General Discussion too general ?

[padgett]

I saw the same thing happen in the Pontiac club. As more "modern" cars started to predominate (e.g. GTOs and Firebirds) the "Silver Streak" crowd got bothered. and apparently mention of computer cars (now over a decade into the clubs definition of "antique") bothers others. Thought "general discussion" meant that but seems to be wrong.

 

Personally am fascinated by all forms of motor transportation from a "how they work" standpoint though my personal knowledge focuses on cars I've had and the fact that my documentation is deep in those areas. Also is interesting to find that many of the cars new when I was growing up are now antiques (well so am I).

 

My interests/knowlege are mainly post-wwII.  First became involved here with the Reatta group, all of which are computer cars though from an engineering standpoint (am a GMI grad, have lots more credentials which do not really matter) to some extent they all blur together (have had fuel injection cars since 1970). The fact is the basic combustion process is the same since Sir Harry first described it in "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" and is still evolving (next big thing IMNSHO is direct injection with boost). From that standpoint there is little difference between a '59 Jag DOHC 6 and a '93 Pontiac Twin Dual Cam 6 other than one is chain (good) vs belt (not so but at least it is a non-interference engine) drive.

 

Every car I've had responds well to running about 10% cooler than stock form a cooler passenger compartment to things under the hood lasting decades rather than years.

 

Also if I am going to use a car as a "get in and head to the left coast" (have, several times) then they are going to have modern tires and suspension, I prefer AGM batteries, and all cars have hands free phone capability (and all can have original equipment bolted back on in about an hour if there was any reason). For me family safety on the road is more important than originality. (Am really bothered by TV shows where the lead jumps in a car that has been sitting for years and just pumps up the tires and goes. I have had tires separate at speed and it is not a fun experience. 

 

Now since tours are an important part of "Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types." I thought that the ability to drive a car as it was intended was a good part of the charter. Yet I have run into cases particularly relating to tires where original size and construction is felt to be more important than safety. Brakes are another. Originality is fine on a show field but am chided for saying it has no place on an Interstate.

 

So guess that my original question is whether "general" really means ""open" or are there limitations that are unstated ? I always thought the AACA was more interested in enjoyment  Now if exactly as delivered is more important than "safe" then OK but be aware that "exactly" means proper date codes and option mixes for the day and place of manufacture.

Or does "general" have a more specific meaning ? e.g. For Rochester and most Carter carbs I have documentation of what jets were stock or did you know that the shift knob on a four speed Judge was different in 69 than 70-71 (saw the wrong one on a popular reality show about restoration).

 

My personal feeling is that where knowledge of how a car was supposed to be built (and really need an assembly manual for that, shop and parts manuals often have supersessions), keeping them roadworthy is not quite the same thing. Which is more important in "General Discussion" ? or do we need another discussion group ? Perhaps  General Discussion: DPC ? YWTK.

Edited May 22, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[RansomEli]

I'm fine with the current status of the General Discussion forum. It's like walking into a coffee shop or friendly bar. You never know what's being discussed but, whatever it is, it's interesting.

 

A good part of the general forum does belong in Technical forum, but I like the General hodgepodge

[MCHinson]

I think where people tend to get upset is when a topic goes completely off of the original subject. The topic that I think resulted in this post, went way off of the original topic. It went so far off of the original topic that I think the original poster gave up. I have not seen him reply in quite a while. If you want to discuss your particular cars, start a new discussion. If someone else wants to post photos of their car out of context of the original question, they too should start a new topic. When a new guy is asking questions it is not too helpful to go off on a tangent that starts multiple unrelated discussions that have nothing to do with the original question in that discussion thread.

[Frantz]

I'm definitely a forum junkie for all my hobbies. I think AACA is a good balance, though I think if any area is too broad it is indeed general discussion, still I can't think of an immediate improvement option. I'd much rather see it all lumped than microseperated though. One forum I used to be very active on is about a single model of car and has far far far too many topic categories. Interest is quickly lost by having to check everything. One work around I have seen on a  local reef aquarium forum that needs separation, but doesn't get too many post, is to have a "what's new" page, where all new post are shown without having to scroll the entire forum. Seems like a smart work around for that club, but again, it's low activity. 

