Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Hello, My son bought a '65 Chevy from a guy in PA with the "promise" of a title, but it's been a year and no title has been produced. Meantime, the car is in my garage in NJ and my son has been working on it. (We live on the Jersey side of Delaware Water Gap, my son lives on the Pennsylvania side.) The guy he bought the car from has practically fallen off the face of the earth. I would like the car out of my garage and my son would like to put the car on the road. But how and where/which state to get a title has been the dilemma. Is anyone here familiar with the procedures one would have to go through to get a title in either PA or NJ? (We could go with whichever state is easier.) Thank you very much in advance for your feedback. Regards, M.A.M. Edited January 16, 2017 by Mammy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You will find it extremely difficult to get a PA title, near impossible. Best to threaten the seller until he coughs up a title. PA maintains that even if you gave the guy money and he gave you the car you did not in fact buy it since the title was not transferred. Since in their mind you don't own the car you cannot get a title. Only the owner can get a title, Likely he has the title but it has an encumbrance he does not want to or cannot satisfy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 ..or could be that the former owner never had it titled or registered? So, either he never had one, or perhaps lost it. I bet he bought it as a project himself, and never had one. I can't think of a reason why he did not hand over a title while being paid...so I doubt he had one. If he did have it titled in his name, he could apply for a lost title, then sign it over to you. But since he already got paid, he might have just decided to ignore you. There are other ways, some sketchy and some legal, but I would not do that unless I knew for a fact that the last owner really did own it outright. If it was reported as a stolen project, then it will be a legal mess if you try to use these other means to get papers for it. My son and I just looked at a 83 Chevy Silverado pickup local, this morning. He is picking it up right now. It's his first keeper "vintage" resto. We do not need titles for that age in my state, but since it's been off the road for decades, luckily it still had the former title issued in the late 80s. It makes me more at ease, seeing that the title matches, and the lien is properly signed off. I'd hate to see him invest time/money in a vehicle that had no iron-clad proof of ownership. ..he.he, it just pulled in our lot right now.... . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thank you, Restorer. I had come to a similar conclusion about getting a PA title awhile back when I read a blog by a lawyer who happens also to be a classic car enthusiast, but was hoping someone here would know of a loophole. I did some reading on the NJMVC website earlier today but the only scenario that seemed might apply was in securing a title for "an abandoned vehicle". If I/we were to go that route, I'd have to claim the vehicle was abandoned on my property in NJ. (Which it kind of has been), then put it up for sale for public auction...post legal notice in local newspaper of said auction ....record the names of whomever showed up...(IF any showed up)...what they bid... and then IF no one showed up, then and only then would I (as property owner) be able to secure a title. I am not sure what you mean by "encumbrances," though. Please elaborate on that if you have the time. Am also wondering if there is a way to search a VIN number online and trace the owner(s) backwards? <<<<Not sure if I stated that right. Thanks again, M.A.A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Thank you, FJ, as well. I suspect that the guy who sold it to him never had a title. And you're right...my son was not wise (to put it mildly) to have paid the guy without the title in hand. For a long time the guy played him...it will be "this Saturday" (or next) that he'd have the title. Now he is nowhere to be found. I am about ready to have the local junkyard come haul it out of my garage and sell it for scrap metal. Regards, M.A.M. p.s./ good luck with the Silverado. Edited January 16, 2017 by Mammy Additional thought (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Smolinski Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mammy said: I am about ready to have the local junkyard come haul it out of my garage and sell it for scrap metal. Some states won't allow scrapping a car w/o a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thank you, George. Aaaaggghhhhh!!!! I don't know what Jersey's law is on that, but that would be just my luck!!! But another thought came to mind: Assuming I went with the whole ordeal involved in securing title via "abandoned vehicle" route in NJ -- I don't know why my son couldn't attend the "auction" and bid on his own car. Cripes...these things are complicated! Regards, M.A.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Yea, in PA you need to provide the scrap yard with a title, An encumbrance would be a situation where he pledged the car as collateral for a loan and a notation of such in put on the title. The encumbrance has to be released before the title can be transferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 In PA you have to be a licensed salvor to sell a vehicle as abandoned. Not sure about Jersey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) I found this information about 'abandoned vehicles on private property" on NJ's MVC website. It presently appears as the only option. http://www.state.nj.us/mvcbiz/Abandoned/Abandoned_vehicles.htm#privprop p.s/ Thank you for explaining "encumbrance". Edited January 16, 2017 by Mammy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheezestaak2000 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 i'm not sure it's still a valid approach, but in the past, you could obtain an alabama title with a bill of sale. it might be worth looking into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Can you have someone research the vehicle identification number (VIN) to see if turns up anything? Could be done by someone in the auto trade or police. You would want to be sure it's not a stolen car before you go much farther in your efforts to claim it. Terry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Thank you, Cheezestaak. I don't even know if my son HAS a bill of sale. And Terry: YES! Good idea! I do have a family connection to a police office. I think he would be willing to look up the VIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Selling it as abandoned is not as easy as it might seem. Read the details. In the end any money offered for the car beyond your expenses to advertise and sell the car goes to the municipality. At the end of the day you would likely end up with a "Salvage" title which is the kiss of death if your Son ever attempts to sell the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Yes, but there is that clause about "if not able to put up for public auction." IDK....this car has become a MAJOR headache. I just want to be able to park MY car in MY garage. I would like to avoid hiring a NJ lawyer. Grrrr...