AWD vs. 4WD

[Guest billybird]

O.K. guys. My intent here is not to start a heated debate. Just get some opinions. I understand how both systems work so I don't need an explanation. I'd just like to know what you prefer for driving in snow/ice. AWD or 4WD?

[Bob Hill]

I have a Grand Cherokee Overland with AWD and love it. I prefer AWD because I don't have to worry about switching into 4WD and switching out. Just more convenient IMHO. Also, I think AWD does great in the rain.

Bob

[Bleach]

I own both types and hands down my preference has been always 4X4. You can switch to 4 Lo if the snow gets too deep. Neither is any good on ice unless you have studded tires.

[Bob Hill]

Not sure what type of AWD you had but I can switch into 4LO with my AWD Jeep if needed with the simple flip of a switch on the console

Bob

[Dave@Moon]

Honestly, having driven both extensively, I don't prefer either. Give me a good 2WD car with good tires (and if rear wheel drive a limited slip dif) and I'm happy.

AWD & 4WD help prevent being stuck, make it easier to get underway in slippery conditions, and allow you to be a little more ham-fisted a driver while underway before one or the other sets of wheels break loose (but only at slow speeds). The added weight of the systems add to braking distances, the added weight is mainly unsprung increasing vertical and lateral momentums once the wheels are broken loose, and the systems themselves result in a higher vehicle with a higher center of gravity increasing instability. In addition the supposed safety of AWD & 4WD imbues the driver with a false sense of security that is more dangerous than almost anything. Statistically these factors are born out in winter driving statistics for 4WD & AWD vehicles, which despite their "advantages" show no reduction in accident or injury rate in winter driving.

In addition allof these factors result in increased fuel consumption relative to 2WD equivalents year-round, which is not an insignificant consideration.

A good set of tires, and well set up traction control system, and an understanding driver are far more important factors in winter driving safety than any one drive system.

http://www.vnutz.com/articles/4WD_Vs_AWD_And_The_Fallacy_Of_Snow_Traction

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/2003/12/the_physics_of_.html

[Dave@Moon]

I have a Grand Cherokee Overland with AWD and love it. I prefer AWD because I don't have to worry about switching into 4WD and switching out. Just more convenient IMHO. Also, I think AWD does great in the rain.

Bob

The first time I ever saw one of the then new 3rd generation of the Grand Cherokee (2005-2010) was on I-71 in Ohio. There had been 4 inches of snow and the plows were still out. The left lane was still partially snow covered but the right lane was quite clear. The Jeep in the median, on it's roof.

I saw six other wrecked cars between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati that day. Every one of them were AWD SUVs

[nick8086]

4WD

Edited February 14, 2014 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Guest my3buicks]

I have had both, mostly AWD though, I prefer the AWD for almost every aspect of driving - I really enjoyed pulling the 4X4 Ford out of the ditch with my Subaru Outback. I also run studded winter treads on whatever I drive. I drive late at night or in the wee hours of the morning for work, so I need something that will go when the roads haven't been touched yet. Attached is a fun picture of my last Outback after I plowed the driveway with it a few years ago.

Edited February 13, 2014 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[AdW13]

I have driven a 4x4 chevy duramax dually for years...love the push button 4x4...hands down my fav. And the allison tranny tow feature allows you to use it as a compression brake so you dont have to use brakes as much. Around here 4x4 or AWD is a must. In Awd (and also when truck is in 4x4) you feel the front end more in the ride and the steering. And you cant disengage it in the awd...our awd is a v8 vw phaeton and it is great so far...but it coasts good so not as good in snow IMO.

Angie

[R W Burgess]

................. Attached is a fun picture of my last Outback after I plowed the driveway with it a few years ago.

Impressive, if your vehicle did that by itself?

[Mark Shaw]

Dave Moon:

(Quote) "In addition the supposed safety of AWD & 4WD imbues the driver with a false sense of security that is more dangerous than almost anything. Statistically these factors are born out in winter driving statistics for 4WD & AWD vehicles, which despite their "advantages" show no reduction in accident or injury rate in winter driving."