[capngrog]

Other than the O.P.'s title of this thread, "General Discussion Too General?", I fail to grasp his point in his post.  If the point was the question posed by his title of this thread, then I would disagree.  I don't think that the "General Discussion" thread is too general.  As I recall, a couple of my "General Discussion" threads have been re-directed by moderators because they were too specific.  There can be many subject-specific threads/discussions in this forum, but I'm guessin' that there can be only one "General Discussion" forum.

 

As to a discussion/thread straying too far from the original thread topic, I believe it is the duty of the Original Poster to keep his/her thread on track.  This can be done in a friendly, positive manner, by the way.

 

Just my opinion,

Grog

[padgett]

Agree and know I tend to ramble a bit, it is just the way I think, often just wander in junkyards looking for ideas rather than years. Have noted in my profile that unless otherwise noted my opinions relate to DPC cars. In fact the only car I have that might not be DPC is the GTP (36F) and it will not be eligible until next year unless retuning to run at 183-186F disqualifies it.

 

Part of my problem is that I spent five years working for GM (Delco Remy) and spent my free time in the dusty archives going back to the 20s. A lot of my opinions were formulated there and a lot of what is gospel about the 60s and 70s particularly "just ain't so".

 

A couple of times have written reality shows about errors but is clear they are not interested. Stopped judging when it became clear that many owners just wanted a "value add" and not to really be told what was correct (besides I'd have to dig out dusty archives to prove that a RA IV engine had two manifold heat risers while a RA (never was a RA III) just had one on the driver's side).

 

So will try to restrain the rambling and open more new topics where people seem interested. Still spent much of my life designing digital aircraft flight and engine controls (and got into trouble a few times for promoting the idea that there is something wrong about a fighter or attack aircraft with a governor (to meet MTBF) - sorry rambling again - so prefer to be exact about things like a repopped oil filter with the label on upside down).

[Bhigdog]

Personally I find it often more interesting when a thread generates thoughts, ideas, and comments that stray from the original post. They are often more informative than the  original post. Strict regulation ='s conformity ='s stagnation ='s boredom ='s loss of participation. Vive la difference................Bob

[Grimy]

To paraphrase Colonel Kilgore (think about that name in the context of the movie), some of us "love the smell of controversy in the morning"...until it descends into personal sniping. 

 

Responding to an earlier reply, I disagree that is the responsibility of the *OP* to keep his/her thread on track; that should be the province of the moderators, whom I praise for allowing a great amount of latitude before they step in.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

"General Discussion too general ?" "

no

[Guest]

What about someone who ask a technical question in the General section. Seems to be a lot of that. Isn't that what the technical section is for?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, padgett said:

Agree and know I tend to ramble a bit, it is just the way I think, often just wander in junkyards looking for ideas rather than years. Have noted in my profile that unless otherwise noted my opinions relate to DPC cars. In fact the only car I have that might not be DPC is the GTP (36F) and it will not be eligible until next year unless retuning to run at 183-186F disqualifies it.

 

 

Wonder if you could use a Jay lubricator on a DPC car?

[nick8086]

What is a ford shoebox??    I Just got educated about a year ago..

[Bhigdog]

10 hours ago, helfen said:

What about someone who ask a technical question in the General section. Seems to be a lot of that. Isn't that what the technical section is for?

 

What if it's a technically general question about a generally technical subject?.....................Bob

[capngrog]

18 hours ago, Grimy said:

 

 

Responding to an earlier reply, I disagree that is the responsibility of the *OP* to keep his/her thread on track; that should be the province of the moderators, whom I praise for allowing a great amount of latitude before they step in.

 

Who, but the O.P. (Original Poster) has more interest in the direction in which his/her thread is taken?  Who but the O.P. knows what the thread was intended to accomplish/answer?