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Then also, there is this guy in PA: http://www.vintagecarlaw.com/ But at what cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Sorry, but it's a little difficult to be sympathetic. No title, no money given to the seller. If you can't go with a title service, your options are to part it out, sell it as a parts car with no title, or cut it up and scrap the pieces. I've never needed a title to get rid of scrap metal. Edited January 17, 2017 by joe_padavano (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Take a ride to the seedy side of town where the car lots have a row of $2995 cars out front. Look for a dealer that has a vintage car sitting beside the building and tell him your situation. You will probably have your paperwork in a week. Throw in an extra $25 and you will get a fresh inspection sticker for the windshield, too. Give $100 tip and they will recognize you for the next 40 years. Some people have been going to the same places for three or more generations. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 16 minutes ago, Mammy said: Then also, there is this guy in PA: http://www.vintagecarlaw.com/ But at what cost? We have used Attorney Shook's services. Figure $500-$700 and 6 months to.a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You end up with a perfectly legal court directed title. Still somewhat of a hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArticiferTom Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) In Pa you can do a mechanic's type lien and claim title . Just is a lot of trouble to get title . You have to be a business in Pa to do . Edited January 16, 2017 by ArticiferTom (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Thank you, again, Restorer! As a result of this discussion I called and spoke with Mr. Shook just now. He wants $750 retainer plus whatever filing and mileage fees he incurs. (He IS a bit of a distance from us.) I will speak to my son and see what he is willing to pony up for retaining Mr. Shook. (I am thinking to go halves just to get my parking space back.) Thanks again, everyone. I will update this thread when/if we move forward with obtaining a title. Fingers crossed! Edited January 16, 2017 by Mammy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mammy Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 28 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: Take a ride to the seedy side of town where the car lots have a row of $2995 cars out front. Look for a dealer that has a vintage car sitting beside the building and tell him your situation. You will probably have your paperwork in a week. Throw in an extra $25 and you will get a fresh inspection sticker for the windshield, too. Give $100 tip and they will recognize you for the next 40 years. Some people have been going to the same places for three or more generations. Bernie Just saw this, Bernie. NOT a bad idea! Are you wiling to make a referral? If so, please PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superior1980 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I am no expert on this subject, but I am currently dealing with my own title situation and can tell you what I've done. In my case, I bought a car in November where the out of state owner mailed me the title and bill of sale. What he didn't tell me was that the title was still in the name of the person that he had bought the car from, he signed the back as the new owner, but never put it through for transferring into his name. The result was there was no place for me to sign the title and my state wouldn't recognize it. An internet search brought this company to my attention http://www.titlerecovery.com/index.html . I decided to give it a shot and just this morning in my email inbox, I received notice that my application was approved and my registration and license plates were on their way to me. In my case, the company charged me $158 for their services, and my registration and plates are coming from Vermont. I do not live in Vermont, but checking the Vermont DMV website, Vermont doesn't require you to be a resident or have a Vermont drivers license in order to register a car there. They are also a no title state for cars over 15 years old; your registration is your proof of ownership. Vermont did charge me $510 in sales tax, but of course that amount is based on either what you paid for the car, or what the current NADA value is, whichever is higher. I figure I'll keep the car registered in Vermont until the registration gets close to expiring, then as the now-recognized owner of the car, transfer it into my home state. I think what saved me was at least having a bill of sale, but even if you don't have that, you may want to at least contact them and see what they have to say. For me, the process lasted about two months and took place entirely via online, the telephone, and the US mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 This post is only an hour old and already has a bunch of comments. It is a common topic on the forum. It happens a lot. My Son just walked in the house and I told him what I wrote. He laughed and asked if he was a third generation. I said "No, fourth. Gotta count your Great Grandfather." I will buy a car with no papers but the seller has to give a drastic discount. I think the last five cars I have bought I licensed and legally transferred to me as soon as I bought them. That assures there are mine and gives me the green flag to put money into them if I choose. If I become disenchanted with the purchase the sale is from me to the buyer without a string of non-registered owners. It may not seem like