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25 Buick first start issues


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Well I have found the problem,as it has been suggested I took a wooden dowel and pushed down on the start brush and starter came to life and turned the motor.Now that I know what it is I will try to fix it and let everyone know how it comes out today.

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3 minutes ago, garnetkid said:

whoohoo!!!  that was easy!  way to go.  All this "crowd input" worked.  If the brushes are not new they could be too short and then the spring pressure is not enough for good strong contact. Leon

Leon,This has been a real challenge to find and I knew it was something simple I have just got to figure out how to fix it.I am very excited! I knew with everyone helping me it would work out eventually and I appreciate all the expert advise I have gotten from everyone.

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1 hour ago, carmover said:

Well I have found the problem,as it has been suggested I took a wooden dowel and pushed down on the start brush and starter came to life and turned the motor.Now that I know what it is I will try to fix it and let everyone know how it comes out today.

 

Delighted to have helped.

 

Now figure out why your starter brush to commutator contact is poor and report back.

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Terry,    The brushes are not adjustable,    it is just the spring tension  that allows for the wear in the brushes.   The bracket that holds the brush can be bent to increase the downward pressure of the brush on the commutator

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I wouldn't bend anything.  New longer brushes are the solution.  Once you bend the bracket you have weakened it and the pressure from the spring will tend to bend it back.  I would have thought for what you paid the brushes would have all been new.

Glad to read that it is all working out.  Hope you have no more frustrations.

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On this starter,  the original pressed metal brackets  have been replaced  by cast  brackets.  I would say the original brackets do lose there strength over time.     ERROR,  this is the generator brush bracket  that was replaced   not the starter brush bracket.

SAM_0054.thumb.JPG.90515f0aca52da9a121a0dfdffdb9bf7.jpg

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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Agree. Non adjustable brush position. 

 

And a number of the linkage pieces are cast on mine. They would crack before they bend. 

 

In a pinch I have elongated the holes in the brush to get by and increase/fix the contact pressure on a worn brush but you are just prolonging the inevitable but that was on a tour in Kentucky and the Buick finished the week without getting the crank out. The brushes were replaced once home. 

 

Another comment is the starter brushes are large and are only in contact briefly when started. Once set up properly they last a very long time. 

 

The charging brushes are always in contact and are one fourth as large as the starter brush. They do wear over time. 

Edited by Brian_Heil (see edit history)
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I have now got it working without the starter pedal perfectly but when I put the pedal in it is trying but won't turn the engine so now I have got to figure out the starter pedal but I am getting closer. :D

Edited by carmover (see edit history)
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You are right there Tinindian and Brian.   It is the generator brush bracket that is of pressed metal not the starter bracket.  the starter brush bracket is  cast and can not be bent.

post-64273-143142988239.jpg

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1 hour ago, Brian_Heil said:

Make a mark on both before you loosen for reference. 

 

A small change in throw/angle goes s long way. 

Mine is a little different as at some time in its life the part where the pedal lever attatches was broken off and someone took a little piece of flat metal and brazed it on the end to give something for the lever to catch on and attatched it with 2 small screws. sometime back the pedal quit working and I repaired it by taking the piece off and putting it in a vice and bent it up  carefully making sure it would just fit the lever and it has worked ever since.But in trying to get it to work this time since the engine was built I bent it a little more and this might be where the problem is

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13 minutes ago, ROD W said:

Here,s a set of brushes for sale on Ebay for $140   says for  22= 25  Buick Delco  S/G   Is that expensive or would that be the right  price

s-l1600.jpg

s-l1600.jpg

I don't want to spend $140.00 if Jason has brushes I want him to send me some to fix this problem!

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I don't think it has anything to do with the pedal or shaft,I think it is with the brush..After I removed the pedal I tried to meshed it by hand and with the shaft all the way back it was trying to turn and sparking at the start brush and pushed down on the brush with the wood rod and it came to life..I also noticed that the roller is half way down the tapered shaft and the best I can tell the roller is dropped all the way down and the brush is real close to the commutator but not making a good connection.

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Ron, 

     You talk about a part that was broken and repaired.  Do you have a photo of this?  All my SG parts are out of the car and I can verify any part or provide a drawing of any piece you need.   

