Pick a Topic, Any Automotive Topic!

[Steve Moskowitz]

I am beginning to question the reason for Rants and Raves. I have been a supporter, but following the threads lately, I am beginning to see how few on the forum actually post in this section. There are a variety of other sites that would appeal to those inclinded to state their political opinions. To have a forum for a select few seems an inappropriate use of our site considering the amount of time it takes our moderators to police.

The most recent thread brought up serious questions that would make for great intellectual debate. Our country faces numerous problems and always has. It has not mattered who controlled the White House or Congress, the difficult issues that face our great country seem to be always there. There is enough blame to throw around everywhere. However, this forum seems to fail in its efforts for great and fair discourse.

I have supported the right for free speech and to allow our members to have an opportunity to discuss donuts to Washington. I am <span style="font-style: italic">beginning</span> to believe that others may have been right concerning this part of our forum. On top of this, a large percentage of the most vocal people on this site are not AACA members.

That being said, there are a lot of topics we could really discuss that are automotive related:

1. How do we attract younger members

2. How do we gain more members in the West and other places we are not represented.

3. What services are we not providing our members that you would want?

4. The magazine will change, what would YOU like to see?

5. Ideas for changing of our website, what features do you suggest.

6. How can we gain improve our meets?

7. Any new touring ideas?

8. How can we find the $$$ to support the Library, Museum and National?

9. How can we get the early cars out more?

10. How can I find more time in the day? Probably know the answer, stay off the site!

Five million other subjects but a favorite of mine is how can we get all the clubs and hobby magazines motiviated to protect our hobby. Take a look on mainstream TV. Shows such as the motorcycle shows, Overhaulin, Pimp my Ride, etc. are dominating the airwaves and drawing huge ratings. Where are we in the antique car hobby!

Anyway, this is just a personal thought and does not represent any feelings of our Board whatsoever....just my 2 cents.

[6219_Rules]

Thank you for your input, Steve. My frustration is abating a bit. I need a cold shower.

Pax vobis cum.

[Guest]

Steve, I like #2 [How do we gain more members in the West and other places we are not represented.]

Being a Baltimore boy for the first 57 years of my life and now a Westerner for almost 15, by choice, I think I am in a different position from most when it comes to viewing this problem.

Back in my presidential years, 1988 & 1989 [i leved in Baltimore then]I recognized that the West was under represented and began to try to do something about it. I had been pressing my fellow Board members for some years to hold at least every fourth year's summer Board of Directors Meeting in the Western Division. When I finally had the power to select the meeting site, I chose Wyoming in the year the Cheyenne group hosted a National Spring Meet.

I realized back in the late '80s that one of our problems was the attitude of some of our Eastern members where the West was concerned. One evening at a social gathering the subject of Western representation was being thrashed about when out of the blue one of the members present said, "What do we need the West for?" It pissed me off, and you can believe that out here a lot of members view that as being the attitude toward their part of the country.

When we go East to Meets and Tours we often ask people back there if they are going to come out to our Meet or Tour next year. Often the response is, "It's too far, we can't come all the way out there." You know, it is just as far for us to go there is it is for them to come here.

SO---HOW ABOUT SOME OF YOU PEOPLE BACK EAST COMING OUT TO DENVER IN 2005 FOR THE DUAL MEET [A GRAND NATIONAL AND THE WESTERN DIVISION MEET]! It's the same distance for you to come here as it is for me to go there.

It's BIG country out here and we just don't have states with a dozen or more regions like "back East." I don't think we will ever achieve those numbers out here, but it surely would be nice if we could grow a bit. I think under our new HQ leadership we will not be treated as poor relatives who you would just as soon not be bothered with. Steve and the Board care. Now if somebody smarter than I am just had some answers. How about an AACA Glidden Tour in the West. VMCCA does it.

All three [3] of AACA's National Tours in 2005 will be in Pennsylvania. That sends a message out here in the West.

Thanks for starting this thread Steve. Hopefully it will gather a following and if we are really lucky some jerk will not inject politics in here. If someone does will the moderators please wipe it out.

Howard Scotland

[Rawja]

You could get members through guilt.

Although I am already a member of the BCA and its Reatta Division and I don't own a car that's "old enough" I just signed up for the AACA.

I think one of the main problems of this hobby is the slave-ish devotion some have for the 400 point scoring system. The unintended result of which is cars trailered to events, rather than being driven and "restoration" expenses that are daunting to the less wealthy/less committed sectors of the population.

I don't drive a very old car, but I get approached fairly regularly by people with questions about it. I consider myself to be a self-appointed ambassador for the Reatta, and any time I am approached I answer all of their questions (even the idiotic ones) with enthusiasim and also make sure to tell them about the Reatta Discussion Board and how inexpensive obtaining one can be. If my car was locked away somewhere these exchanges simply wouldn't take place.

While I realize that the 400 point system has some theoretical value, I think for those who REALLY get into it it borders on a fetish, which turns off the less-obsessed.