a big deal on a project car but time flies by and the paperwork can get put off for a decade or more. Just a question: How many forum readers have owned a car for years that is still in some other person's name legally? So, for reference, I have some personal guidelines. When the internet came along I decided I can risk $3,000 per year, lose it, and not affect anyone in the family but me. I would probably buy a car with no papers up to that limit if I really wanted it. Worst case would not likely be a total loss. I wouldn't buy a modern car without them. Always license and register ASAP. If a problem arises let it happen early. Remember, if you bought it someone else will. I have bought cars I found I didn't like and made money selling them more often than lost. Dealing with car hobbyists is safe and honest, Issues like no title are more commonly stupid problems than dishonesty. And if you are over 20 and can't recognize the difference a little cash forfeiture will smarten you up quickly. A '55 Chevy, I wouldn't expect stupidity. That's a shenanigans type car. The car is probably clean, but has some shady history. Everything can be fixed. It's just a discretionary expense of the hobby. Some are small, some a little bigger. Sit down with your son and figure out a budget and timeline to complete the car. Maybe he will help you push it out to the street on that eye opener. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Key is to have someone check by the VIN if the car has been reported stolen or has a lien against it. If so the car may be seized. Living in Florida I would not consider a car without a clean Florida title (and can check the DMV on the web for the title here). Edited January 16, 2017 by padgett (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 53 minutes ago, ArticiferTom said: In Pa you can do a mechanic's type lien and claim title . Just is a lot of trouble to get title . You have to be a business in Pa to do . As crazy as it sounds a " mechanic's lien" does not apply to cars or work performed on cars in Pennsylvania. A builder can get a machanic's lien, an auto repair shop cannot. The law is seldom like folks think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Mammy said: Thank you, Cheezestaak. I don't even know if my son HAS a bill of sale. And Terry: YES! Good idea! I do have a family connection to a police office. I think he would be willing to look up the VIN. Your first move, if you can make it happen legally, is to run the VIN to see of it's reported stolen. You may not be able to find someone to do this. It's a gray area. Then if that can be done and it's not stolen, proceed with the Vermont deal, or do your own deal. Let's say your brother lived in a non-title State. You sell him the car, he spends X$ to get it registered/insured/taxes paid, legally, then sells it back as a currently registered legal car. Look up NJ Statutes first. In my state, we don't need titles on older cars. If you buy a titled car from another State and bring that title to CT-DMV to get plates...they confiscate/destroy that title and you cannot ever get a replacement title from CT-DMV. I said check NJ Statutes first.: Here in CT, IF I buy a non-stolen, non titled, non currently registered car: To get plates and be legal, I need a genuine honest bill of sale, not faked. Then I fill out the special form and you write your story on "why" there is no current registration, and/or why there is no title, if it came from a titled state. They look it over, then run the VIN, and issue plates. Most States honor a non-titled car IF it came from a non-title State, BUT having current registration in the sellers name is mandatory, and the Reg paper must be the original, and not a copy. 47 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: Everything can be fixed. Yes, Don't panic. Take time to do this the correct way without lying. The Vermont thing, and out of State "sell to brother" is legal. It would not be legal if the car was stolen, or if you are not sure if the seller really owned it, or if VIN plates are switched or whatever. Just me, but I would never buy a old Ebay registration paper or title, that went to another car. That IS illegal . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Title situations are nasty but do vary by state. Not that it helps in this situation but if it were Mass you would be 100% out of luck. Does Broadway in Alabama still do business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, F&J said: Your first move, if you can make it happen legally, is to run the VIN to see of it's reported stolen. You may not be able to find someone to do this. It's a gray area. Then if that can be done and it's not stolen, proceed with the Vermont deal, or do your own deal. Let's say your brother lived in a non-title State. You sell him the car, he spends X$ to get it registered/insured/taxes paid, legally, then sells it back as a currently registered legal car. Look up NJ Statutes first. In my state, we don't need titles on older cars. If you buy a titled car from another State and bring that title to CT-DMV to get plates...they confiscate/destroy that title and you cannot ever get a replacement title from CT-DMV. I said check NJ Statutes first.: Here in CT, IF I buy a non-stolen, non titled, non currently registered car: To get plates and be legal, I need a genuine honest bill of sale, not faked. Then I fill out the special form and you write your story on "why" there is no current registration, and/or why there is no title, if it came from a titled state. They look it over, then run the VIN, and issue plates. Most States honor a non-titled car IF it came from a non-title State, BUT having current registration in the sellers name is mandatory, and the Reg paper must be the original, and not a copy. Yes, Don't panic. Take time to do this the correct way without lying. The Vermont thing, and out of State "sell to brother" is legal. It would not be legal if the car was stolen, or if you are not sure if the seller really owned it, or if VIN plates are switched or whatever. Just me, but I would never buy a old Ebay registration paper or title, that went to another car. That IS illegal . Not illegal to buy a title or registration paper but it is illegal to use it to register a car fraudulently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, alsancle said: Does Broadway in Alabama still do business? Can we trust some info posted on the net from car guys? Somewhere in the last couple of years, I read more than one person say that "some select few" States are roadblocking any Alabama title fixes. as well as "looking out for" New York State "very ancient registration cards". I have no idea if this is true in all cases. Both of these tactics were used for a long time, The older NY cards had a blank ! "I hereby sell this car to.....;" on the back. That seemed risky to me, as the car owner back then, received a new one each year, it was said. So, you could have several people trying to use the same VIN identification on several yearly cards at the same time, if someone found a stack of these in Grandpaw's files, and sold them one at a time online. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superior1980 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Broadway is still in business as I looked into them as a possible solution to my title issue, but I decided not to go with them. Their own website has the disclaimer that they are no longer able to do titles for Alaska, Alabama, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, North Carolina, and Wisconsin. Implies to me that some states think there's something fishy, and I also noticed that their website now lists them as having a Maine address. In any case, their fee was in the neighborhood of $1000, which I thought was just obscene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 If you want to drop me a line- I will help you and it wont cost much at all.................... rdz69@aol.com Im in NJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 When you buy a car the title and vin number are the most important thing. Period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 There are a couple of guys on this site that sell titles ( historical documents) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobg1951chevy Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Mammy said: Hello, My son bought a '65 Chevy from a guy in PA with the "promise" of a title, but it's been a year and no title has been produced. Meantime, the car is in my garage in NJ and my son has been working on it. (We live on the Jersey side of Delaware Water Gap, my son lives on the Pennsylvania side.) The guy he bought the car from has practically fallen off the face of the earth. I would like the car out of my garage and my son would like to put the car on the road. But how and where/which state to get a title has been the dilemma. Is anyone here familiar with the procedures one would have to go through to get a title in either PA or NJ? (We could go with whichever state is easier.) Thank you very much in advance for your feedback. Regards, M.A.M. You have not said how old your son is, you have not said why you did not assist your son, when he was making the purchase. Bottom line is this ..... at the time of purchase, the first thing that should have been done was to compare the VIN on the title, to the VIN on the car. If the numbers don't match (title to vehicle), you walk away from the deal. If there is no title, you walk away from the deal. Some of the replies here have "some" merit, but you better clearly understand that screwing around with titles is a felony offense. Your son has not only paid for a car he cannot prove to be his own, he's also invested bucks into the car, after the purchase, as you observed. If you run the VIN, through your cop buddy ....... and the car turns out to be stolen, your legal complications and fees have just begun. There's much more on the table here, than getting your parking place back. Edited January 17, 2017 by bobg1951chevy (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackofalltrades70 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Heads up. If you go through Vermont, and then try to title in PA, they will check and see if that VIN has ever been registered in PA. They will not issue another title. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 This may seem odd to some of you but I would suggest you simply go to your New Jersey DMV and tell them the truth about what happened. They would be the best people to tell you what you can legally do to resolve the issue. Honesty really is the best policy. When you attempt to figure out a way to work around the law, it usually does not work out well. Worst case scenario, you may find that the person who sold the car did not legally own it and he might lose the car, or your son might have to report to the police that he was the victim of fraud. Either of those are better than getting arrested for possession of a stolen vehicle (which is a very remote possibility). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, MCHinson said: This may seem odd to some of you but I would suggest you simply go to your New Jersey DMV and tell them the truth about what happened. Yes, Odd.. I'm not being sarcastic, but that sounds like a Shirley Temple movie plot.... In her voice: " Sirs, Mr. Inspector man, I know you require a Bill of Sale and a Title, but I don't have either...what shall I do? " What's the point of going there in person, wait an hour+, and be so unprepared? At that point, standing there, you have nothing to show for ownership at all. They cannot divulge any info to an unrelated person, (which is the person with no proof of ownership). State Statutes are printed and available to the public online and at libraries, so that the public can be prepared, or at least know what the mandatory items are. Any official or law enforcement person will tell you that "ignorance of any State Statute or Law, is not a defense, nor an excuse" . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Each state has different statutes and different policies. As a retired Police Lieutenant, I will simply say that walking up to a human being and saying, I did something stupid, is there any way to fix this, usually works better than any other approach. If you have a bill of sale and you know the serial number of the vehicle, you can probably at least find out if it has been reported as stolen. You can probably also find out if there is a way to obtain a title through some of more unusual but legal ways to do so. Some states require you to post a bond to get a title. Some require an application to the courts. I have no idea what NJ law allows, but I know that the DMV personnel there are the best source of information about what will work in that jurisdiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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