Pick a Topic, Any Automotive Topic!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Everyone, I have heard from several Directors that they have been reading this thread. That is a good thing! I am sure that many of your comments will be discussed by the appropriate committees and the board.

David, you have a problem. That alligator is still trying to get in your house, and I do agree with a past comment, "he has a gun"! Take care and glad you are okay from the hurricane. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[real61ss]

I agree with Bob and Dave, please, do not combine the HPOF or the DPC cars with the restored cars. The HPOF cars are in a class by themselves, they deserve the special recognition that they receive by being parked together but in their own special area. I always visit that area because there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained by looking closely at these cars. I understand and most of the others on this forum understand the difference in these cars and the restored show cars, but I'm afraid that most of the spectators that visit our national events would only see them as "old cars of lesser quality" when placed beside the show cars. Nothing could be further from the truth, these are the backbone of our club and provide the knowledge we as restorers need to return our show cars to their original factory condition. Now, as for the Driver Participation Class, these cars and their owners also, in my opinion deserve a special place on the field and it's not setting beside a finely restored show car that will make them looked down upon because, again most people are not going to take the time to see that it is a driven car. Just my thoughts.

Tommy

[Terry Bond]

Some good thoughts Ron - and don't forget another thing you gave to AACA was Strategic Planning. I think one of the most recent examples of how effective that has been was the expansion of Class 25 to increase the participation (and hopefully membership) of sports car enthusiasts. I can assure you that many of the ideas here in this thread are being looked at by our various committees and are action items within our strategic plan. Earl has appointed several special committees this year and I look forward to seeing their input on some of the very issues addressed here. I've enjoyed this thread and the wondnerful input and thanks to Steve for initiative the dialogue. I'd have responded much sooner but it's been moving too fast to digest almost, and I was away on a business trip until just this weekend.

Anyway-I wanted to share my own personal thoughts on something we might consider to help increase participation. I've heard that a lot of West Coast car lovers just don't enjoy our brand of car show. Now don't think that equates to there being anything wrong with what we do, it just makes me wonder if perhaps we shouldn't offer something thats a little different - perhaps a different kind of meet in addition to our normal array of national meets. There are a couple of things that lead me this way. First, to the casual observer (non-member) an AACA national meet is a fantastic show of some of the very finest vehicles. DPC and HPOF have certainly increased the interest. However, our National Meets tend to be not as well promoted as they should be, and they offer to the public only limited exposure of AACA. All they see is the judging, big trucks, expensive trailers and pristine restorations. Nothing wrong with all that and it is a part of our hobby I personally enjoy and a part of AACA that has been very successful. But, it does seem to help create the pereception that we are an exclusive club and it takes serious bucks to play. Our tours of course answer the need to drive but there is even less opportunity for the general public to enjoy the vehicles unless its at a dinner stop or the host hotel. Again, local publicity often lacks for a variety of valid reasons-event hosts don't want the hassle of crowd control or security.

What if AACA were to offer a "different" kind of event that might be a better "store-front" for us by presenting a varied look at who and what we are? What about just an "exposition" or "gathering" of antique cars. Drive it, trailer it, just come and have some fun. Everybody gets a dash-plaque and leave it at that. I guess it could be structured more like one of those fabulous cruise-ins that we hear so much about. That would be a great place to conduct some special seminars including the judging school that Ron mentioned. It would be a "something for everyone" kind of event that could include an optional fun tour, special displays of AACA National Prize vehicles, HPOF, etc. and would conclude with a Saturday cook-out after the show. The seminars and special exhibits could be used to promote AACA, future activities, to explain the judging process, vehicle classifications, etc. Perhaps this kind of event could be held twice per year-once east and once west.

Ok-Im just rambling, and all of this is just swimming around in my own head-it doesnt represent any "official" AACA thinking. There are no proposals on the table, and this isn't by any stretch of the imagination my (or anyone elses) personal agenda for AACA. But-its perhaps the kind of out-of-the-box thinking that we need to continue doing. And-again I must congratulate Steve on stimulating this.

Terry

[Steve Moskowitz]

No thanks needed, Terry. Ok, everyone, how about more ideas. Lots of question in the first post and few responses! Help us improve the club experience at AACA.

[ex98thdrill]

Steve,

I have never been known to be someone who will hold back on issues and here is another one:

1. HOW DO WE ATTRACT YOUNGER MEMBERS?

- I'd say one thing I think that should be changed if you want to keep members and attract new ones goes back to awards. The first one I'll address now and the second one I'll address under the question about meets. Currently the rule book states that in the event in the change of ownership, all awards are to be returned to AACA except for the first junior award. I'm sorry but in the case of my father and I, we've both spent the time and money doing the restorations OURSELVES and yet if something happens to either one of us the awards will be stripped. Our vehicles are all jointly owned, insured, and licensed, but according to AACA rules the cars can't be registered through joint names and membership numbers other than spouse. That is bad for the club and in my eyes won't help you attract members and won't keep the cars on the show field.

- Under the current rules as they stand now, my father and I (we're both members) own a vehicle that has a 1st Junior AGMN award, and another one with a Senior award under my father's membership number. If something happens to my dad, I will have to surrender the awards if I want to keep showing the two vehicles due to the current rules. What is totally backwards is that I spent the money and did the work too yet I would be punished under the current rule. If I hired someone to do a full restoration of a vehicle, wrote the check and had it delivered to my home, I could win and keep all of these awards, yet currently I paid money, did the work and own the car and will lose everything due to your current system. With that type of short sightedness, I will fight to have this changed, but if it hasn't been changed when the time comes, there will be two words to sum up the whole thing.... GOOD BYE.... I'm quite confident over the years that this has already happened and there are cars that aren't on the field today because of it. It is amazing that under the current rules the awards can stay with the vehicle under my mother's name, yet not mine. I'm not trying to sound nasty about this, but to be honest with you when it came to restoring those cars, the closest involvement my mother had in the restoration was when she'd come out to the shop to get us both because lunch was ready and we were still working on the cars . AACA provisions don't allow a father and son to have a joint membership, yet allow a spouse to be on the membership. In my household, my wife and my mother both could care less about the shop or what's in it. In the case of these two vehicles, a Preservation tab is a heck of a lot cheaper then spending money on the trophies that the cars have already won.