Lets start here.  Are these parts correct?  Hugh

5ab32f2b162b2_1925BuickStandardstarterslide1.thumb.JPG.9f7676258b597fe9902511cfe5fdc1d6.JPG

IMG_5972 Starter Pivot.JPG

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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4 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ron, 

     You talk about a part that was broken and repaired.  Do you have a photo of this?  All my SG parts are out of the car and I can verify any part or provide a drawing of any piece you need.    Hugh

Hugh the part I am refuring to is the fork that slides the gears,mine has a piece broken off the end where the lever from the starter pedal  pushes against to pull the shaft back.I don't have any pictures of it but if I have to take the SG off I can get some.

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3 hours ago, carmover said:

I don't want to spend $140.00 if Jason has brushes I want him to send me some to fix this problem!

 

The ones he sends you might be just like the ones you have.  Or maybe he installed new (weaker) springs as part of the rebuild.  He did return all the parts he replaced, didn't he?

 

Do you know the dimensions of the brushes?  You may be able to make your own from carbon fiber rods at a fraction of the price.

 

I believe it was posted on here earlier how to arc your brushes to match the commutator. If the issue is pressure, you might try stronger springs and/or a shim under the spring arm.

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I was going to tell you to ask Jason for a set of brushes then I see that he is the one selling those.  Ha.

 

But you said your S/G was just rebuilt so it should have brand new brushes.

 

Back in the day 20 some years ago, I made new ones from very large (and very cheap) industrial electric motor bushes.   They are soft and easy to shape with a file and drill, just messy.  But I saved a $100 that I didn't have back when they were $100.

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8 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ron, 

    Is this the part.  172769 Starter Shifter Fork, 1925 Std 6 only

5ab33f5f5a09c_IMG_6047172769Startershifterfork.thumb.JPG.afe426efc4225766f09338b6f43f8102.JPG

Thats it Hugh,The little square box that the arm goes in had the back wall broken off.

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Ron, 

       I think the first order is to determine why this broke in the first place.  Possibly the SG unit was not motoring or there was no battery and someone was determined to push down on the starter pedal and it can't handle that if it is not engaged and can mesh thru the gear teeth?   If the rod is lubricated and slides freely, I would guess that is what happened to it.

Repairing castings is always my last resort.  They are hard to fix properly.  First choice would be to either find another one of these forks or to have a new part fabricated from good steel.    Hugh

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1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ron, 

       I think the first order is to determine why this broke in the first place.  Possibly the SG unit was not motoring or there was no battery and someone was determined to push down on the starter pedal and it can't handle that if it is not engaged and can mesh thru the gear teeth?   If the rod is lubricated and slides freely, I would guess that is what happened to it.

Repairing castings is always my last resort.  They are hard to fix properly.  First choice would be to either find another one of these forks or to have a new part fabricated from good steel.    Hugh

Hugh, This fork is not my problem as this is a good fix and has been working fine for years.The brush is real close to the commutator so close that it is trying to turn the motor and is sparking.All I have to do is touch it with the wooden rod and the starter comes alive and turns the motor.The shaft is all the way up to the bell housing like it should be I just need a touch more pressure on the brush.

Edited by carmover (see edit history)
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Ron, 

    It sounds like the starter brush is not rotating freely on the shaft.  You can remove the front cover and pull the small cotter pin and spring on the end of the support shaft.  This will allow you to remove the Upper Motor brush and clean and lubricate the pivot point.  Note that the Upper Motor Brush arm spring behind the arm is pushing on a stud, and that stud has an insulator on it, and the insulators are fragile.  Probably now a plastic material but used to be Micarta.    

 Hugh

5ab3ec67c5643_Ron1.thumb.JPG.06b7acd2de475f5deabc7e6ce5baa8bd.JPG5ab3ec74756d5_Ron2.thumb.JPG.6a98fb71334511ae869f18a5062cba28.JPG5ab3ec83b1111_Ron3.thumb.JPG.bd390e6e87ee77baced465d21411019d.JPG

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40 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ron, 

    It sounds like the starter brush is not rotating freely on the shaft.  You can remove the front cover and pull the small cotter pin and spring on the end of the support shaft.  This will allow you to remove the Upper Motor brush and clean and lubricate the pivot point.  Note that the Upper Motor Brush arm spring behind the arm is pushing on a stud, and that stud has an insulator on it, and the insulators are fragile.  Probably now a plastic material but used to be Micarta.    