The sucess of Rodding and Pimpin' and Rice-ing is to a great extent that it allows the enthusiasts of such things self expression and a low cost of entry.

The tedium and cost of doing a "proper" restoration on even the most mundane older car is more than most of the younger generation is willing to commit to end up with a car without A/C, killer stereo, etc.

A decent analogy would be ballroom dancing vs. the way anyone under 40 dances, with one you have proscribed, set steps and with the other you get to actually express yourself.

I hate to say this, but I don't have the foggiest notion of how our corner of the hobby can simultainously appeal to traditionalists and the "new breed" of car lovers who tend to see their cars as canvasses for their personal self-expression.

But it wouldn't hurt to take you older car out for a spin every now and then, points be dammned.

[Guest]

RajwaNYC ~ Having lived for years in a large eastern city I can understand why people hesitate to drive really old cars. It isn't much fun and can be downright dangerous. Been there and had the bejesus scared out of me doing it.

However, the premise that people do not drive high point older cars is not correct. Visit any AACA National Tour and see how many national prize winning cars are driven regularly on tours. My wife and I own four AACA Senior winners dating from 1924 to 1941 which have been driven on AACA and VMCCA National tours well in excess of 15,000 miles. We have a 1955 First Junior Winner that along with a 1940 Senior winner I used to own, were driven 4000 miles a few years to San Diego, up the coast to the Bay Area, driven on a Founders Tour and then back to Cheyenne. The 1940 was loaned to a friend who accompanied us on the trip.

As to the tediem of doing a proper restoration, the unwillingness to devote time to a project may be related to the era of Instant Gratification in which we live.

I'm not sure there is a solution to the hope of perpetuating the antique car hobby as it has evisted in the past. Times change, people and their ideas change and nothing lasts forever. AACA has had a good 70 year run. Will it be here at 100? I wonder.

hvs

[Dave@Moon]

I've posted my thoughts on a number of thiese questions many times now. I keep hoping to hear more people chiming in with ideas, or at least hearing from some of the old specters of the forum past that used to be hot and heavy into these topics and a never heard from any more.

I still think the answer to question number 1 is answering question number 9. I agree with Howard that driving a brass era or otherwise limited performance car is a harrowing experience, but it is possible under controlled circumstances and it brings results. Things I've only seen in museums I don't want. I want things I can play with, even if it's just in a park, parade, wedding procession, charity tour, mall promotion, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 7. Any new touring ideas? </div></div>

I've always wanted to ride a long beach road in an open car. There are many resort and park roads that'd be ideal for a tour. They're flat, have limited access/cross traffic, low speed limits, good traffic control, etc. and that's not to mention the scenery. Places like Presque Isle S.P. in PA and Island Beach S.P. in NJ would be almost ideal 1 day touring spots.

Also touring to a drive-in movie is the best. Reliving one of the ways people used to enjoy these cars in much the same way and in the same places can't be overstated. It's very different from the artificiality of most our contrived events. <span style="font-style: italic">(A word to wise, however, you'll need a portable FM radio to hear the movie. Also if you go there from a drive in restraunt, today's window trays <span style="font-weight: bold">won't</span> fit the think/framed glass of an antique car--yes, they gave me 2 new milkshakes last time! )</span>

Finally, touring--just do it! I don't hear of nearly as many tours as I used to even 10 years ago. Five day tours arranged around national schedules are nice, but it's the five guys with Packards that call each other up and run out to KFC and Picnic State Park on a whim that people see and that I don't see happening any more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 5. Ideas for changing of our website, what features do you suggest. </div></div>

A generic gallery of every type of car produced would be nice. You'd be suprised how hard it can be to find a decent picture of certain cars, and if we were able to provide a ready site for something like that it'd help put us on the map for the public at large. <span style="font-style: italic">(Costs and picture rights issues could be a problem, however.)</span>

[Steve Moskowitz]

Rawja, part of your concern has been addressed by our Class called DPC (Drivers Participation Class) and we also have the HPOF class for original cars. We try to meeet the needs of all types of hobbyists including those who have gone thru great efforts to restore their cars and deserve the recognition for the talent, research and hard work to bring these vehicles back to their original glory. Thanks for the membership!

Howard, sadly I have heard the same comments about past attitudes beyond our region. It certainly is not the attitude of our board now and we will do everything possible to increase our awareness in the West and other areas. It is a shame that tours in other areas of the country have been slow in coming. We sure have a lot of work to do.....

Dave, we have a far greater capacity to do things as you suggest. We recently leased two new servers in Texas and have increased our ability to maintain this site and increased capcacity about 9 fold. We will have a new look to the site and some new features in the next year.

[Ron Green]

Having a high point vehicle means you have pretty much worked your ass off for a few years especially if you do most of the work yourself. There is nothing wrong with that as some people enjoy it especially if you need something to do in the winter here in the northeast. Besides they start deteriorating immediately anyhow. It really doesn?t take that much more time to do them right.