- If I were to buy Ron Green's Pontiac (a Senior AGMN award winner) then I feel the club would be correct in their current rule stripping the awards from it, but currently I stand the chance of losing awards on a vehicle that I already owned, restored, and brought to the meets.

2. HOW DO WE GAIN MORE MEMBERS IN THE WEST AND OTHER PLACES WE ARE NOT REPRESENTED?

- I'd say distance has a lot to do with that as well. If you have older members who are retired, many of them are on a fixed income and do not have the means to bring their cars to events in the northeast. In the case of younger people, many don't have the means to get the time off of work to bring vehicles to events in our areas. Currently I won't have the time to get off of work so that I can go to the AGNM in Denver, but I have been trying to convince my mom to take the trip so my father doesn't have to go alone.

- To expand on what Howard said, people stereotype really easy. If you meet one guy from New Jersey who is a total jerk, people start to think that New Jersey is nothing but a bunch of jerks. As it was said after the AGNM last month, there were many people who had a stereotype of what people in New York are like and found things to be quite different than what they perceived. As we meet other members who live in the west, all of us should pay special attention as to how we treat these people, and how they perceive us as well (Except for Howard ).

3. WHAT SERVICES ARE WE NOT PROVIDING OUR MEMBERS THAT YOU WOULD WANT?

-Nothing from my vantage point.

4. THE MAGAZINE WILL CHANGE, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?

- Feature a car of a different decade each month as far as stories go. We publish six issues a year. With the 1980 model year being eligible for AACA in four short months, you could start at the 1900's and be up to the 1980's in nine issues which would take a year and a half. This would keep everyone looking forward to future issues instead of boring others. I'm not trying to say anything negative on anyone's work, but the Rambler stories are getting older than the cars themselves.

5. IDEAS FOR CHANGING OF OUR WEBSITE, WHAT FEATURES DO YOU SUGGEST?

- I have previously addressed ideas for CJE and judging schools going online to enhance learning and reference as well as increase our pool of judges and judging expertise.

6. HOW CAN WE IMPROVE OUR MEETS?

- Eliminate the banquet. For the $64 that is costs for two of us to eat dinner, we can almost eat for two nights at a nice restaurant and don't have to hear the long speaches from some elected official who could care less, or knows nothing about cars. This would save us all a lot of money as well as take the burden off of the host chapter who has already worked their butt off to begin with. Present the awards on the show field. This would allow the spectators the opportunity to see which cars took awards, and could also ease the bottleneck in traffic going out of the show. If a person leaves the field prior to the awards ceremony, they forfeit their award. For the people who live a great distance from the meet, it allows for some of them to load up and get on the road to go home at a decent time. I'd rather spend an extra hour or two in the showfield rather than wait three hours after the meet to deal with the expensive banquet and boring speeches that take place prior to getting to the awards. Currently if you go to the awards banquet, you're going to be hard pressed to get out of there much before 11PM. If you can have the awards wrapped up by 7PM it would allow people the chance to get a couple of hours on the road to get home. For the folks who live out west, this might make a difference as to wether they participate or not.

- Allow an HPOF certified vehicle the opportunity to go for other awards and award them as long as they meet the minimum points required for the award sought. If you have an HPOF certified vehicle and it goes for a 1st Junior or anything else, give out the award so long as it gets the points needed and apply the 10 point rule only to a vehicle that has been restored.

- A clear example of this is that my father's best friend has several vehicles that are all original (to include the window sticker) that would make great HPOF cars. Because of the other cars in class that may be high dollar restorations, this guy's cars would never make it based on the 10 point rule. Peter Heizman can verify everything that I'm saying about this guy because he has seen the colleciton too. This guy is not an AACA member, but he has a lot of real nice cars that are original and don't warrant a frame off restoration. In this case, most of these cars never see the light of day. My idea for HPOF is the following:

a. 1st Show - the car gets HPOF certified.

b. 2nd show - the car gets a 1st Junior Award if it scores at or above the required points, or a second or third place award if found to be appropriate.

c. 3rd show - the car gets a Senior Award if it scores at or above the required points.

- It is the HPOF cars that we use for references. Without those cars, we lose those references. If the people who own these cars can be eligible to win these awards based on points only, this may bring more people and more cars out. If a person has a real nice original car and loses awards based on a 10 point difference between their car and a 400 point restoration they probably won't be bringing their car around. If you are making a guy with a real nice original Packard park next to a guy with an AMC Pacer (nothing against Pacers guys), you probably will not see him at too many shows for too long either.

- Think about it. AACA is about preservation, not restoration. The HPOF cars are excellent examples of preserving the cars. If you judged the cars in their original state and not their restored state, it would be the HPOF cars that would be winning the awards. As long as a car is HPOF certified, put it in the class where it belongs. Until it becomes HPOF certified, you put those cars in the HPOF class or the DPC class until such time they are either proven to be correct or are restored. I see no reason why a car can't have an HPOF, 1st Junior Badge, Senior Tab, AGMN badge, and an AGNM Senior tab on the front of it as long as the vehicle meets the points that are required. But that same vehicle shouldn't be left out of the awards because of the point difference, nor should it be parked off to the side as if it were a misfit.