Careful with using such statistics...

I have both and use my 2007 GMC YUKON when road conditions warrant 4WD; so we do not drive our 2WD vehicle in such conditions. It stands to reason that more 4WD vehicles will be on the road when such conditions exist and will be involved in more accidents due to increased numbers of such vehicles on the road.

I use the automatic 4WD in slushy conditions to reduce wear and tear on the 4WD system. I only switch to 4WD Hi on snow packed roads or when pulling a boat up a wet boat ramp. I use 4WD Lo for pulling stumps and for off road use or in deep snow. I think the flexibility of later model 4WD systems make them equivalent to AWD. The choice may depend on an individual's needs. My YUKON is also my tow vehicle, but if I didn't need a full size vehicle, I would consider an AWD car to handle the various road conditions here in the Northwest.

[Bob Hill]

The first time I ever saw one of the then new 3rd generation of the Grand Cherokee (2005-2010) was on I-71 in Ohio. There had been 4 inches of snow and the plows were still out. The left lane was still partially snow covered but the right lane was quite clear. The Jeep in the median, on it's roof.

I saw six other wrecked cars between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati that day. Every one of them were AWD SUVs

AWD doesn't make you a good driver but can give you false security. To say the only reason these wrecked was because of AWD is a little lame. I have AWD and have driven it in snow, ice and rain and have never had it turn over

Bob

[Guest billybird]

All great replies. I think the false sense of security idea is big. I have owned a 4WD of some description since 1979. Now we have an AWD as well { Ford Edge } which performs well in inclement weather. I've seen people fly around in 4WD thinking they are invincible. I've driven both and prefer 4WD probably because I'm old school and have had one so long. Still; I believe the key is respect for the conditions. People who are afraid probably should not drive in snow in anything. There IS a difference in between respect and fear.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Here in semi-rural CT where we are is somewhat hilly. I love AWD and won't have a car without it. I liked the feel of my Audi Quattro best having had a few different models. It felt glued to the road and as long as one understands the reasonable limits of the machine, it inspires "good confidence" IMO. I have an MB 4matic now, still good, and in fairness a bit bigger ride, but the Audi was superb in virtually all conditions. Not surprising as they have been at it a while...

Mrs. Mack, on the other hand tells me she is going back to an Explorer (good AWD/FWD system - we had two in the past) next cycle, she has a crossover type AWD now, but I think it is more a size preference in her case...

Edited February 13, 2014 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I think that those who get a false sense of security are those who are not very good drivers in the first place. And I think Mark Shaw makes an excellent point in regard to the statistics.

I put my wife in a Mercury Mountaineer AWD V-8 and she loves it. I've pulled cars out of snow banks with it, and pulled a 2wd Jeep through mud. I also have an AWD Subaru that my son decided he wanted instead of the Jeep (see previous sentence, and see 30-second video link below).

[dan at larescorp]

In MN 4WD or AWD are the way to go during the winter months. I would like to know where the statistics are coming from. I think West and Mark are correct about it just being people who don't know how to drive. I know 4WD has saved me before.

[Guest my3buicks]

Impressive, if your vehicle did that by itself?

My son couldn't come over to plow the drive as he had business customers to take care of first - I couldn't wait and had to give it a shot. As you can see, it worked.

