carmover

25 Buick first start issues

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I have my freshly rebuilt engine in my 25 Buick Standard.Today I was ready to start it for the first time and when I stepped on the start pedal pedal did not turn the engine.I have checked to wiring and all wiring is hooked up correctly and tight.I took the cover off of the start /gen and the cover plate off of the start gears and when you turn on switch the start /gen armature starts to turn but when it meshes the starter armature stops.I can see the brushes are raising and lowering like they should.The one thing that I did notice was the start gears are a little tight feeling.I can turn them but they have a little drag to them.I notice a little primer overspray on them.I am wondering if I can remove the gears and clean and lubricate them and polish the shaft with out too much trouble.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

What good battery are you using? Make sure it is doing its job properly. You can clean anything if you can get to it.

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I think your  newly rebuilt engine may be a little too tight.  Try pull starting it and run it for awhile to loosen it up.  Had to that with mine when first starting it.  Leon 

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Ensure you are using heavy duty leads from the battery to the  chassis/frame and battery to the starter/generator.  6 volt require heavier duty leads than 12 volt.   Ensure there is a proper earth where the earth lead connects to the chassis  ( remove any paint on the chassis at the connection )     Check that the starter brushes are properly engaging with the starter commutator over the full width of the brush  when the starter pedal is depressed.   As Spinneyhill  said  turn the engine over by hand  to make sure it is turning freely ( you can remove the spark plugs to check this ).  Make sure you have the correct firing order  ( distributor leads going to correct plugs ).  

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It will turn over with the hand crank with the spark plugs out but is pretty tight with the plugs in.it is in perfect timing and firing order.I have an optima 6 volt gel battery and it annalized at 95%charge and I charged it up to 100% still no luck.All connections are clean and tight and all lights and both horns work perfectly

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The starter won't turn it at all.I can turn it over with the crank with the plugs out easily but harder with the plugs in. The gears for the starter can be turned by hand but feel real sticky and it has been discussed on this forum before that those gears must slide and turn freely.

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10 minutes ago, carmover said:

The starter won't turn it at all.I can turn it over with the crank with the plugs out easily but harder with the plugs in. 

Does the starter turn it fast with the plugs out? If not pull it and see what is going on.

Edited by JFranklin (see edit history)
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JFranklin, the 1925 models still had the combination starter/generator unit.  It is a little bit of a complicated issue to to just pull this whole unit off to check it for operation.  From what he has described, it sounds like the mains could be a little bit too snug.  It is also possible that the rods could be in the same situation and together he could have an engine that will need further attention.  If the bearings are tight like this then the oil film will suffer and once the engine is started the bearings could be damaged.  IF it were me, I would drop the pan and look at and check the bearings one by one before trying to start it up.  It possibly could be less costly to take this approach.  Just my humble opinion here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Terry, It is not all that tight and it can be turned by the hand crank.The start gears were sticky feeling and I cleaned them and lubricated them and now they slide and spin freely like the should.At some point in this cars life the little casting that the starter pedal lever sits down in broke off and somebody made a repair using a small medal strip that they brazed one end and and used 2 small screws to mount it .The last time I had this same problem it was from to much freeplay in the starter pedal that wouldn't let the shaft com back far enough to mesh or let the brushes contact the armature.I took the piece out and carefully bent the end up taking all of the freeplay out and that fixed it . After checking it this morning I found an inch of freeplay in the starter pedal and the brushes not coming in contact with the armature.I think that in tearing the car down for the rebuild the heavy spring pressure on the starter pedal bent the piece a little bit as I was removing the pedal assembly.I think this will fix it I will keep everyone posted.One other thing on the engine being to tight I had a profesional racecar engine builder build me up a shortblock and he used a lot of assembly lube and I have lubed everythng real good before I put the pan on so I am hoping everything is going to be ok. With the plugs out I can turn the engine easily but with the plugs in it is more difficult like you would expect from the new compression.

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Does the starting motor turn the engine over with the plugs out?  Y -N. That was my question and I don't see an answer, of course I may be blind.