7. ANY NEW TOURING IDEAS?

- Never been to one because of work schedule.

8. HOW CAN WE FIND THE $$$ TO SUPPORT THE LIBRARY, MUSEUM AND NATIONAL?

- Not knowing how it is funded now, get it designated as a non-profit organization is not already done so. As what has been done in professional sports, obtain and seek large corporate sponsors to help fund and promote us.

9. HOW CAN WE GET THE EARLY CARS OUT MORE?

- I'd almost say that most of us collect and restore vehicles that pertain to our childhood and/or adolescent years. Because most of us didn't grow up around a brass car, or our dream car as a teenager wasn't a Duryea, I'd have to say that the people who really had the interest have long passed away. Many of the cars in our meets are 50's through 70's vintage vehicles or vehicles that we can relate to.

Steve,

This is just the viewpoint of me. I'm only one person, and I'm sure the viewpoint of the majority far outweighs mine. My thoughts are to get the people to the meets and to bring in the cars. We need the younger members, we need the cars on the field, and we need to stop punishing the owners of the HPOF cars by mixing them into one class away from the cars.

[ronbarn]

ex98thdrill, Don't get your panties in such a wad until you check things out. Your situation has been addressed several times and exceptions have been made - not as a rule, but on a case basis. When a family member who has shown a car passes to that great garage in the sky and the car is inherited by another family member, a request to make an exception to the rule for the new family owner should be sent to the VP Class Judging. This has been done - key word is "family".

Your comments about the banquet are worth some "limited" consideration. Some people really do like going to banquets. Others choose not to attend and either return home and have any award they win mailed to them, or go out to eat and come in just for the awards. However that being said, there is at least one precedent for your suggestion. Many years ago the awards were presented at an adjacent arena near the showfield at Stone Mountain, GA. With the new computerized admin system, the list of winners is being generated earlier than in the past and this may be an alternative the host region can use. The word "limited" was used since there are enough participants who like the banquets and for larger meets the savings in time would not be that much. I think it is an option that should be available to the host region.

At the risk of having my post edited by a moderator, I do not appreciate your comments regarding members who like the older cars. There are still a bunch of years left in many of us and to suggest that we just delete them from any interest and focus the club only on the 50s and up is pure arrogance and disrespect! I think the cliche that owners are only interested in the cars of their youth is grossly over stated. Many, maybe not most, prefer cars that well preceeded our personal youth. No one has ever heard me comment negatively about the newer cars, but I do very much resent such comments that you made in your post. If you are trying to get this moved back to R&R, you've made a good start.

[Olds 442]

In support of ex39thdrill I think you need to read his post again.In regards to getting the early cars out I feel he is right, although I don't fit his description. I am considered by many members to be in the "young" category (41)but have an interest in the early cars. I own two Model T's but also have a 60's "Muscle" car.He didn't say that "All" people who like these cars were gone- just "Most" of them.

As far as the points go for judging, how can anyone say that you don't compete with the other cars when a 10 point spread (5 point for AGNM) is used? If a car receives the minimum number of points for the award you are seeking then the award should be given regardless of what score the other cars in your class get

Not trying to stir up trouble....just my opinion

[ex98thdrill]

No Ron there's no disrespect intended on the older cars, and if I offended you, please accept my apology. I am however making a point that most people collect and restore vehicles that they grew up around. If you look around, the older cars aren't around as much today because the people that grew up around them aren't around as much either. I myself do appreciate the brass cars, but on the flip side, if a brass car can be obtained for the same price as another car that I want to add to my collection (like an older Corvette) I would rather overlook the brass car and take the Corvette.

As I said at the end of my post, that is my viewpoint which is probably nothing close to how the majority feels.

On the topic of awards for the HPOF cars, we judge the cars for factory authenticity. If a car is still original and in pristine condition, it is the way that it left the factory.

[A. Woolf]

Olds 442 I disagree with your take on ex39thdrill. Not all individuals are interested in cars they grew up with. I certainly was not. That is one of those urban legends that is frequently used as an excuse to plan club events. I am 47 and bought my first car a Model A at age 15. I have always been interested in older cars especially brass and cars of the teens. I currently own a 1917 Stanley and a 1913 T. And I know at least two guys in their twenties who are brass fanatics.

I don't know if I would be classed as an old guy or not. I sort of feel in between old and young when it comes to the discussion about ages of hobbyists. I have been active in the hobby for a long time and I have owned some later cars too. My perspective is a bit different because I know a lot of the older guys in hobby and also some of the younger ones. I still strongly believe the older cars have a place in the hobby and will always continue regardless of the attitude of some indivduals. I can certainly appreciate the later post war cars and muscle cars but my personal focus is on the old cars.

BTW Ron I was at the Stone Mountain meet that you referenced where they handed out trophies immediately after the show. The thing you forgot to mention was that it was the hottest day of the year and it was miserable. I like the idea of the awards ceremony right after the show but some consideration should be given to the climatic conditions!

The award ceremony on the lawn after the show is very popular at the Pebble and Amelia Island and other concurs events. At those shows they have the award winner drive their car up and they are presented the award. The MC usually gives some history or background on the car and sometimes will briefly interview the owner. I think it helps personalize the award. Why couldn't this be done at an AACA show? It would only make sense to do this with the 1st Junior and Senior Cars due to the numbers of awards at the biggest shows. The Preservation cars would have already had the honor when they won a Senior award. This would also be a great thing to do with first time HPOF winners. The history of a lot of those cars is usually of interest. There is usually a story as to why they survived.