[Matt Harwood]

I KNOW that AWD/4WD only helps you accelerate, and braking and handling are the same as a 2WD car, but I have to admit that my Audi allroad was perhaps the finest winter warrior ever conceived by the mind of man. With snow tires, it was completely unstoppable in any weather conditions and remains undefeated in our parking lot play times after a heavy snow fall. I just picked up a new Cadillac CTS wagon with AWD and while I haven't had any problems moving through the heavy snow this year, it ain't the Audi, either. The Audi always felt like it was searching for more traction, whereas the Cadillac feels like it's only reacting after the fact. "Oh, some slipping happening back there? Better see if the front tires would like to help out." It always feels a half-step behind and I know I've been in situations where the Audi would have been unshakable but the Cadillac was a little hairy. On the other hand, knowing how to use AWD properly can make it a huge advantage. Just the other day I was going down a spiraling snow-covered off-ramp and started to understeer as I braked. Feeding in some power allowed the front wheels to pull the car back in line, something that wouldn't have been possible with 2WD, and it probably saved me from at least having to call a tow truck, if not a trip to the bodyshop.

Now more to the question, I think AWD is probably superior in normal driving situations for regular drivers. 4WD (implying no center differential) means that it's good for low-traction surfaces only, as tire slip is providing the relief to the driveline when the front and rear tires are spinning at different speeds. While I can't argue with decades of off-roaders and Jeepers going into deep doo-doo with their 4WD systems, if you're driving in the winter, I think a smart system that apportions traction automatically and uses a center differential is going to be superior. I've gotten in jams with my Dodge 4x4 pickup simply because road conditions wouldn't allow me to use 4-wheel-drive (some dry areas, some icy areas) and by the time I need 4-wheel-drive, it's too late to activate it. So for routine driving, I think AWD is superior because it's always ready to spring into action. 4WD is probably better for all-out traction in slippery conditions, but with its limitations, I think the AWD system will be more effective more often.

What's the old expression? The only thing 4-wheel-drive lets you do is get farther off the road before you get stuck?

[AdW13]

The key is to slow down...even in 4x4 and a lot of idiots don't. Our truck and car will both go about anywhere we want to go. Many times we are passed by people in the snow....sometimes we slow down below the speed limit....we go by what we feel the safest speed for the conditions are.

We are new to the car market, having just got our VW Phaeton last month, but I would also thing there is a cost difference. Since the AWD is always engaged, you would likely get worse mileage. Also, the cost of maintenance. If it is always engaged there are more parts that are always working....so more chance for failure. We engage our 4x4 a few times in the summer....a mechanic friend told us that keeps it lubed. We don't use the 4x4 much in winter overall, either really. Only when the roads are slick. We put our truck in 4x4 on washboard roads, too. It makes a worlds of difference.

The ride is the biggie for me. In our Phaeton the air ride takes out a lot of the roughness....but I have been in subaru legacy's that you could really feel it in the ride....like when our truck is in 4x4. I'm spoiled on the push button 4x4...our last 3 trucks have all been it....such a great feature for the NW cuz some times roads are clear then all of a sudden snowy.

[AdW13]

I KNOW that AWD/4WD only helps you accelerate, and braking and handling are the same as a 2WD car, but I have to admit that my Audi allroad was perhaps the finest winter warrior ever conceived by the mind of man. With snow tires, it was completely unstoppable in any weather conditions and remains undefeated in our parking lot play times after a heavy snow fall. I just picked up a new Cadillac CTS wagon with AWD and while I haven't had any problems moving through the heavy snow this year, it ain't the Audi, either. The Audi always felt like it was searching for more traction, whereas the Cadillac feels like it's only reacting after the fact. "Oh, some slipping happening back there? Better see if the front tires would like to help out." It always feels a half-step behind and I know I've been in situations where the Audi would have been unshakable but the Cadillac was a little hairy. On the other hand, knowing how to use AWD properly can make it a huge advantage. Just the other day I was going down a spiraling snow-covered off-ramp and started to understeer as I braked. Feeding in some power allowed the front wheels to pull the car back in line, something that wouldn't have been possible with 2WD, and it probably saved me from at least having to call a tow truck, if not a trip to the bodyshop.