 

As Grimy said, the moderators allow a great deal of leeway when it comes to censoring or re-directing a thread, and I too, find that to be praiseworthy.

 

Just my O.P.inion,

Grog

[poci1957]

I like the General Discussion as is, I seem to be here 90% of the time I am in the site.  We do often ramble off topic but that is OK with me except we probably should spin a change of subject into it's own thread more often just so other can see it and join in. 

 

I do not mind if someone asks about a more modern car and in fact have contributed if I have something relevant to add.  I more dislike street rod inquiries but they usually die of lack of interest anyway and sometimes we can direct them to a more appropriate venue.  My favorite thing about our forums is our participants are very good about keeping it clean and helpful, I rarely see harsh words and as this is recreational for me I appreciate that very much, Todd C       

[padgett]

Not really a F*rd person though blew second gear out of a '61 Thunderbird a few times but thought a "shoebox" was a 49-54, first series with slab sides and not pontoon fenders. Pontoons had pretty much died out by 1960 except for 444 Volvos.

 

Looked at technical but that seems to be for the real fanatics & I'm more of a squirrel.

 

Suspect a Jay Lubricator would be period correct. Is that the intent of DPC ? Any car with a rad mounted thermometer is DPC ?

 

ps all my cars are equipped for hands free phone. Two (88 and 93) have factory cassette players, 70 has an 8 track with a period correct cassette adapter. Each has one of these ( need the one with a microphone) and this (both easily removable). I also use heads up displays & use cell phone for GPS and Music.

 

pps Maybe we need a DPC (Driver: Politically Correct) thread for all of us oddballs to discuss period or road safety related items. 

 

 

[R W Burgess]

19 minutes ago, padgett said:

 

pps Maybe we need a DPC (Driver: Politically Correct) thread for all of us oddballs to discuss period or road safety related items. 

 

 

 

You're not an oddball Paggett! Just a little different!  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Not really a F*rd person though blew second gear out of a '61 Thunderbird a few times but thought a "shoebox" was a 49-54, first series with slab sides and not pontoon fenders. Pontoons had pretty much died out by 1960 except for 444 Volvos.

 

Looked at technical but that seems to be for the real fanatics & I'm more of a squirrel.

 

Suspect a Jay Lubricator would be period correct. Is that the intent of DPC ? Any car with a rad mounted thermometer is DPC ?

 

ps all my cars are equipped for hands free phone. Two (88 and 93) have factory cassette players, 70 has an 8 track with a period correct cassette adapter. Each has one of these ( need the one with a microphone) and this (both easily removable). I also use heads up displays & use cell phone for GPS and Music.

 

pps Maybe we need a DPC (Driver: Politically Correct) thread for all of us oddballs to discuss period or road safety related items. 

 

 

Mr P, Fords were slab sided from 1949-1951 new bodies, from 1952-1954, also new bodies, Ford added rear pontoons and then took them away again in 1955.

Edited May 23, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, capngrog said:

 

Who, but the O.P. (Original Poster) has more interest in the direction in which his/her thread is taken?  Who but the O.P. knows what the thread was intended to accomplish/answer?

 

As Grimy said, the moderators allow a great deal of leeway when it comes to censoring or re-directing a thread, and I too, find that to be praiseworthy.

 

Just my O.P.inion,

Grog

Well, we are all safe as far as topic goes on this thread because Mr.P. started the thread.

[Amphicar BUYER]

I see the "General discussion" more as the way an actual conversation works in real life. It waxes and wanes. One comment begets another topic.It's the natural flow of conversation that fuels it. If you want to stay withing the narrow confines of a single topic, this is not the place. Maybe tech or ? is best. Again, I for one enjoy the natural flow that this goes. I find it more irritating when someone decides that they have to chime in and feel that because all upset it isn't going as THEY want and just complain rather than moving on. Too bad, they should just remain silent and move on or just comment within the parameters they want to set for the rest of us.

