carmover

25 Buick first start issues

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Many summers ago, I lost a leather belt while on tour & just wound some twine around the pulleys to finish the tour.  When I got home, I rummaged through my leather supply and found that my son's belt that he hand tooled many years ago in Cub Scouts was a perfect fit.  So I called him & asked if I could use it to replace the fan belt in our 13 Buick.  He said that would be cool!  So I used a metal lacing kit like the one in the photo below to make it work.  So, now we have a "family heirloom" in the car with little ducks, horses and my son's name embossed in it.

 

Flat Belt Lacing.jpg

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Well I fixed the bad ground connection and stepped on the pedal and it did not turn the motor.When the shop manually worked the brushes it spun the starter real fast so everything was working like it should.I decided to get my Wife to push the starter while I watched the brushes and when she pushed the pedal the brushes did not come all the way down to the armature.I thought that I finally found the problem so I removed the starter pedal and manually worked the gears into mesh and the brushes appear to be touching the armature as best as I can tell.When I put power to it it did nothing.What is going on ?This is driving me crazy!

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Ron

If the starter turned properly when tested at the shop when the starter brushes were manually engaged, it means the starter brushes are not engaging properly when the starter /generator is in the car.    There is a large shaft with a tapered end which raises  and lowers the top brushes.   Only the top brushes raise and lower. both  the bottom brushes are in contact with the commutator all the time and can be removed by undoing the two screw as in photo two .   That tapered shaft can be adjusted back and forward,  so the brushes raise and lower correctly.  In these photos the tapered shaft is not in place.  In  photo 3 you  can see the starter brush is engaged and the smaller generator brush is raised ( these brushes are very worn and need replacing )  When you stomp on the starter pedal the tapered shaft moves backward  which engages the starter bush and disengages the generator brush.   Only one brush can be engaged at  a time as they are connected by a lever as seen in the first photo.   At the top end of this lever there is a insulated bush which is often broken.  This needs replacing if broken.  You can raise and lower the top brushes with your finger to check they are working correctly.  All the springs need to be in place to hold the brushes in tension.    It sounds to me, that the tapered shaft is not moving far  enough backwards to allow the starter brush  to engage.    There is a rubber roller ( bottom photo )   that runs on the tapered shaft. If this is broken the brushes will not lift and lower.  If this roller is not turning properly it will develop a flat spot  which can be seen on this roller.

 

 

 SAM_0051.thumb.JPG.ee2cee824bdd3bedca184bec29c96ac1.JPGSAM_0050.thumb.JPG.5433fc3c656ca5a55be688c81d883cb4.JPG, disengaging the generator brush.  

 

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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Rod, I already know that,but the problem that I am speaking of is the brushes are correctly on the armature and the armature is hot and nothing is happening.I put a meter on the armature and it shows a full 6 volts.I removed the start pedal and with a pry bar I manually pulled the shaft back and nothing happened after the brushes dropped and contacted the armature.I thought that would make the starter come alive but nothing happened.I know something is wrong on the pedal assembly but shouldn't it start manually as I have described ? The shaft was all of the way back and the brushes were on the hot armature.

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Ron.     The brushes run on their commutators.   The armature is the windings.   This should not get hot if power is only connected for a short time.  Maybe there is a short somewhere.

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Check all the wires,  that there are no shorts,   there are insulators between many of the connections.  You can bench test the S/G either on the bench or in the car by  bypassing the ignition switch.   When bench testing the S/G I had the tapered shaft in  so  both the starter and generator could be checked  that they were both working   by engaging either set of brushes.

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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Rod,when I said armature I meant comutaters and the brushes were in contact .when it was at the shop it ran but it won't run on the car with the same configuration as it did at the shop.and it is getting 6 volts at the brushes.The start /gen had a complete rebuild less than 2 years ago which included a rewound armature and new comutaters and brushes and also new bushings and a machined roller.this was a $2500.00 complete rebuild and when I tore the car down 4 months ago the whole start system was working perfectly and I have done nothing but remove it and reinstall it.

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If they bench checked it, then it's back to the wiring in the car. Or another basic thing, the transmission is in neutral and the clutch pedal is down when trying to start it?

 

It sounds like the starter is trying to work because you said it is hot, but something is stopping it, either a short or a mechanical reason.

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When I said the starter was hot I meant that it was getting the right voltage.There is nothing wrong with the starter.I also stated that the brushes are in contact with the commutator and the gears are meshed with the flywheel and still nothing is happening. and it starting to make me drift back to the engine being too tight or something  and the clutch is not down and it is in neutral and the clutch and transmission has nothing to do with it.From What I see is it has everything that it is supposed to have and still does not work and it is very frustrating.

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Ron,    If it were me I would isolate the S/G  to eliminate anything else that may be preventing the starter turning.  Remove distributor,  separate S/G from water pump,  disconnect the starter pedal and gears,  (  this eliminates any mechanical issue,  that may be preventing the starter turning as 27donb said ) and  disconnect the ignition switch.   Then bench test  the S/G  in the car  by running an earth lead straight from the battery   _ve  terminal to the S/G.  you also need to attach electrical wires to terminals  A and F  and connect these to the battery + ve terminal as in my pic above.   This way you can test that both the  generator is working when its brushes are engaging and the starter is working when its brushes are engaging  by moving the tapered shaft back and forward.   Ensure you only touch the earth lead to the S/G  as it will turn the S/G motor over quickly.

If you are able to turn the engine over by hand  with the plugs out.   the starter should have no problems at all,   Just my opinion.