Now more to the question, I think AWD is probably superior in normal driving situations for regular drivers. 4WD (implying no center differential) means that it's good for low-traction surfaces only, as tire slip is providing the relief to the driveline when the front and rear tires are spinning at different speeds. While I can't argue with decades of off-roaders and Jeepers going into deep doo-doo with their 4WD systems, if you're driving in the winter, I think a smart system that apportions traction automatically and uses a center differential is going to be superior. I've gotten in jams with my Dodge 4x4 pickup simply because road conditions wouldn't allow me to use 4-wheel-drive (some dry areas, some icy areas) and by the time I need 4-wheel-drive, it's too late to activate it. So for routine driving, I think AWD is superior because it's always ready to spring into action. 4WD is probably better for all-out traction in slippery conditions, but with its limitations, I think the AWD system will be more effective more often.

What's the old expression? The only thing 4-wheel-drive lets you do is get farther off the road before you get stuck?

We just got a VW Phaeton...I know what you mean about the traction. It seems when we put studs on it next winter it will go anywhere...But you do feel the torque steer kinda feeling in it. And even with the air ride it feels rougher in the frontend to me. The caddy likely has much less technology in the traction control system than the audi does.

I think if I had to choose 4x4 where you had to actually shift it...like our old chevies, I would prefer AWD any day. ince 97 our trucks all have had the push button 4x4. It is an actuator on the dash and shifts into 4 high on the fly....up to 60mph. So it works great when you get to those slick spots. Also, the tranny tow option being a compression brake also helps a lot. You don't have to use the brakes coming to a stop or going down hills. Also, it has an option of allowing you to start out in second gear if you are losing traction in first....this isn't the case with a lot of automatic trannies.

I raced VW rabbits averaging 60MPH on a quarter mile banked oval I know all about hitting the gas to bring the frontend down, lol. The RWD cars had to slow down for corners....me I could mash the gas mid corner and be sucked to the bottom....loved it.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Matt you described exactly the difference between the Audi and the MB as well. I would only add that the AWD in the Quattro never felt like it impeded on dry weather handling and was not a bad thing for wet/slick roads either. It always seemed to be beckoning... :cool:

[caddyshack]

I have 4wd in my Tahoe and I would never use it on ice. Snow, mud, sand, it works great, but ice is never a good thing. The comments above are good and the false security created by dealers is just a selling mechanism to reel you in and buy. Your personal driving habits are probably the number one factor, no matter what type of situation you are in. After watching some of the drivers down South with a few inches of snow and ice, I can see how opinions are all over the place. I can't blame them, because they are not used to driving under those conditions. AWD is no better on ice. Remember studded tires? They were the best on ice, but chewed up the roads so fast that they were discontinued a few years later. Oh well, drive safe. Just my opinion.

[Guest my3buicks]

What do you mean "do you remember studded tires"? They are alive and well in PA - either that or those metal things in my tires are something else.

[dan at larescorp]

No studded tires in MN for a long time now.

[Bleach]

Not sure what type of AWD you had but I can switch into 4LO with my AWD Jeep if needed with the simple flip of a switch on the console

Bob

Yes our AWD 06 MDX has a low selection but it only works in either 1st or 2nd gears. It also has ABS which I despise in low speed icy conditions even with studded tires. It doesn't do much better than our 05 Civic with only FWD, no ABS and studded tires.

My 94 F150 4X4 is my vehicle of choice except if ice is part of the equation. It has no ABS, a manual 5 speed ZF transmission with a low 1st gear and a manually shifted transfer case. Except for ice, no amount of snow we have had here has kept me from driving it or getting where I needed to go.

Matt handling is not the same between 2wd and 4x4/AWD unless you don't consider steering control part of handling. I have noticed way better steering control with 4X4 over the same vehicle without the front diff engaged. The moment the front diff was engaged, I could steer better in snow. With the front diff disengaged it seemed to only want to go straight.

Dave, my RWD Crown Vic with good tires and locking diff only goes manages to go sideways in most slippery conditions so it stays parked when it snows here.