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Ronnie, your explanation here changes the way to go about things.  You obviously know about the starter/generator unit and its complexity.  We will all hope that you can get things adjusted and back to working like they should.  Keep us up to date and let us all know how sweet that engine runs when everything is done.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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JFranklin, I am sorry about that I thought I answered your question.The starter motor is not turning at all and I have determined that the pedal has some freeplay in it as I explained in the earlier post that is causing the shaft to not com back far enough to allow the brushes to contact the armature so the starter can't energise and turn the motor.I have since my last post removed the start gen combination and removed the fork and cone shaft and have carefully removed all of the slack from the starter pedal.This also gave me a chance to check out the gears that mesh to the flywheel and they are all free spinning and easily sliding back and meshing

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That is what I was thinking but didn't want to tell you to go to the trouble of pulling things until I knew. Make sure to test it on the bench after repair if you can. Good luck with it. And you could still start your car by hand if you wanted to hear it run! I had a Ford T without a starter and it was kinda fun, at times,

red t.jpg

Edited by JFranklin
added thought (see edit history)
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Well I checked and repaired any starter possible problems and everything checks out fine but the car still won't turn over.I am thinking you guys are right about the engine being too tight.I talked with my engine builder today and he wan'ts me to do a compression test with the hand crank on one cyllinder.He thinks that the cam is advanced too much causing too much compression.If that turns out not to be the case he said he could come to my shop and check the mains and rods and do whatever is needed to get the old girl up and running again.I will keep everyone posted.I can turn the crank round and round like an ice cream freezer with the plugs out but it is tight enough to wear me out after about for revolutions.With the plugs in you can't hardly turn it.

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My 24 Master takes a good hard push to make the starter connection after it motors with the ignition on.  Most starter issues are due to poor ground connections.  So, you might also try adding a second direct ground from the battery to the starter/generator before you get too far into it.  

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carmover,    Is the starter motor  turning  the engine over when the plugs are out   now that you have fixed the starter  problems.

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)

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The starter won't turn it over at all even with the plugs out.When the starter meshes it stops.

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Sure sounds like a starter problem to me. If you can windmill that engine around with your good right arm with plugs out , but the starter can't budge it , the problem MUST lie with the starter somewhere. By the way , Ron , from the little teaser pic I see here , that is one fine looking automobile ! When you get a chance (or to take your mind off the problem at hand) , please post a few (or more) , pics of your beauty ! I open my primer cups up on my '24 Cadillac from time to time during layup : I also am good for about 4 or 5 turns. Chronologically I am 6 years and 20 days older than you , but the doctors say physically I am like a guy in his late 80s. So picture this beat up old guy turning a old 314 cu. in. V8 with the primer cups open. It is not tight , and lubricated with synthetic oil. Maybe about the same resistance as turning yours ? So your starter should have no trouble with the plugs out. Right ? Did you ever have a hint of starter problems before the rebuild ?    - Carl

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Go back to the starter motor because the engine is not your problem. I'm not familiar with that make but will ask what voltage is the battery. Did you try a new battery? I'm thinking the starter may need a rebuild.

Edited by JFranklin (see edit history)

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Ron, 

    Not sure what your battery voltage is either.  Consider jump starting it just to ensure you have enough juice.  Short cranks so that the starter does not get hot.  Once it does crank, perhaps just a touch of starting fluid as the carb is going to not be quite right, but it needs some spinning and you may not be there yet.  Always in moderation, don't want to over do it.      Hugh

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carmover,  I am sure you have done this,  but I will double check.   Remove the plate on the back of the starter/generator,   with the ignition off,   get somebody to stomp on the starter pedal.  Look to ensure the generator brushes are lifting  off the small commutator and the starter brushes  are engaging with the larger commutator.   If both these actions are not happening  the starter will not work.  Also ensure the starter gear is engaging with the flywheel when the starter pedal is depressed.

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Ron, 

Here are some photos of the inside of the starter pedal parts.  It sounds like someone made some repairs at one time.  Just so you can see what it should look like.   Hugh

 

5a955f21993bb_1925BuickStdstarterslide7.thumb.JPG.1337adfca70bd2b6bc905f27f288726d.JPG

5a955f5ff280b_1925BuickStdstarterslide4.thumb.JPG.87a9c8848588767b554f87c7a52463a6.JPG

5a955faf9cd94_IMG_5972StarterPivot.thumb.JPG.e2f55bce07a7e4fc5123424b819154e7.JPG

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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I concur with others.  If you can hand crank the engine without plugs, the engine is not too tight. 

 

Starter problem. 

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