Alan

[Olds 442]

Alan, as i said , I too have an interrest in the early cars. Having Model T's should show that .I also like many others but I think Pat had a valid point when he said that most people identify with cars that they grew up with

[ronbarn]

OK - If we concede that MOST people like the cars they grew up with, let's stop wasting time on that as an excuse. There are members still alive and well who own some of the older cars (some of us, not necessarily me, are not even old geezers) who are not bringing out the cars. Let's answer the question. What can we do to get those cars out? That was Steve's question. We don't need any more responses about why the 50s and above show their cars. We need to know what can be done to get the old cars out. If you have absolutely no interest in the older cars, just stay out of the discussion. We don't need your opinion.

I'll tell you what will get my older cars out. Somebody help me get them running! I'm working as fast as I can, but even at my young age (as Earl would say - hehe) I'm not keeping up. Is that the major problem? What incentive can we offer to peak their interest? We have good attendance at the Reliability Tours, but AACA has decided to make them only every other year. Is that a good decision? If members want to run their cars, but have to wait for alternate years (or drive on tours sponsored by other clubs) is AACA really interested in bringing out the older cars.

One last thing before I retire to my gereatric bed, many of the meets assign spaces on the field to each registered vehicle. How about assigning spaces in the HPOF and DPC according to year of manufacture. Start at one end with the oldest and move up the row by age. This would prevent a 1911 Hudson from being parked next to a 1961 Cadillac. If having an older car next to a newer car is a problem in those classes for some people, this might be a solution. I do not agree with the idea that they should be mingled with the judging classes. That confuses the visitors and makes for a very difficult situation for the teams who have to verify HPOF or DPC certification.

In addition to some of us older folks who still have a few years from six foot under, there are some young members who like the older cars. If we promise not to "dis" you, will you stop "dissing" us.

Moderaters - do your work if need be. I'm going to bed so I can get up tomorrow morning to work on my OLD CAR!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This would prevent a 1911 Hudson from being parked next to a 1961 Cadillac. </div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Can't we all just get along? </span></span>

What's the problem in that anyway? Doesn't that sound like an interesting contrast? Or at least a curious sight?

I think the more that is done to intermingle types of cars in the AACA (<span style="font-style: italic">and <span style="font-weight: bold">every</span> other club</span>), the fewer troubles we'll have with age/era/class/make provincialism like Ron's having to deal with in this very thread!

But that's just me.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We have good attendance at the Reliability Tours, but AACA has decided to make them only every other year. Is that a good decision? </div></div>

This sounds like a great opportunity to build <span style="font-style: italic">Regional</span> tours of a similar nature. In this case I'm speaking of a "regional" in a generic sense, not specifically relating to the current formally organized <span style="font-style: italic">AACA Regions</span>.

In the Buick Club the terms "Chapter" and "Region" are more formally defined than they are in the AACA. Local organizations are "Chapters", which are grouped in six "Regions" across the 50 states. Every year, usually about a month away from the club's "National" meet, there are "Regional Meets" held. In fact I'm currently preparing to go to the Great Lakes Regional in Pittsburgh this weekend.

Organizing tours that are more local or regional (small r) in nature I would think would be more conducive to older pre-war car participation, especially those <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> owned by retired people who don't have 2 weeks to devote to a tour. If the AACA were organize an alternate-year rotation of regional and national tours each might help the other synergistically by rousing interest and providing experience/familiarity in touring.

If the AACA were to designate one week or weekend every other year (say odd year Father's Days) as set aside specifically for each Chapter/Region to tour locally I think it would: A. spark much more interest in organizing said events; B. give the club highly visible and repeated (therefore anticipated) exposure to the public; and C. rekindle an activity vital to maintaining interest in authentic vehicles.

I think a lot of people would be very surprised how much (say) a 1917 Oakland can be enjoyed. Even some who've owned one for years.

[ksparks]

I am guilty party since i let my membership lapse due to living overseas but will soon correct. The comments about unrestored older ( teen/twenty era ) projects not be as available has a lot of merit. But the only true way to expand interest in the AACA is to encourage current members to try their best to share their love of old cars with their kids,when showing an older car have a small board explaining the history of the vehicle or old ads, discourage the myth that you have to be rich to own any pre 40 car,expand the amount of impromtu showing of cars whether in the downtown area of a town or the local sonics, when young people are at a show be helpful in explaining the vehicle and answer questions, we are all guilty of sitting in our lawn chairs talking with each other than selling the hobby to those looking in our cars ( i remember as a kid in the sixties asking questions at the Stowe meet to an owner with a 15 Pierce Arrow who made a point of just being plain rude )

We have to think out of the box and sell our hobby like a vendor at a covention booth. I grew to love old cars because my dad collected them. My highlight of the weekends was tracking leads through out vermont and new hampshire. i was sold on the hobby since my dad new AK Miller in Vermont. The thrill of those days seeing Stutzs, Rolls, Minvera, etc etc in barns unrestored will last me a life time.

Keith Sparks

22 Auburn

20 Moon

[Guest 1959olds]

I am from a small (approx. 25,000 people) town in eastern Indiana. A month or so, we had the Maxwell Tour come to our town. I think there were approx. 12-15 of them of various years. Our local chamber was notified of when they would be here, the local newspaper advertised a week in advance. The local chamber invited the Maxwell owners to stop and have lunch at our local park,and were presented with a small flower arrangement to each car, with the date and such on a small brass tag attached. WHile the group ate, the locals got a free car show. Imagine my surprise at seeing 1-2,000 of our locals looking at the cars in the park. All of this was on a Thursday afternoon at noon! It seems everyone from my shop ate lunch in the park that day to view them. My suggestion would be to get some of the smaller towns along your tours involved. The Maxwells went to about 5 different towns in this area with the largest being about 40,000 population, and from what I heard, everyones turnout was really good.