I actually got around quite well with the Civic last Thursday when the Portland OR area got dumped on with the last snow storm. I passed all kinds of cars / trucks that were stuck or in ditches. I saw one vehicle on it's roof on the opposite side of the freeway. It looked like it might have been a Jeep;) but it was too dark to tell.

[ken1007]

I have often wondered the issue and have decided (notwithstanding the technical differences) that the car advertisers might have decided that an AWD Cadillac sounds better to its customers than a 4WD Cadillac. Years ago Chrysler got a lot of miles out of Corinthian leather.

[zeke01]

I am a rural mail carrier by trade and have used both AWD (Subaru) and 4WD (Jeep). I'm not one to hotrod around in the bad weather. I prefer the AWD by a long stretch. It has a smoother operation that 4WD. Tight corners at slow speeds in 4WD is difficult. Not having to shift in and out is convenient and AWD traction is as good as 4WD. I put 260,000 miles on my Subaru and would still be driving it had tin worms not devoured it.

[West Peterson]

The Subaru in my video has 290,000 miles on it. They must run on Eveready batteries.

[Guest bkazmer]

A practical advantage in most conditions is that AWD is offered on cars (as opposed to trucks/trucklettes/SUV/CUV), but 4WD is not, so the generally better weight distribution and center of gravity can apply

[joe_padavano]

I saw six other wrecked cars between Pittsburgh and Cincinnati that day. Every one of them were AWD SUVs

Here's another case where I agree with Dave 100%. Every car I see today that's slid off the road in the snow is an SUV. Frankly, I'm sure part of this is just the fact that SUVs represent a much higher percentage of the vehicle population these days, but I'm also sure that the rest is due to the ignorance and overconfidence of the drivers. Just watch any Mercedes/Audi television ad in the winter.

Someone please explain to me how in Massachusetts in the 1960s, when everyone drove RWD cars with only snow tires, we had no problems getting around in the snow, but now when everyone drives AWD SUVs with hundreds of electronic systems with three letter acronyms, we issue a state of emergency BEFORE the first snowflake drops.

[Bleach]

Here's another case where I agree with Dave 100%. Every car I see today that's slid off the road in the snow is an SUV. Frankly, I'm sure part of this is just the fact that SUVs represent a much higher percentage of the vehicle population these days, but I'm also sure that the rest is due to the ignorance and overconfidence of the drivers. Just watch any Mercedes/Audi television ad in the winter.

Someone please explain to me how in Massachusetts in the 1960s, when everyone drove RWD cars with only snow tires, we had no problems getting around in the snow, but now when everyone drives AWD SUVs with hundreds of electronic systems with three letter acronyms, we issue a state of emergency BEFORE the first snowflake drops.

There were far less cars on the roads back then. Yes a lot of the problems with today's drivers is due to over confidence with ignorance thinking all these new gadgets will make them invincible.

[Guest my3buicks]

For one reason Joe, the average mileage that drivers drive now is far more than it was in the 60's, so more drivers are on the road more often than in the 60's

[Luv2Wrench]

Is this for a daily driver or occasional use? I prefer having a 4x4 for occasional use as most tend to have a more 'manual mode'. If you're really stuck or really need serious pulling power, you should be able to select 4x4 low. Some AWD vehicles let you set this as well and that would be a top option if you were shopping around.

Another factor to consider is ground clearance. Even if you are not off-road it is pretty easy to find situations with deep snow where having a little more clearance is really helpful. If you get stuck behind a group of cars and have to go off-road to get around them, that clearance really comes in handy.

I think tires are a really big factor as well. Obviously if you have studs you have a real advantage. I don't have studs on mine as we see very little snow here in the south. We've had some snow recently and I used my 4x4 truck most of the time. With the aggressive tread pattern and 400 lbs of play sand in the bed, I found that I really didn't need 4x4 mode much. The play sand in the bed is handy as I can dump some out if needed.