 

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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I have the S/G out of my 1920  at the moment.   Are you able to move the gears backward ( sorry forward not backward )  as in this pic,  so they are not engaged when testing the starter.

Ron when you rebuilt your engine,  did you remove the one way clutch gear.  Just  wondering, if this is put in back to front whether it would prevent the starter turning.

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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Rod the 20 is easier to see the flywheel than the 25 but I know I had it meshed manually when I put the pry bar and moved it over because it came all the way to the back of the housing and the brushes were in contact to the commutator everything is assembled properly.the water pump and the shaft turns perfectly.The only thing that I took out of the starter gear box was the fork and the tapered shaft which I reassembled perfectly and as said in earlier post is the starter/gen was tested at a shop and so was the battery.When you turn on the switch the armature starts rotating as it should but when it meshes it stops and does nothing else.It doesn't even try to start the engine.the gears are spinning and sliding like they should.I have tried it with the battery cables and the jumper cables and even tried it with both cables[ battery cables and jumper cables] and tested the start brushes with a meter and am getting 6 volts.As far as the engine being too tight with the plugs out I can crank it round and round about 4 turns before I tire out but with the plugs in I have to lift the crank and push it down with all my muscle.

Edited by carmover (see edit history)

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Here is the pictures of the brush in contact and the gears all the way back and meshing with the flywheel and the meter shows 6 volts at the starter brushes.

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carmover,  Is your car ready to move and operate if you try to start it by pulling it?  Again, mine acted that away when I tried to start it years ago, pulled it and let it run for a half hour or so.  I don't think it takes much of a tight engine like you are saying yours is to prevent the starter from rotating it.  The starters can be tested for their torque with a special tool to see if they are up to manufactures specs.   Don't ask me how I know, but make sure your distributor is not out 180 deg when you try to start it!!!!  I will see if I can find the instructions on how to test (bench) for torque.  Leon

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Carmover,  here are the instructions for testing the torque.  It is in the 25 Buick Master shop manual, but would apply to the standard as well.  Did your shop do that test?  Leon5a9cb82fe07a7_Scan1.thumb.jpeg.979e7de0820f7ab7b28826cc47b3a221.jpeg

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Leon the shop didn't do a torque test they did a test of the brushes and the armature.The starter was completely remanufactured less than 2 years ago.   Ronnie

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Leon, I am planning to pull start the car pretty soon I have got to get the winch on my trailer wired and me and a friend are going to take it to an abandoned grocery store and try to pull start it.I live in a rural area and it would be too dangerous to do it on these roads.This should clear it up for as to whether it is too tight or starter system issues once and for all.

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the inside of the SG look perfect.  Good luck pull starting . I am just a week or 2 from being in the same spot the engine  was just rebuilt and I know it has never been started as of yet . kyle 

Edited by sligermachine
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This is an interesting topic because I have always used a hill or push started a car.   I pulled a hamstring doing this method as well.  This also involved "popping the clutch" as you had to get up a little speed before setting things in motion.  Pulling a car, I would be afraid to run one car into the other.  Is there a safe method to do this that is gentle to the motor and the drive train?   

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1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Is there a safe method to do this

 

Indeed, make sure the brakes work properly before you do this and use a reasonable length of rope so you have reaction time.

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I am going to use my Farm Tractor to pull it out of the shop and up the hill to the driveway.I have a cable sling that has clevises on both ends to keep the car from coming loose going up the hill.Once in the driveway I am going to try to pull start it with the tractor but it is a dirt drive and if it doesn't work I am going to take it to a nearby abandoned road with a closed warehouse at the other end and pull it with a pickup truck.I have a friend that is going to help me and we are both real good at pulling cars with chains on these country backroads.My driveway is 900 feet long so I hope I can do it there!

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you don,t have to pull it fast, just put it in second gear and put the clutch in when it fires up.  Make sure the vacum tank and carb is full.  Take a video for all of us to enjoy.  Would be fun to be there.  Leon

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Let me say I think your pull start idea is the right one.  However on every HCCA weekend many cars start on the crank.  Here's how, make sure you have spark retarded, set to fire after TDC from the battery and points, through the spark plug openings pour a tenth of a dram of gas into each cylinder, not too much, reinstall the plugs, then install the crank at the bottom of the stroke and lift, slow and steady.  You do not have to spin the engine as if you are the starter motor, just compress the fuel and let the spark plug fire the charge and spin the motor.  If you have spark at the right time, fuel and compression it will run.  Just something to try while you wait for your friend with the tow strap.  Hope all is well in Alabama, Gary

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47 minutes ago, cxgvd said:

".................... If you have spark at the right time ................"

 

Gary and Ronnie , I strongly feel an attempt to hand start this admittedly still tight new engine would not be time well-spent. Some extremely strong young guy probably could manage it , but : IF you have spark at slightly the WRONG time , the extremely strong young guy could end up wishing he had done something else that afternoon ! Ronnie , what break in oil are you using ? IF YOUR ATTEMPT TO COMPRESSION START YOUR ENGINE IS SUCCESSFUL , DO NOT FORGET TO IMMEDIATELY MONITOR YOUR OIL PRESSURE IN THE INEVITABLE EXCITEMENT !  And again , if you can turn the engine several times with the plugs out , the starter should be able to do the same. Oh , and thanks for the pictures ! What an attractive car ! I looked on the map to see where you live in Alabama. Looks like you have many scenic winding country roads to the North , West , and South of you. Even a cruise down to the coast. First salt seawater I ever saw was at the beach in Alabama back in '52. That white sand looked like snow to me ! I was 7 1/2 years old  , but it made such an impression on me that I still remember !  Good luck Ronnie !     - Carl 

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