 

I look here 1st as I suspect most do. The other topics can be too directed for my tastes but that is also they way some should be. General should remain general or it becomes too difficult to find anything of interest by accident. Tis best to let the general discussion, remain just that... general. Sans insults and petty complaints, let it flow naturally. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Amphicar BUYER said:

I see the "General discussion" more as the way an actual conversation works in real life. It waxes and wanes. One comment begets another topic.It's the natural flow of conversation that fuels it. If you want to stay withing the narrow confines of a single topic, this is not the place. Maybe tech or ? is best. Again, I for one enjoy the natural flow that this goes. I find it more irritating when someone decides that they have to chime in and feel that because all upset it isn't going as THEY want and just complain rather than moving on. Too bad, they should just remain silent and move on or just comment within the parameters they want to set for the rest of us.

 

I look here 1st as I suspect most do. The other topics can be too directed for my tastes but that is also they way some should be. General should remain general or it becomes too difficult to find anything of interest by accident. Tis best to let the general discussion, remain just that... general. Sans insults and petty complaints, let it flow naturally. 

" One comment begets another topic.It's the natural flow of conversation that fuels it. If you want to stay withing the narrow confines of a single topic, this is not the place "

Certainly, for example in simple passing unrelated to the topic someone says "all 1961-1964 full size Pontiac's come with Roto HydraMatic", when in actuality The large wheelbase ( Bonneville and StarChief) cars got Super Hydramatic. Only Ventura, Catalina and Grand Prix got Roto HydraMatic. I think it's important to get the facts straight because someone not familiar gets misinformation. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[theastronaut]

Would a "General Store" be a general store if it only sold a few types of items?  If I'm out shopping and need a bunch of different items I'd go to a "general store" like a Walmart with a wide variety of items on the shelves.  Of course, I wouldn't think it silly that they sold a little bit of everything in the same store.  Nor would I expect all of the items to be extremly high quality.  If I want say, a high quality road bike, I'd head over to the local bicycle shop instead.  They have much higher quality bikes than Walmart and the employees are much more knowlegeable about what they're selling.   Forums and their different sections are usually the same way.  

[padgett]

In general I try to say how certain I am about something (and appreciate the F*rd correction). The interesting thing about the Internet (what is the "Interweb" ? Keep hearing that on TV) is that if you ask a question, it will languish and wither but if you suggest an answer the sharks will jump out of the woodwork to correct you.

 

Still think we need a section for DPCs to avoid offending some with thoughts from the last century. Vas dere, back in the bad old days and 195F thermostats date back to the daze of 12/12 warrenties and were maintained during the emissions era because was easy to guarantee the emissions for 5/50 if the engine always ran in the same too hot area. The corporate mentality has always been "if it works, don't fix it" & lock into one operating regime. Guess I always tend to think outside the box (what box ?) and found if you run an engine at 180-190F instead of 195-205F, *everything* under the hood lasts longer and the engine runs better. Around 1975 when catalytic converters first came in there was a race from startup to about 600F at the CC when the catalyst would light off. The name of the game was get hot fast. Problem was high combustion temperatures led to high NOx which resulted in near universal use of EGR so we got a kludge to fix a side effect of another kludge.

 

I often heard the reason given was for fast heat. You start getting heat at a coolant temp about 100F and 180F will roast you out at zero. Another factor was cost, hotter engines needed smaller radiators (why I always looked for Vegas with AC - they got real radiators). Some MFRs also fought radials for cost reasons (why we got bias-belteds for a while). BFG was the first in the US to really step up to the radial market previously dominated by Europeans and people discovered tires that could stop near as well in the rain as the dry (it rains a lot in Florida). AFAIR the Continental Mk III was the first car to have radials big enough for American iron (before 1970 except for truck tires European sizes were much smaller).

 

My era is pretty much 1959-up (was there then) and IMNSHO a lot of the decisions and designs were for cost and to meet regulations of the time (anyone remember the 1974 seat belt interlock ? Passive restraints ? TCS switches - great for fixing a leaking cranking signal valve on a Rochester FI)

 

Bottom line there is a lot of original equipment I would not trust my family to on a 2016 Interstate (remember when 55 was the law of the land, are just lucky that the governors in cars are for the tire rating and not the NSL).