And yes then can be driven as I just took my repeat Grand National senior car out Saturday night for a long drive and even ended up at a cruise night event Even got to see some very rare vehicles that were chopped up (55 Safari, Mercury?s, Caddy?s etc). The theory of driving your stock vehicle to expose the hobby no longer works in this area as very few seem interested The modified vehicles, hotrods and chopped creations are taking over for the most part.

Cruising at 70 mph in a 55 zone was downright dangerous as all passed me and I was run off the road twice. Going around an exit / entrance ramp marked 15 mph at 25 mph is a joke as the boneheads ride your bumper. For the most part this area is no longer safe driving an antique vehicle. If you own one that cannot make it above 50 mph or get to 70 mph in 4 seconds forget it.

I am getting tired of hearing the discussions on trailers and trailer queens. I travel thousands of miles a year going to shows and events. So in my opinion the vehicles are getting exposed to the public even if not driven to the event. Besides I don?t have the time to spend trying to clean it once there as I work 50 hours a week. My antique insurance like everyone else?s requires that the vehicle be locked up in a structure / trailer and not set out unattended overnight Check your policy in the fine print section, surprise!

I had a major failure related to the rear end of my Amphicar three weeks ago and I was 13 hours from home. Having only three wheels remaining I was glad to have a trailer. The car was promised for a charity event the following week that was advertised in the local papers. Money to be raised for a good cause and without the trailer and lots of thrashing it would have never made it. Enough preaching and venting.

[K8096]

I understand the reasoning behind having a DPC class, but the way it was set up at Hershey last year didnt make sense in my opinion. I saw a 1947 Cadillac fastback parked next to a 1914 Model T parked next to a 1960's GM sedan. That makes no sense. Those 3 cars have absolutley nothing in common. Why not just park the DPC cars in with the regular show cars & place a "Do Not Judge" sign on them. To me, it seems more logical to look at a "driver" Model T among other show car Model T's, not cars from the 1960's, and vice versa. If I were to bring a "driver" to Hershey, I think I would just register it for judging so I could be parked around other cars similar to mine, and when the judges came around I'd just tell them not to judge it. What do you guys think?

[Guest]

Having been retired from judging for 2 years now, I am not up on the latest procedures. However, as I understand the DPC class those cars are evaluated by a team of judges and either certified or not. If they were mixed in with the cars being point judged for awards, the DPC judges would have a heck of a time locating the cars they are to certify.

The current system has been carefully studied and it has been decided that the best procedures have been followed. They won't satisfy everbody, but then nothing in life ever does. Heck we have people who wanted the field set up so that all Packards were together and the same for Buicks, Cadillacs, Dodges etc. Then there have been those who wanted all cars grouped by color, convertible or sedan and maybe even alphabetically by make or by owner's name.

The judging committee worked hard on this and have come up with a workable system. Maybe having a '55 Cadillac next to a '14 T will cause people to realize that all kinds and years of cars can be drivers. I would have no problen putting my '14 Buick next to someone's GTO. They both are drivers.

I have always found AACA to be rather flexible in where a car can be entered by the owner. It can be entered for point judging or placed in the same class location as a Do Not Judge car. That option is right on the registration card. Just telling the judges not to judge your car after you have entered it for judging just complicates their job. All judging sheets are cross checked in the administration office against registrations to see that no cars are missed. Don't short circuit the system.

You may have a car that qualified for HPOF, but at your option it may may be initially entered in DPC, HPOF, Do Not Judge or Judging. You just can't randomly select your spot from meet to meet. After certain awards or certifications are achieved, you must then remain in that judging category.

hvs

[1937hd45]

Steve, I've stopped posting on Rants and Raves non automotive threads,thanks for starting this one. I've never toured west of eastern Pennsylvania, but there is nothing I'd like to to better that drive throughout the West. I think a drive along Route 12 in Utah should be mandatory. I don't know how well a pre 1930 car would do on a tour out there, lots of space from stop to stop. I don't know if anyone reading this knows what a "Rat Rod" is, but they sure have allowed a lot of younger people into the Hot Rod part of the hobby. Too bad the "Antique" part of the hobby doesn't have a counterpart. An as found, barn find that was made serviceable should draw a crowd. How about a "Grapes of Wrath" Tour? Safe, drivable cars that look like the cars that made the depression era migration to California?.............p.s. saw this postcard and thought of you.

[K8096]

I used to own a HPOF car. You mean after I got the HPOF, I wouldn't be allowed to enter it as a "Do Not Judge" and have it parked with the regular show cars?

I wasn't aware the DPC was a judged class, I thought it was exhibition only. At Hershey last year, it seemed like no one was even looking at the DPC cars because they were parked way at the end of the show field and it almost seemed like they weren't a part of the show, or an afterthought. I understand there are space limitaions, ect, that are beyond AACA control. I guess what I'm getting at is if I were to bring a car & didn't want it judged, I'd rather park it with the regular show cars becuase I would feel more "part of the action" than being parked way at the end of the field in no man's land.