[ex98thdrill]

Alan, as in my original post, Steve Moskowitz was looking for input and I gave it to him. It wasn't meant as a complaint, but more as constructive input. Wether the issue gets addressed or ignored, I don't care, but if say nothing, and something goes on that I don't like, then I have no one to blame other than myself for not speaking my piece. My father and I have 17 cars, and our oldest one dates back to 1929, so I'm not against the old stuff.

Look at reality. People are saying that they want the younger people to get involved, yet with the way things are being done, I'm afraid that we're going to price ourselves out of existence. If you join AACA and then join your local chapter, plan on spending at least $50 a year. If you buy a car and have it restored or buy the equipment to do it yourself, that will cost you a bundle. If you show the car and decide to take the family to the awards banquet, you're looking at a sizeable amount of money for a meal, and another night in a hotel because the banquets end late. If the car is a really old car like several people want to see more of, it isn't safe to drive on the roads because of its' lack of power, so now you're looking at $20,000 - $40,000 to buy a good tow vehicle and trailer to haul the car to and from the meets. To add to the complexity, the days of raising a family on a single income have long since passed so to be able to have the kind of money to get into this hobby makes things very hard to do. My father and I operate on a shoestring budget and do everything ourselves and between the truck, the trailer and one show car we've got $50,000 tied up. How many young people can afford $50,000? We've done it because we've worked several jobs at a time, and we've pooled our resources. Thank god for the DPC and the scooters because it allows people to get in the club at entry level but even at that, it still adds up. If you take the high dollar cars, the fancy trailers and the expensive motorhomes or even tractor trailers used for hauling cars, our operation is still a drop in the bucket. After running 2-3 meets a year, I can't imagine the expenses that our National Officers incurr attending all of these events. Knowing what it costs us to build our own cars and to run competetive, I have the utmost respect for our national officers for what they do, and the money, time, and dedication that those folks give for this club.

The bad thing about the Forum is that the words are monotone so it is often difficult to be able to tell the difference between harsh words versus regular conversations or even a joke. Please don't take any of my posts on this subject as a complaint. These are very real concerns of mine as to the future of this club. As in a previous thread Howard mentioned about the museum, or the library or the club, we as a group need ot think things through very carefully or we're going to find ourselves in trouble.

[A. Woolf]

ex98thdrill. No offense was taken nor is any offered when discussing these topics. You are right about the difficulty of communicating in a forum and getting the real message across without coming off as arrogant.

Getting back to your points, I have felt like for a long time we discourage a lot of potential enthusiasts by telling them they cannot afford to be in the hobby. Just because the long time collectors can afford to spend to spend big money doesn?t mean everyone can or should. Buying and restoring a car can be a big expense but it does not have to be. Cars are like working on old houses and sweat equity can help overcome a lack of cash flow. Case in point my brother bought a very rough 1915 Model T roadster in 1979. My father, brother, and I restored the car out of my parent?s basement. Equipment was limited to a 1hp air compressor, a 6-inch lathe, gas welding equipment, and a selection of hand tools. We did all of the work on the car including engine rebuilding (except boring of the block), welding of patch panels, painting (in the back yard) and all of brass restoration and assembly and details. The upholstery and top were kits that we installed. The total bill for the restoration and purchase was around $6000 spent over about 2-1/2 years. Oh and I forgot to mention the car won the AACA Ford Award. Granted 6K would be twice that or more today but spread out a bit most folks with a reasonable income can figure out how to afford that kind of money. Now just to bring it up to date a bit late last year I bought a very original 13 T on Ebay for 9K. It cost $1200 to ship it across country and I have spent about 5K on a full mechanical restoration, top, and tires. I now have a very presentable and reliable brass car that is ready to tour. My father and brother helped me do the work and we did it right and I did not skimp on parts this time. At this time I can afford to do things a bit differently than when I was a 15-year-old throwing newspapers to support a Model A habit. The bigger point being is that you can still get in the hobby to at an entry level and not have to break the bank. T?s and A?s are still cheap. You can buy T?s for much less than what I paid and it will take more sweat equity but it can be done. We need to recapture the idea of the ability to enter the hobby and work your way up. I bet a lot of guys with high dollar cars started out with Model T?s and A?s and traded their way up. If you read the old AACA magazines from the 50s and 60s a lot of cars were owner restored and many were National Prize winners.

The argument about the older cars and safety comes up a lot. I do drive my cars in traffic (a suburb of a major metropolitian area) where I live (non-interstate) and do fine but for most folks they would be feel better driving an older car in a more controlled environment. That is where organized touring gets to be important. We do some traveling and try to make a tour that is a long distance from home (500-1000 miles) about once a year. And we do it without a lot of fancy equipment. We own a nice open trailer that we bought used several years ago and my father owns a nice 91 Chevy ¾ ton truck with a tow package that was purchased used very reasonably a couple of years ago. With this combination we haul a 4000-pound car quite comfortably. In twenty years of traveling we have never had any problem with our cars being vandalized while on the road. We also participate in local tours and try to drive to and from weekend tours that are from 50-100 miles from home. We have no show cars right now and have pretty much retired from the show car circuit so keeping a car clean in transit to a show is not a priority. Driving and touring is a lot more fun. BTW I am an engineer in the aerospace industry in my professional life and I am pretty darn conservative when it comes to safety issues. So don?t think because I talking about low cost equipment that it is not safe.

I really believe people can do what they set their mind to do. If they believe they cannot do something they will never attempt to do it. I run into a lot of folks who could be in this hobby if they just set a goal and pursued their dream. That is what I have done since I was kid looking at AACA magazines and dreaming of going on Glidden tours and winning national awards. And I have done all of that and more.