 

And the more I think about it, a DPC section make as much sense as some of the individual makes and models that have their own following (I really came here from the Reatta forum and every one ever made was a computer car & all during the 55 mph speed limit). All of the above is part of the rationale. I can understand people valuing cars "exactly as made" but once you understand why they were made that way & much was never what the designers intended (keep a Vega under 200F or a 84 Fiero full of oil and they will run forever) it looks a little different. Similarly when they become collectible some will probably value cars with the original Takata airbag (surprised Firestone 500s aren't repopped or are they ?)

 

So there you have it and all of that ramble was circling in on the concept of a section in the forum just for DPCs. Suspect there are a lot more of them than points judged show cars (and maybe some will become show cars).

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

At the risk of adding more confusion an already confusing discussion...

 

I don't understand your new fixation on DPC and the thought that it requires a separate forum. Any internal change you make to an engine to make it run cooler can be done to any vehicle in any class, that internal change would not require a vehicle to be displayed in DPC.

 

You can also discuss any DPC related issue in any forum. For example, you can talk about a DPC Reatta in the Reatta Forum. You can talk about an issue with a DPC car in the Technical forum, or the General Forum, or in a Forum related to that particular make or model.

[padgett]

Yes but certain people seem disturbed when I suggest that the factory cars of the day would/should not be allowed on some roads today.

 

Am primarily an enthusiast and not a collector & have been known to drive my cars at speed on ovals and road courses. Or visit south Florida which involves running at 70 for a couple of hours straight. On available pump gas. Through frog stranglers (sometimes more than one) and with the AC going, music playing, more instruments than stock displaying, and GPS guidance I also believe in brass vs steel expansion plugs. Didn't start recently, have been expecting a lot from my cars since my Judge was new (and before that, there was this Devin Jag I had...). Also had a habit of occasionally crossing the finish line of an autocross going backwards (to go really fast you need a car that can oversteer at will and the ultimate oversteer is....)

 

My feeling is that DPC is different and may become far more popular than it is today. Just like to be ahead of the curve. And to avoid offending purists with what I was doing/observing over half a century ago that may not fit the accepted history (69 Judge had a different four speed shift knob than a 70-71. Have both.)

[1937hd45]

The Post 1946 car people rule the show now, the pre 1942 people just remember how much fun the hobby once was. Bob

[padgett]

And does your 45 have a suicide clutch ? Never said I don't like prewar cars, are some interesting ones like a Coffin Nosed Cord or a Jag SS-100 before the SS became PI (but think a Squire is better looking). And then there was the super sport short and light from DE (remember being in Frankfurt in the mid-60s and seeing a VW with Continental tires that said "made in Germany" on the sidewall...). Problem with writing an autobiography is that no one would believe it and half would be classified.

[John348]

Mr P,

 

"Are General Discussions too General?" Interesting question, I don't think so. If someone has a topic they want to write about, or have a question on specific topic they can post it under a thread with that title, those interested in or have the specific needed knowledge can participate.  

 

However I do find it very disrespectful to the O.P. and distracting to those who participated in the dialog when someone just interjects with a post that has nothing to do with the topic. I know I'm not the only one who finds that confusing and even rude when it occurs. Just imagine you are having a verbal conversation in a parking lot with a group of people about the different shifter ball's on GTO's, and while you are just about to tell everyone about your different 69 shifter ball, and some people that were listening started asking few questions. I am on the other side of the parking lot and just blurt out something about how I don't  like the new Cadillac I bought my wife, I ask them what do they think I should do, and asking what car they think I should buy?  Now 5 of the 7 people talking to you are talking to me, and the two that are left just walk away and your now standing there by yourself holding a 69 GTO shifter ball in hand and a 70 GTO shifter ball in the other.

General Discussion is just like that parking lot, except we put a signs up (Topic) telling people what we are looking to talk about    

 

Just because a thread is in General Discussion does not mean that they should put up a random unrelated post in any thread, because that person decided to generally discuss anything they felt like. That person should start a new thread, those interested will participate if they want

 

[Restorer32]

It's a sad state of affairs when we start discussing how we should be discussing rather than just discussing.