I've found that my daily driver does just fine in the snow. It has great traction control and a great tires. For me, however, the biggest consideration of all is what vehicle do I want to be in if other people might slide into me. In that case the truck wins every time. It is a work truck and it has enough dents and scratches that a ding or two from other cars isn't going to ruin my day.

[smithbrother]

It has been said many many times here, any 4-wheel drive system does NOTHING to help you STOP. All cars/trucks/SUV's in good operating condition HAVE 4 wheel brakes.

Here in Indiana, I see far to many drivers flying on snow and ice, thinking that because they were able to get going faster, that they can also STOP faster, not the case.

It boils down to educating these folks B4 they kill themselves and others, IMO.

Dale in Indy

[TexasJohn55]

Amen to that Dale. I bought my first 4WD Suburban in '86 and learned VERY QUICKLY that I could GO like crazy but could not STOP any better!

[karasmer]

4wd is the way to go and fwd with Blizzak tires the other option. Awd's have all the weight, mileage, and other.. disadvantages stated above plus the pain of consistently rotating the tires or else prepare for big expensive troubles, A lot of folks that own awd's run all season radials all year round and according to a Michelin tire study a standard fwd with snow tires just smokes the awd in all conditions. Also some awd's require some very very expensive differential fluid changes routinely.

[Dave@Moon]

AWD is no better on ice. Remember studded tires? They were the best on ice, but chewed up the roads so fast that they were discontinued a few years later.

Studded snows are alive and well in Ohio as well, especially on the back of my 2WD Ford Ranger. Without a limited slip differential that truck is worthless in the snow and ice, but with the studs it's better than my FWD daily driver Yaris and Prius. You just have to remember that you lose traction on dry pavement relative to non-studded tires (although not a huge amount, it is noticeable), and drive accordingly then as well.

I KNOW that AWD/4WD only helps you accelerate, and braking and handling are the same as a 2WD car...

If only that were true. Handling and braking are WORSE with AWD/4WD than in a comparable 2WD vehicle, and in ALL driving conditions...not just on snow/ice. The added weight (especially the unsprung drivetrain weight) and height impact both negatively, often to a high degree. This becomes a serious problem when drivers succumb to the urge to install a "lift kit" in their 4WD as if they're going rock-crawling, when we all can pretty much guess they're in the vast majority just compensating for something as they drive to Walgreens for more toothpaste.

As an illustration one need only look to the crucible of racing. AWD rules the roost in rally car driving where traction is often a serious issue, but in stock/track/touring/Indy/F1 car driving it has never really succeeded when tried.

[TexasJohn55]

Some idiots could stick a Sherman tank. Let's face it, one idiot can also shut down a 4 lane freeway for hours and no amount of technology can make anything idiot proof.

[Guest Oldengineer]

Over the years, I've driven quite an assortment on ice and snow - rear drives with studded snows and posi-traction, 4wds(Jeeps and Ramchargers), and a bunch of fwd sedans. The 3 vehicles I've owned that handled these conditions the best were 2 Jaguar X-Types w/AWD and now a M-B GLK350 4Matic (AWD). The AWDs are also very sure-footed in heavy rain as well.

Regards:

Oldengineer

[AdW13]

I agree with what someone said earlier....If I am going to get hit by the other idiots driving two wheel drives with bald street tires I want to be in my full size truck.

People keep mentioning about slowing down. I think the compression brake feature of the tow/haul on the allison tansmissions DOES help thos out when driving in combination with 4x4. I have driven in freezing rain and just put it in first and tapped tow and crawled down a pretty scary hill....more than once. Same as the starting in second gear....you don't lose traction like some of the older 4x4 did. Our biggest problem is the wide track of the dually....When we go on roads not plowed we have only a small space sometimes to drive in and that fat butt of our truck don't go in the geo tracks very good...lol

Clearance is a consideration around here....even our dually 4x4 isn't high enough sometimes. Luckily our vw has a feature to raise the ride height electronically.....we sometimes get lots of snow.