I still haven?t answered Steve?s questions but I will start a new reply for that purpose later.

Alan

[ronbarn]

Alan, I just finished watching tonight's segment of the Olympics and then read your comment and could not help see the similarity. Your statement was simply magnificent. Instill the dream and they will come (build the ballpark and they will come). Let's don't argue about older cars vs. newer cars, driven vs. trailered, judging vs. touring, owner restored vs. pro restored, etc. Let's figure out how to instill that dream. Thanks.

[1937hd45]

Post deleted by Peter J Heizmann

[poci1957]

I think this is why the 25 year rule should make the AACA flexible to a new group of enthusiasts every generation. It is hard for me to believe 1979 models are now eligible as they don't seem that old to me, but that moving target should open the shows to a younger generation every few years. But is that happening? I don't know, I have seen older members just bring, say, a 1970's Cadillac to show INSTEAD of their older cars and keeping another older car off the road. Even so, in concept I still think the moving 25 year cutoff and the DPC should continually open the door to new people. The bigger problem is finding a way to further immerse the newcomer into the hobby by welcoming them and not being rude, elitist, or exclusionary as some of us can be. We MUST try to be friendly ambassadors to the hobby and make it more attractive to new people. Todd C

[1937hd45]

Post deleted by Peter J Heizmann

[24T42]

The question of staggering entry fees is an interesting point. I know some Regions here in NC that have offered free registration to the earlier cars. Is this discriminatory - probably. Did it work - yes!

[Guest imported_klb]

Maybe the AACA should do a little "Mystery Shopping".

Pretty simple really. Send someone to an AACA show where no-one knows them and have report back on the experience. These would need to be events where the public was welcome, of course. (Does the AACA even have events where the public is "welcome"?)

Send them as spectators and potential club members.

Were they treated kindly by the show officials if they interacted with them?

How did car owners react to questions about their cars?

Was there someone who could and would answer their questions about joining they AACA?

Did that person encourage joining the AACA?

Might be interesting.

[R W Burgess]

KLB, Good idea!

Re;...<span style="font-weight: bold">Might be interesting. </span>...Might also be eye opening.

I've been to all kinds of car shows, except maybe a Concours, and have noticed that a lot of people are "clanish" in their attitudes, wanting to stay with their own friends and cars and not wanting to intereact with strangers. I'm a little different, in that I'll start a conversation just to see what reactions I'll get. You learn so much about people that way. You also get the car owners to open up about their cars when asking questions about their "babies". Just thinking out loud here. The Mystery Shopping is a good idea though, if you can find the members willing to do it. Wayne

[24T42]

SMILE - You could be on 'Candid Camera'!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Wow, finally! A thread that is offering solutions not just gripes (gripes ARE ok!) Good stuff here, keep the dialogue going everyone. There are many areas that have not bee addressed! Certainly many of you have made valid points. I'd like to address many of them but busy (daughter here for her wedding!)!

[R W Burgess]

Judy, Wayne is always "Candid", "Odnoxious", "Outspoken", and probably a few other unmentionable names that have been put on him over the years. The wife just calls him, CRAZY! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

My 12 year old loves to talk to spectators about our car. It really surprises me that he does. He is usually pretty shy, but at a car show, he likes to tell anyone that will listen all about the car. I have had several folks tell me what a good job he did. He helped with the restoration so he is pretty knowledgable about the car. It makes me proud. Can you tell?

I am always quite willing to answer questions about my car. I don't personally greet each spectator that passes, but if they seem interested in the car, I will ask them how they are doing, and a conversation will go on from there.

I have seen some people who are real jerks to strangers about their car. Smart@$$ answers to questions, that sort of thing. It's a real turn off.

[poci1957]

Hal, congratulations on interesting him in the old car, he will be likely to want one himself and will be one to enjoy and respect old cars. Your involvement in old cars may someday be the tie that bonds you together, as it is for me and my dad. I think this is the key, to make the hobby a pursuit that one would WANT to be part of. Obviously we all have our areas of interest and areas we want nothing to do with (street rods, in my case, newer model cars for other people). But greeting questioners with smart remarks and smug attitudes are a sure way to send them away, as Hal said, and who wants to come back after being treated like that? I have found many old car people to be very nice about sharing stories about their old car, but an equal number have treated me with a sneer for being younger or less affluent (in their opinion) then they, or for just not being in their circle of friends. Open up people! And as I have stated before, that 20 year old kid may one day be the one you hope will buy and care for your old car, so we better keep them interested. Todd C

[Wowabunga]

Hey let me talk about the great flea market the club has each year.... My first time there I was in awe that there was no admission charge... more money to spend on Rambler parts....!!!!!! Now that I have vendor spaces my biggest surprise was that early in the week it seemed that half the shoppers were from foreign lands, and they really looked over my "dusty and rusty treasures" real good. Zero complaints about the volume of shoppers.

Now contrast that to some of the other big shows I vendor parts at, and now we have $70 and $80 dollar space rentals... and the reall whopper is the $8 and even $9 dollars that some shows charge just to walk in the gate. I just did a show and had prime realestate outside the main building and sold a total of 8 automotive related items Fri thru Sun... I'm thinking maybe they bought all their stuff on the net from the comfort of their livingroom. My bet is that the cost for a family of four on Sunday to walk in the gate just cost them $26... hey Daddy can I have a $2 bottle of water? Big car shows if you are reading this... I used to buy 2 spaces from you... I find I only need one now... good chance I won't need that one soon due to your attendees aren't spending...!