 Hugh

5ab3ec67c5643_Ron1.thumb.JPG.06b7acd2de475f5deabc7e6ce5baa8bd.JPG5ab3ec74756d5_Ron2.thumb.JPG.6a98fb71334511ae869f18a5062cba28.JPG5ab3ec83b1111_Ron3.thumb.JPG.bd390e6e87ee77baced465d21411019d.JPG

Hugh, The only thing is it works perfectly on the bench, you can even hear it hit the commutator.But when on the car with the tapered shaft it is not making full contact.

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Ron, 

    One other thing that could be causing insufficient spring pressure on the Upper Starter brush is the linkage and spring from the upper generator brush.  I would have to think thru all this, but conceptually it is perhaps more likely that the adjustment on the upper brush is preventing the starter brush from making good contact.   Instead of pushing a wood stick on the starter brush, lift up on the generator brush linkage and try engaging the starter.  Or put paper between the starter commutator and the brush and feel how much drag there is when you pull on it.  Then do the same with the arm lifted to see if it is exerting more pressure on the paper.  

5ab3f679d5988_Ron4.thumb.JPG.9bd692adae406b4e36d8ac354b1d41cd.JPG

  

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It may also be a weak spring and/or a brush that is not arced to match the commutator.

 

Get a marker or pencil and cover the face of the brush, then spin the shaft a few times and look at the wear pattern on the brush.

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It looks to me also that the only time the starter brushes are engaged is if the tapered shaft is fully away from the insulating roller.  Perhaps your tapered shaft is not going all the way out and away from the roller.  Maybe that is why it works on the bench and not in the car.  Could the repair to the starter fork be preventing the pointer from moving all the way.

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:33 AM, carmover said:

Well I have found the problem,as it has been suggested I took a wooden dowel and pushed down on the start brush and starter came to life and turned the motor.Now that I know what it is I will try to fix it and let everyone know how it comes out today.

 

How about that. ;) :D

 

Happy for you!

Edited by JerryVan (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

It looks to me also that the only time the starter brushes are engaged is if the tapered shaft is fully away from the insulating roller.  Perhaps your tapered shaft is not going all the way out and away from the roller.  Maybe that is why it works on the bench and not in the car.  Could the repair to the starter fork be preventing the pointer from moving all the way.

Hugh, The strange thing about this whole deal is the shaft is as far back to the bell housing as it can go .I can't see if the roller is touching it or not but looking the best I can it appears that the roller is about half way down the tapered part of the shaft. I don't believe that the fork repair has anything to do with it as it only took up some play at the starter pedal.

Edited by carmover (see edit history)
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If it was a complete rebuild, maybe it's a newer, fatter roller?  Or maybe there's something in the linkage that keeps the shaft from fully retracting.  Is the linkage adjustable?

 

Did you get all the old parts back that were replaced in the rebuild?

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28 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

If it was a complete rebuild, maybe it's a newer, fatter roller?  Or maybe there's something in the linkage that keeps the shaft from fully retracting.  Is the linkage adjustable?

 

Did you get all the old parts back that were replaced in the rebuild?

I checked my records and the rebuilt start/gen was delivered to me April 2017 this whole starter is brand new and the roller is perfect and as I have said many time is it was working perfectly before the rebuild of the engine.Since the brush makes perfect contact to the commutator the shaft is what has to be causing this.I don't think that I got all of the old parts back and I do know the my old roller was worn out.I can't blame the starter itself because it operates like it should off the car and only when the shaft is in there does it cause trouble.

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I now have it working properly although I haven't installed the starter pedal yet.I carefully dressed down and polished the taper on the shaft and it is lifting and dropping the brush as it should.I will keep everyone informed on the results.:)

Edited by carmover (see edit history)
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I am a happy man problem is perfectly solved now!When I step on the starter pedal the starter comes to life and turns the motor perfectly.I did not expect this thread to reach 10 pages but with all of you standing with me and coming up with more and more ideas and helping me solve this mystery, I appreciate it more than words can express.I hope one day I can come to the Nationals and meet you guys face to face!:D

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