[Guest]

Bob ~ It is really great touring country in the West. Open spaces, less traffic than in the East and people who will help you out if you break down. Instead of trying to run you into the ditch if you are not driving 80MPH they will generally just calmly go around. Of course the lack of traffic makes that easier when there is nobody pushing them. Unfortunately 80MPH semis will blow you off the road out here just like in the East, so we recommend staying off of the interstate.

When touring in open country in early cars I would recommend going in pairs or even small groups. That way there is someone you know with you to go for help if needed. However in this era of cell phones and AAA there is no need to ever get stuck in the "outback" no matter how far you are out of a towm. I have had AAA bring me and my brass car home on a rollback while on tour on more than one occasion. I recommend the 100 mile towing memberships for a few bucks more, because that will always get you back to the HQ hotel on a tour or to a large town if you are out driving alone.

It is not unusual for Dan Binger to call me and suggest that we go drive our '14 Buicks and then go somewhere to eat. When I lived in Baltimore, that would have been impossible.

We would love to have all of you folks from back east come out here to visit. Just don't plan to stay and add to the population. Someone said I tried to lock the gate behind me when I entered Wyoming 14 years ago. Well---look at it this way. There are more people in metropolitan Baltimore on public assistance that the total population of Wyoming. We like it that way. One congressman---any more than that is overkill.

hvs

[1937hd45]

K8096, I liked HPOF when it had a pre 1940 or whatever it was cutoff. Might be nice if they had it setup in chronological order at the large meets.The DPC class is just a parking spcae close to the action in my opinion. If I wanted to enter my 1912 T whick can't earn a 3rd in judging I'd park it in its class as a "Do Not Judge". Otherwise it looks like a 1912 T at the Saturday Cruse Nite among the '50's Chevies.

[K8096]

Thank you, 1937HD45, I glad someone else out there sees it my way.

[Guest]

I must say I agree with 1937 and his evaluation of the DPC, but I have tried to remain open minded about something which interests me not in the least.

My previous post was intended for basic clarification only, and not as a defense of anything, or an attempt to clarify all of the judging rules, guidelines and procedures. If you want to know what you can and cannot do regarding movement of vehicles in and out of various categories, HPOF, DPC etc, contact the judging committee for information.

Maybe I should extend my physical retirement from judging to a mental and emotional departure from it as well.

hvs

[K8096]

I think the original cutoff for HPOF was 45 yrs of age for the car. I know in 1997 when I took a 1950 Cadillac 61 series coupe I barely made it in. Now they let newer cars in & a majority of the cars in HPOF seem to be post war.

[D Binger]

Steve,

You have asked about how to get more members in the West. Why don?t you ask what AACA is doing wrong in the west as far as membership goes? The answers might not be what some want to hear.

Howard mentioned attitude of folks from the East toward the West. I have heard comments like that also. I have had a GOOD AACA members from back around the Hershey area tell me that since I did not win my 1st jr, Sr and 1st grand national in the East or at Hershey, it shouldn't count. Hmmmmmmm Nice comment, huh? I know that this is only one persons thought, but others that heard it might not know that.

I have tried to get a couple of regions started in this part of the country but have met with the same question and feeling. What can AACA do for us that we are not doing ourselves? We don?t need the Eastern folks to tell us what to do. Here again is that attitude thing.

Most of the AACA members in this part of the country belong to AACA for one reason - - -they have to in order to belong to the local club. We were talking at a local meeting several months ago and this was brought up because some committee person from national sent a form letter to all the clubs about how national was going to help us with our problems. We didn?t know we had a problem until we got this letter. I then asked how many there knew who the AACA National President was and no one knew, I also found out that no one cared.

Touring in the west is great. Yon can drive most places without a major traffic problem and in most cases you can find a parking place and leave your car for a few minutes and not be worried about it. The AACA membership for the most part does not support tours in this part of the country. A number of years ago there was a region in Wyoming hosted a divisional tour and only two people from other parts on the country even asked about it. Now the Divisional tour in Reno has been canceled, not sure for what reason. There are other clubs that have tours in this part of the country and do well with them Clubs like VMCCA, HCCA, CHVA have all had or are going to have big tours in this part of the country. AACA seems to play up trophies and only give a little press to tours. Folks out here see this and what kind of message does this give?

I still think that you should ask what AACA is doing wrong in the West instead of what they need to do.

Dan Binger

Cheyenne, Wyoming

[Steve Moskowitz]

Ouch, wrote a long reply and got knocked off the computer. Here goes a shorter version:

1. Howard your answer was correct. In a large meet it would be very difficult for judges. Can we find a better way? Maybe, as such, I will bring it up to the Judging Committee. We have not heard this complaint at any roundtable to my knowledge.

2. Dan, sure I could have phrased it differently but the answers will still come out the same. There will always be people who are misguided in their thinking, but the majority of the Eastern contingent are supportive of the all regions of the country. The board and I want to build value into the membership and have many, many new ideas and initiatives being worked on. We are taking the West Coast very seriously and want to reach out. Stay tuned. In the meantime, let me know and thoughts you have.