There may not be any monetary reward for the show volunteers, but gosh the atmosphere they foster is so cool. In good news I bought 4 spaces at Hershey for vending and don't regret the expenditure one bit. So folks... keep the events free to get in. As a vendor I just can't help think that everyone in the end will win.

As to Hemmings trying to get the younger crowd... I hope they are going for the 25 and up. A photographer from this "newer gen" magazine took my pic at a recent show and says I'll be in next months issue... oh my............. the 40year old kid in me is all excited........... this ain't your father's Hemmings.... http://www.gaugemagazine.com/backissues/

[Ron Green]

Regarding the "Mystery Shopping". We have been to a fair amount of the AACA shows the last 8 years, much to the dismay of my wife on occasion. Before and after judging she stays with the car and I roam. I can honestly say that I can't ever recall when a car owner or any AACA official did anything that might have given anyone bad thoughts. I typically roam in stealth and don't miss much. I'm sure on occasion things happen but I would believe that would be the exception and not the rule.

Every AACA event should be open to the public and I was disappointed that at the recent Grand National the public was not invited via local advertising, etc. The hosting region did advertise in Hemmings, etc but not to the general public. This is what I was told anyhow by one of the region volunteers as I was wondering why the place was pretty much empty with the exception of the owners in the afternoon. It doesn't do the AACA any good by not promoting one of the top shows of the year.

[nearchoclatetown]

Ron, if you want to go that far to advertise to the public, how about the Museum Expo. It happens every year with little fanfare. If you had looked at the calendar even on this site before the Expo there was very little info given. I really enjoy the type of show the Expo is, but there's more cars at the Soda Jerk every month then at the once a year Expo.While I'm rattling the cage, why not have an Expo in every region on the same day, with all proceeds going to the Museum and Research Library?

[Ron Green]

If you don't advertise they surely won't come and if they don't come no exposure for the AACA. I missed the Expo the past 2 years as I was out of town however the advertising is 10 fold when comparing it to the Hershey Concours. The Concours is the same weekend as the hill climb and benefits the museum. Its just getting started however it has the potential to be a first class event if given the chance.

The museum seems to be advertising more as the TV ad is running a fair amount and I was at a show last Sunday and saw a museum volunteer going car to car and handing out information on the museum. He was enthusiastic to say the least as I listened to my brother and him talking.

[Terry Bond]

You guys are right on topic with your observation about promotion being an essential ingredient. In a recent Rummage Box article I expoused on that very subject to our Regions and Chapters. I hear people complaining all the time about not wanting to deal with crowds, etc. at their events. It does add expense and hassle to many local, even national meets and for those reasons we leave it up to the host group to determine the level of promotion that takes place. Its all dependent on their capabilities. Generally though what ends up happening is we seem to have "closed" events. It does help create a negative perception. Ive also seen some very successfully promoted national and local activities. At those well promoted meets Ive seen big crowds all day at the AACA membership table - and the attendance at our youth programs has been fantastic. Each of our events-national or local is literally AACA's "store-front." We need to make the most of those opportunities to attract new members, keep old ones, encourage youth, and send a correct message to the public. Effective promotion is the key.

Terry

[Ron Green]

Look no further then the Grand National a few years back in Moline. It was held on main street and advertised well before hand it seemed. It wasn't a large national meet maybe 230 vehicles however it was absolutely packed with local people after the morning rains stopped. Yes you had to watch your car somewhat and I know of a few incidents things did happen to someone's vehicle but it was a great time for both the owners and locals. Nothing better to promote the AACA.

It probably took a lot more time and money to put this type of event on but the day flew by and many good conversations were had with the town people. Better then sitting watching your watch wondering how early you can leave (for some) since its not crowded. All have a good weekend! Go drive a antique.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Ron...good example concerning Moline. Very nice time and venue.

Another that immediately came to mind was the 2000 Spring Meet in Winchester, VA. (They have a long tradition with the Apple Blossom Festival/Car Show and incorporated the AACA Meet that year.) Great turnout.

Hopefully, someone from the Shenandoah Region could add suggestions/comments.

Regards, Peter.

[A. Woolf]

Steve,

I decided to see if I could add something to your discussion by addressing each topic point by point. Nothing I have written is intended to be offensive or controversial but I hope it does keep the discussion moving forward in a positive direction.

1. How do we attract younger members?

a. Quit teaching them that this hobby requires lots of cash. Use the magazine

to highlight owner restorers and put some focus on teaching basic techniques and how to do restorations creatively. Tom Reese?s columns were great teaching tools. We need more of the same type of writing with new ideas for the postwar crowd.

b. Get them behind the wheel. Showing cars is cool and winning prizes is fun but the bottom line is that cars are made to be driven. One issue that needs to be addressed is insurance for the pre-25 year old drivers. The antique car specialty insurers have made it almost impossible for a pre-25 year old to drive a collector car. I suspect the real problem has to do with keeping pre-25 year olds from driving high dollar, high horsepower muscle cars. A teenager in that type of car could be a big risk. But it also impacts their opportunity to drive Model A and T Fords and six cylinder 56 Chevys and much more reasonable not so expensive collector cars. All of the major car clubs really need to address this issue with the specialty antique car insurers and get some reasonable coverage in place for the next generation of collector car owner.

c. Feed their dreams. I am a second-generation old car guy and my dad was a big influence but I was also a kid with a huge interest in old cars and several members in our local club didn?t blow me off or ignore me. They answered my questions and encouraged me when they realized my interest in old cars was for real. One member in particular used to let me drive his cars as a 16 year old. Driving a big classic Pierce Arrow made a big impression on me.

