be making charge.

 

You say your battery is good.

 

You say jumper cables direct to the S/G and battery don't cause any change/improvement.  So not a ground or feed issue.

 

And your starter gear set in the engine mount housing are free to rotate and move fore and aft to engage the pinion gear and flywheel gear.

 

I go back to the starting brushes not being in full contact.  I had worn starter brushes once and it did the same thing.  There just was not enough downward force on the starter brushes to draw enough current to make enough energy/torque.  And as I mentioned in a previous post above, I proved this was the case by pushing down on both brushes with two wood dowels as the wife pushed down on the starter pedal and the starter then worked. 

 

Low starter brush pressure or poor contact for any number of reasons.

     brush hung up

     short worn brush

     weak or broken or missing brush spring

     dirty brush or commutator

     engagement roller and dowel not adjusted properly

 

I've not seen you say you have pushed down on both brushes as you also engage the starter pedal/lever/brush slide/roller to see if it then starts.