[24T42]

Steve,

I would like to see this thread moved out of Rant 'n Raves and into the main forum. I think there are some important issues here that concern the core of the club and don't need to be discussed here in Rants 'n Raves, which has became a political dumping ground and cesspool.

Judy Edwards

#250702L

[Guest]

Judy ~ Amen to the move and double Amen to the cesspool.

hvs

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The theory of driving your stock vehicle to expose the hobby no longer works in this area as very few seem interested The modified vehicles, hotrods and chopped creations are taking over for the most part. </div></div>

I think Ron's observation should be reversed, and that people aren't interested in authentic cars because they don't (have a chance to) look at them. It may take more than one viewing to attract the intrest of the hard-core hot-rodder, but it's the neophytes encountered on the way that get the the message in the most furtive manner.

Look closely at the photo gallery in this link from Samb2's post ( Worlds biggest - something for you to visit? ) on the AACA General forum. There are about 100 pictures of the 2003 show there.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check this place!

Have been there tree times. NICE!!!

http://www.bigmeet.com/ </div></div>

Where are all the bald guys? Where's all the grey hair? (O.K., one guy in a '57 Firedome, but where's the rest?) Why does everybody have a good-looking young woman with them, and often a couple of kids? The average age in this crowd appears to be about 35, with <span style="font-weight: bold">no</span> disproportionate interest by the younger members (of even this young crowd) in the modified cars (about 1/3 the show). Granted these are all 50's and 60's cars, but still there are almost no people pictured who old are enough to remember these cars as new in the photos.

The show's in Sweden. Have you ever seen a (privately) trailered car in Europe? Financially there it it almost impossible to justify the private ownership of a truck capable of towing a trailed car. I have a an in-law in Germany who owns a 4000 lb. sailboat, which mandated at that time the purchase of one of only two cars available in Germany with a 5000 lb. tow rating. When I asked him about buying a pickup truck or SUV to do it, I was told that the taxes/fees and insurance costs would be more than the truck.

I still say drive 'em or we'll all lose 'em!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Moderators....if you want to move this thread to the big tent, be my guest. Your call, but IF it did get some lively discussion going it could be a great thread.

[24T42]

The question of East vs. West does not just pertain to just the AACA. I also belong to the national Horseless Carriage Club of America, which is based in California. Most of their artivities are Western, including tours. Granted they are a lot smaller, but the problem is the same just reversed.

[Guest imported_klb]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> On top of this, a large percentage of the most vocal people on this site are not AACA members. </div></div>

Well here's an idea Steve.

Restrict reading and posting in the Rants and Raves to AACA members.

Then strictly enforce the posting of Auto only subjects in the rest of the site.

It'd certainly be interesting to see how many non-members would pop for the membership fee just so they could post a non-automotive area.

[nearchoclatetown]

Steve, this was discussed last year after Hershey. I, or one, would like to see the original, I guess that's HPOF, cars beside the restored cars. According to Hemmings, some of the Corvette crowd think they own the word "Survivor". What better documentation do you have for a "correct" restoration then an original sitting beside it? Ron Green, I have a feeling we were at the same cruisein Sat. night. When I take the '24 DB, like Sat. I always have lots of questions ask. Things like, are the wheels really wood? Or where are the front brake drums? I think there is interest in old original cars there, but most have had Muscle cars and that's all they understand. I think it would be great for a bunch of us locals to at least meet and park original AACA cars at a cruisein. Maybe take the Museum Mustang and sell some raffle tickets.

[Rick Hoover]

Hi Judy,

You're right and we had the same feelings in the VCCA many years ago when I was apart of that. California was too far away and we had very little representation. When we did hear from them, it was only to be told what we could and couldn't do as a region. We did our own thing back then and had a ball doing it.

Having just come back from Cheyenne and getting to meet some other AACA members there, they all seem to feel the same way. They are having a blast and don't need to be told how to do it. So, I understand what Dan Binger is saying on this issue. I also feel and have faith that Steve is the guy that will hear them more clearly.

Steve, You already have a great thread going here. I certainly understand why you had to start it the way you did. I rarely look in on this R&R section because of those reasons. I agree that this should be moved out of this basement and up to the General Forum where it should receive better input.

Rick

[Buicks Rule]

With respect to building participation in the West, both Howard and Dan have made some good points. I think we all know that distances are further out here in the west, but just for fun I did a little comparison between driving distances from Tucson, where I?ve lived for 20+ years to the National Meets in our region, vs the driving distances from my home town Akron, Ohio to other National Meets/Activities available within the same one way driving radius.

The following regions have hosted multiple meets since 1988 and are included with their one way driving distance from Tucson rounded roughly to the hundred. If I?ve forgotten a region, I apologize.