[60FlatTop]

I like to relate the Forum to the group of guys whom get together on Saturday mornings. Some have set at the table and gone off topic so much as to talk about their kids or their dog! A couple weeks ago I was telling stories about repairing the refrigeration for the cooler in the morgue that would curl your poached eggs.

 

Maybe there should be an Exclusive section to the Forum. Now, what is the root word of exclusive?

Bernie

[padgett]

Not balls.

[Amphicar BUYER]

4 minutes ago, padgett said:

Not balls.

 

HUH?

[padgett]

Quote: "...different shifter ball'...". Rest was not worth bothering with.

 

BTW remember one POCI meet, think in Dayton, we arrived at the host hotel at about 8pm. By 10 pm we had made it about 200 yards into the parking lot and at midnight were back in front of the hotel just talking to people who walked up about  how to spot obscure differences (like a 66 fender on a '67) and looking at the cars. Personally never saw a car I didn't like but like some more than others.

 

Thought a general discussion was like that but have suggested a DPC forum.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, padgett said:

Quote: "...different shifter ball'...". Rest was not worth bothering with.

 

BTW remember one POCI meet, think in Dayton, we arrived at the host hotel at about 8pm. By 10 pm we had made it about 200 yards into the parking lot and at midnight were back in front of the hotel just talking to people who walked up about  how to spot obscure differences (like a 66 fender on a '67) and looking at the cars. Personally never saw a car I didn't like but like some more than others.

 

Thought a general discussion was like that but have suggested a DPC forum.

HUH ? X2

[padgett]

OK. Long form:  The 69-71 Pontiac GTO Judge four speed came with a Hurst T-handle and not a ball. The original 69 was subtly different from the 70-71 & SR p/n 9794532. One recent TV show showed a closeup of the later one on a newly (and expect ex$pen$ively) restored 69.  This is just one easy example I use about the difficulty of points judging if you want to be really accurate and if not, why bother ?

[John348]

Mr P,

Although I am not surprised, you have successfully hijacked your own thread and taken it off it's original topic. So in order to try to get your topic back on track, Could you please explain to us what do you specifically mean by a DPC Forum?

Thanks, I am looking forward to reading your answer

Edited May 24, 2016 by John348
spelling (see edit history)

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, padgett said:

OK. Long form:  The 69-71 Pontiac GTO Judge four speed came with a Hurst T-handle and not a ball. The original 69 was subtly different from the 70-71 & SR p/n 9794532. One recent TV show showed a closeup of the later one on a newly (and expect ex$pen$ively) restored 69.  This is just one easy example I use about the difficulty of points judging if you want to be really accurate and if not, why bother ?

The long form is fine and self explanatory. The short form is confusing and adds more going back and forth to know what the heck you are talking about. Some people wouldn't bother and might think the poster is off the latch. 

[padgett]

And remember my mention that if you ask a question nothing will happen but if you propose a solution the sharks will come out of the woodwork to say why you were wrong ? Even more so if you just give the answer without the background (rambling).

 

Have been to the peak of points judging and didn't like the view. Besides few seemed interested in the cars themselves and many were just looking for a way to increase the value. Some became incensed when I pointed out errors. Moreso when documented. So when it stopped being something enjoyable I stopped judging.

 

Personally have been playing with the Internet since before it was the Internet (anyone remember the Darpa/Arpanet ?) and sometime run social experiments when the conditions seem right just to see the reactions. Kibitzing is fun but try to avoid kvetching - leave that to others..

 

 

 

 

[John348]

Mr P,

I will try one more time,

 

Could you please explain to us what do you specifically mean by a DPC Forum?

[padgett]

Sure: a forum more interested in safe driving, tours, personal preference, and enjoyment than originality even to the factory defects.

E.g. How to make a car more enjoyable while making minimal changes, preserving what was original, documenting changes, and retaining an ability to return to the original parts