2. How do we gain more members in the West and other places we are not represented?

For me personally one of the real pleasures of going to different places for old car tours and shows is meeting new people and learning about different parts of the country, however, regional prejudices are alive and well. I know a little about this from hosting tours in the last couple of years. Some folks just will not travel outside of their part of the country for anything. One suggestion that I cannot take credit for but may be worth considering is to break the club down into regions of the country i.e. SE, NE, SW, NW etc. Each region would then select board members from their region to represent them. Activities for the region should be planned and organized by committees within the region and should be allowed to reflect the interests of the regional groups. Just as Howard Scotland and Dan Binger have commented on the unique opportunities for touring out west maybe a ?western? regional group could focus more on touring and less on national type judging meets that are more popular in the northeast. Hopefully keeping more of a focus on regions would help ?sell? the club to new members.

3. What services are we not providing our members that you would want?

Nothing from my perspective.

4. The magazine will change, what would YOU like to see?

Go study the old magazines from the 50?s and look at the quality of the photography and articles. A lot of the articles that I read again and again as a boy were the stories of how individuals found rare (and not so rare) cars and the subsequent restorations. In many cases the owners restored their own cars and their creativity in restoring their car was showcased. Leonard Rhinehart?s 1910 Mitchell now owned by Gene Reeves that is pictured in the current AACA magazine is a good example of a ?Salon? car that was featured in the old magazines.

My particular interest is in brass and teens era cars. The attempt to be diverse with a 25-year and older focus just does not work for me. And I am sure the muscle car guys feel the same way about early cars. Trying to be ?all things to all people? rarely works well. How about printing two or three different magazines? Maybe with your membership you get a ?generic? AACA magazine that talks about club activities and reports on meet results and tours and you also get to pick from one other publication that has its focus on brass cars, or teenage cars, or prewar cars, or postwar cars, or muscle cars or whatever split makes sense. If you wanted to get all of the ?focus? magazines that are offered then you can pay additional fees to get them. The key to these magazines would be great photography and articles from individuals who can really write about their interests with knowledge and passion.

Another thought for the magazine is ?drive reports?. If you have read any of Ralph Stein?s books he was able to drive and capture the spirit of an automobile and help the reader to gain an understanding and insight into being behind the wheel of the car he was driving. Another thought would be to have a ?face off? with various cars. How about road testing and comparing a 1910 Model T Ford and 1910 10hp Stanley? Or a maybe a Boss 302 Mustang vs. a Z/28 Camaro. All of this is a bit of dreaming but it has been done and could be taken to a new level.

5. Ideas for changing of our website, what features do you suggest.

Other than adding more pictures of recent tours and national meets the website looks pretty good.

6. How can we gain improve our meets?

National meets definitely needs a new paradigm. The way a National Meet is organized and conducted hasn?t changed much in 50+ years. There are a lot more National meets each year than in AACA?s early days. The last couple of AACA meets I have attended were poorly publicized and therefore not well attended by the public. Maybe the time has come to cut back on the quantity of meets and consider changing how they are conducted. We have to get out of the mindset of putting on shows for the membership only. One of the nicest shows I have attended in a long time is the Amelia Island Concours d?Elegance. It is an invitation only show and they always bring out a fantastic group of cars from brass to muscle cars to racecars and everything in between. Even with a $25.00 admission fee it draws a huge crowd of all ages from teenagers to octogenarians. The money from the ticket sales is given to charitable organizations so I am sure that is part of the draw to the event. I am not suggesting that AACA meets be invitation only or put on as fund raisers but there are some elements of the Concours d?Elegance type show that might used to craft a new type of AACA meet and get the public out and involved. Things like having an MC announcing the winners right after judging and have them drive up and receive their award could really help capture the attention of the audience.

7. Any new touring ideas?

Going back to regional idea from question number 2 how about promoting shorter 3 or 4-day (long weekend) regional tours focused on individuals from a smaller geographic area. I keep hearing comments about two income families and it is more difficult to get away for a few days. I think the real truth is that families are heavily involved in other activities (baseball, soccer, etc) and the old car hobby is not thought of as a family activity. It?s thought of as dad?s hobby. Tours can be great teaching tools from a geographic and historical perspective and I guess we need help families understand the value of the ?total? touring experience for the entire family. Plus getting the kids in the garage to at least be exposed to automobiles and mechanical things gives them a bit of practical knowledge that will be useful as they grow up.

8. How can we find the $$$ to support the Library, Museum and National?

I can?t help you with this one. I am not gifted in the area of fund raising.

9. How can we get the early cars out more?

This is another diversity issue in my opinion. The prewar guys don?t feel a part of the postwar car hobby and vice-versa. How about sponsoring pre-war and post war meets? AACA already offers touring for various ages of cars. Why not do the same for judging meets?

BTW one area that just about every club ignores is the ?Nickel Era? car. There are a lot of very nice cars from the 1915 to 1930 era that get little recognition. This might be a good place to increase numbers for prewar touring and judging.

10. How can I find more time in the day? Probably know the answer, stay off the site!

Quit sleeping!

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><font size=+2>Alan</font></span></span>

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[Guest imported_klb]

Re: Attracting young people;

Might it be possible for tours happening during the spring or fall, and during week days, to arrange to make a stop at a high school along the way?

[ksparks]

great and articulate points. as far as the magazine which i have enjoyed i would suggest more barnyard find stories. as far as members i would suggest recruiting drives and those chapters that do the best off recognition/awards. we then all could learn what we we could do better.

keith

22 auburn

20 moon

[Steve Moskowitz]

Just a few minutes to let you folks know I and the Directors are continuing to read these posts. Great stuff...keep it up. I need time to digest everything...my daughter was married this weekend here in Hershey and I am spent. My best friend from Illinois drove my '75 Olds convertible here as a surprise. I have two collector cars here now!