Cheyenne 1100 miles

Laramie 1100 miles

Palm Springs 400 miles

San Diego 400+ miles

San Jose Cal 1000 miles

Denver 1000 miles

Tucson, Arizona 0 miles

LA ( 1 meet ) 500 miles

Because of the distances involved, only a small group of people from any one of these chapters can make the commitment to travel to any of the other meets in the western region. And, it is those same people who travel to their neighboring meet who encourage their own region to host a future meet. The same folks have put on a LOT of meets in the past 15 years.

The bottom line is that in the Western Region, even attending both meets in our region each year involves at least one trip of at least 1000 miles each way. Whether driving or trailering, vacation time, fuel cost, lodging along the way are high due to the distances.

Now, let?s look at distances from my hometown of Akron, Ohio.

Akron to Melbourne Florida 1000 miles.

Akron to Boston, MA?600-700 miles

Akron to St. Louis MO?600 miles

Akron to Denver Colorado 1300 miles

Within that same 1000 mile one way driving distance, from north east Ohio, I can pretty much get to every AACA National meet, in every region except for the Western Region, every year.

So, whether showing a car, attending to judge, or just attending for fun and fellowship, a mid-western member may attend pretty much 8 out of 10 AACA National Meets every year without driving further to any one meet that many western region members have to drive to their ?closest? meet. Members in the mid-west/east have a lot more opportunities to get involved, experience a National Meet. So, meets back there are larger, etc?. Even dropping the radius down to 500 miles, still a healthy day?s drive in an antique car ( even one from the 60?s ) or in a trailer, still gives 4 to 6 meets per year to choose from.

So, let?s say you are an enthusiastic AACA Member/Restorer/Judge who would like to show a car and hopefully have it be deemed worthy of an AACA First Junior, Senior and Preservation Awards. If all goes well, and the car wins each award on its first attempt for that award, it?s very doable for a mid-western member to hit 3 meets in the same calendar year without going over that 1000 mile radius from home ever, and often driving quite a bit less.

On the other hand, the Western Region Member will very likely ONLY be able to hit 2 meets within that 1000 mile radius in one calendar year. So, that means at least a 2 year commitment for a car to get to the Preservation level where it can then be enjoyed/driven a bit more for fun, unless the owner wants to try Grand National level competition which means keeping the car ?perfect? a while longer.

I know that some cars have qualified even up to Grand National First and Grand National Senior Level while being driven to all meets. I know some of the folks that have done it. But I think it is a fair statement to say that it is pretty difficult for a car driven any significant distance to achieve these successes.

So, what to do. Now you?re going to figure out I do something with mathematics for a living.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to look at the past 5 or 10 years, select some fairly active chapters/regions across the country and see how many national meets per year were within a 500 mile radius, or a 1000 mile radius of that active chapter/region.

Yes-it is a chicken or the egg question. Does having a lot of National Activities within 1 day?s drive motivate more people to join chapters and get involved in AACA or does having large, active chapters encourage attendance at National Activities closeby?

I suspect that the statistics will show that the average distance a western region member must drive to participate in a national meet IN THEIR REGION is significantly less that that of a member of any other region.

Here?s a thought. There are areas in the western region that already have an AACA Chapter/Region that might be a good location for a National Meet but whose members just haven?t participated and so aren?t comfortable taking on a meet.

The Buick Club of America?s Buick Driving Enthusiasts Division has an interesting way of planning their National Tours. The leadership, in consultation with active members, chooses where the group would like to go and if there is no one local to that area, a small group of experienced tour leaders visits the area, selects the hotel, visits the sites, plans and dry runs the routes.

Let?s say that AACA BOD decides that Santa Fe would be a good spot for a National Meet since it?s a day?s drive for Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, Cheyenne, Laramie.

Maybe Steve or someone else experienced in planning/hosting National Meets could fly out to Albu/Santa Fe, visit the local chapter or if there isn?t one, try to get the local AACA members to meet together to solicit volunteers for some of the staffing. Maybe some of the other folks that are active Nationally would be willing to be Chief Judge, registration chairman and handle some of the other jobs where prior meet experience is necessary.

Yes, this does mean that National would be taking on a very active role in making these meets happen. And that would be a major change in the way things are done. There?s certainly no reason to do something like this for those areas of the country that have a waiting list of chapters wanting to host National meets.

So?????

Al

AACA # 253060

BCA# 9160

BDE# 51

[D Binger]

Al,

I agree with you on the distance. It is a problem, but most of us in the West understand this and have learned to live with it. Your idea of a central location for a meet is ok, but that would be fine for one time. You still would not get the folks in the west to attend. The last three meets held here in Cheyenne I noticed that we only had a very very small percentage of our members enter vehicles and over half of the ones who didn?t enter vehicles did not even come out to look at the cars. At the Denver meet several years ago the one region only 50 miles away didn?t have any vehicles registered and another region one hundred miles away had only about seven or eight. You were on the divisional tour in Ft. Collins right after the meet in Denver that was hosted by the Buzzard?s Breath Touring Region. (Buzzard? Breath Touring Region is a non-geographical region) Did you realize that only one vehicle was registered from Ft.Collins and two from Denver? I don?t think that the distance thing is that big of a factor. There are other things that are the problem.

Rick mentioned the word representation. The West has not had much in the way of representation since Lloyd Riggs was National President. Sure we have had folks from this area on the board but some of them hurt things more that they helped. There are more problems that are going to be a little difficult to correct. They stem from incidents that happened sometime ago. I hesate to say what these problems are on the forum.

Touring and driving our cars here in the west is not a problem. Al, you saw the kind of driving we did on that tour we had in Ft Collins. That is the kind of Sunday outings we have all the time. I did the drive we made to Estes Park on the tour a few weeks ago just for the fun of it.

Dan

By the way Al, I have over 600 miles on that 14 Buick this year so far and there is still a lot of summer left

[Steve Moskowitz]

Doug, Rick, Dan, etc. Thanks for the input, be assured that I have emailed our directors and asked them to read this thread. I am warming up to the idea of trying to find a way to intersperse the HPOF/DPC cars within the class structure. Off the top of my head, it seems awfully difficult to do at a 400+ car meet. We would be asking an awful lot of the certification teams for these two classes. However, we have a great Judging Committee that if filled with very experienced people and maybe they can give this some thought.

Doug...the housewarming gift. Ahhh, it was appreciated but I think the pie is an acquired taste. As for the jar of chow-chow, I am anxiously awaitng the opportunity to serve it to guests from the Chicago area. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Ron Green]

nearcholatetown,

Sounds like we were both at the Soda Jerk cruise in last Saturday. The chopped Safari wagon is lost for good along with many other vehicles I saw there. Your right we should meet and park the orginial cars together. It would be a small gathering.

I was parked alongside a 55 Mercury Montclair that was resting on the ground, had Chevy taillights cut in and I'm unsure as to what car parts were used for the front grille and a 350 Chevy motor of course. I left early as they started circling my 55 like buzzards commenting on various methods that could be used for street rodding it.

[Guest]

Al and others,

I have been thinking about this distance problem long before the subject came up here, for years in fact.

The United States is a BIG country. The AACA was born in Pennsylvania and spread westward. As things spread they thin out. Pour a bucket of water on the floor and notice how it becomes less dense as it moves to the outer edges. I think the same condition applies to AACA. The further you are from the source the less of the basic product exists. It's nobody's fault, it just the way things are.

The same condition exists in the East when the Clubs began in the West, as pointed out by Rick Hoover. There are probably some things that we can never bend to our will no matter how we try. Maybe a little more attention to the West would help and probably engender warmer feelings, but you just aren't going to make a Pennsylvania or Florida out of Wyoming or Arizona, where the growth of AACA is concerned.

Distance is a major factor. So are population density and attitudes. I don't believe that the pecentage of people in the West who are interested in 400 point restorations is as great as it is in the East. I am in Cheyenne and there is a National Meet right out here in the Western Division next weekend and it's only 1300 miles away in Santa Rosa California. I doubt that anyone from Wyoming will be there. It will be a small meet with no flea market. In contrast, Hershey is 1700 miles from here. Look what you get for another 400 miles.

Those are some of the reasons I believe AACA will never grow in the West. We can improve attitudes and relationships, but geography and history will be almost impossible to overcome. Maybe we should be realistic, smile and accept that east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. My apologies Rudyard.

hvs

[1937hd45]

Steve, I'd like to see HPOF cars displayed in the class along with restored versions. At a large meet like Hershey could the first time HPOF cars be parked together and be inspected, once they are certified as HPOF the following year they could be parked in the proper class.

[Bob Kinker]

I like the HPOF class the way it is. Makes it easier to find them when they are all in one place! I enjoy looking at the HPOF & DPC most. My 2 cents!

[Dave@Moon]

I agree with Bob, and enjoy having the HPOF and DPC cars separate from their judged kin. It's just an aesthetic thing, but having an area where there's a diverse mix of disparate car types makes for a more interesting experience. It also helps express our diversity better, making for a more cohesive group. But that's just me (some would say that 2 cents is overcharging on that account!).

[nearchoclatetown]

Steve, try heating that pie and maybe going with some whipped cream on top. A big glass of cold moo helps, too. It's great for breakfast. As for the chow-chow, I was never that hungry. And BTW, now that it's official, you better change your profile.

[Buicks Rule]

Howard and Dan

We missed you and Judy and Judy on the Founder's Tour but know it was unavoidable. Glad everything turned out healthwise OK.

That trip up to Estes Park in Dan's 14 Buick is still one of the most fun things I have ever done! My high school students hear about it and are surprised that any one would drive a car that old on that long a trip. They think it's WAY COOL!!! and are shocked that an almost 100 year old BUICK can cruise up a pretty rigorous climb with the style and reliability that makes a BUICK a BUICK!

Howard-water's density depends I believe on it's mineral concentration and it's altitude above sea level ( think I learned that in a physics class somewhere . Like any liquid when poured out in an environment where it will remain a liquid, water will eventually form uniformly thin sheet of water.

Maybe you've locked the gates to WY but the mid west and the east are moving into Phoenix, Tucson and Vegas in thousands of people per month. But as you know, AZ, NM, UT, and sort of CA have developed so differently than MI, OH, PA, FL and so forth.

How to increase participation in the West is an incredibly tough question. It's like how do we get more young people involved in the hobby. The power of this forum is we can all share ideas and maybe out of pieces and parts contributed by many of us, AACA leadership will find some things that prove useful.

The west is DIFFERENT. I absolutely agree. There are things we probably cannot change, and things we probably should not change but I do think that it will probably take a different type of logistical support from National to 'grow the west.' I don't know what that looks like.

Not only have almost all western meets in the past 10+ years been hosted by the chapters that I mentioned yesterday, many of the folks that have stepped up to the plate and taken on the jobs are largely the same people, every show. There is going to come a time when Hannah and Whit, Frank and Helen, Erik and Belva, Bill, Howard and Judy, Dwight and Fran, Dan and Judy and many of the other folks that westerners will recognize won't be able to DO the jobs they have done for meet, after meet, after meet. And, they often would love pass their knowledge and the job on to a new person but there aren't any takers.

In an eastern chapter of 100-300 active families, when 1/3 of the membership helps ( or even shows up ) for an event that's a lot of help and a lot of experience. In a chapter of 10-20 active families that's only 6 to 10 people to do a heck of a lot of work. So, many of the folks that volunteer once, just won't do it again.

Growing up in Akron, Ohio, from Mother's Day until Labor Day, I could pretty much attend one ( sometimes two ) car show each weekend located within 60 miles of my home. Every little town had some type of annual car show that would draw between 100 and 400 cars-some modified but most stock. Most of the time the drive out was all 2 lane road or country highway. And, as I recall you didn't see the very same cars at each show. It's very easy for someone to get hooked on the cars, the people and happen upon a car to buy, happen upon an AACA member ( or a herd of AACA members, or BCA members, or POCI members, or ??? ), start socializing with them at shows and get involved in their local chapter. Inter chapter/inter region friendships flourish because so many active people saw each other so often, even though chapter/region members of a give region only had responsibilities for one event.

Building participation in the West won't be easy, and it probably won't be a result of one thing. It'll take some trial and error. The West is DIFFERENT. We have huge population centers, separated by miles of a sometimes hostile environment.

I agree that anyone in the west that goes to meets is aware of the distance but I'm not sure than many of the eastern folks are. I love your Hershey example. And, when you go back to Hershey from Cheyenne everyone from the east recognises "wow that's a long trip." Probably following with " I really want to take a trip out west someday but it's such a long trip." But, I bet many of those same people would not recognize that the trip to the Western Region Fall Meet in Santa Rosa is virtually the same trip as Cheyenne to Hershey for both Howard and I.

Even though I knew about the distance, what really brought home to me in a very personal way how far that 1000 miles to a meet is was the analogy to Vero Beach. Like everyone else in the Rust Belt, my family went to FL ( Vero) for winter vacation. Even someone desperate to get out of the cold and snow would be thought a little odd if they decided to leave NE OH Wednesday morning, driving even a modern car, arriving in Vero Beach either late Thursday or early Friday; spending Friday afternoon through Saturday afternoon on the beach. Then leaving FL either Sat Night or Sunday morning to be back at work in OH by Tuesday morning. Even odder would be to leave Thursday morning, drive all day Thurs/Fri, enjoy the Beach on Saturday and head back to get to work on Monday.

It would take a really good salesperson to sell this "vacation" to a spouse or family, especially one that doesn't like the beach (car shows, or car tours or other car events).

But that's exactly what Western Region members must do if they want to be active.

Some of you know the Buick National was in Dallas Texas this year. That's 1000 miles from Tucson. A very well known, knowledgeable Mid-West Buick and AACA person who shall remain nameless and I were talking at the meet. He was very proud that he had driven his car around 1200 miles to the show. When I said "I drove 1000," his comment was something on the order of "but Tucson's out west." "You're just a couple of hundred miles from Dallas." He truly had no clue that there are 700 miles of TEXAS between El Paso and Dallas plus 300 miles of AZ/New Mex between Tucson and Dallas. The Tucson BCA Chapter had either 13 or 18 members at the Dallas meet and that was the second or third largest chapter contingent their after the host chapter.

A very common reason why BCA friends did not come to the Dallas meet from the mid west was " It's too far." OH/PA/IN to Dallas sounds FAR to someone from the midwest. Tucson to Dallas sounds CLOSE to the same people.

I am very grateful that the AACA folks in Santa Rosa stepped forward to host a meet. The same for the BCA Dallas folks that also stepped forward to host a meet. I truly hope the rumored Denver Dual Grand National/National happens in 2005. My comments are NOT intended to be a cricism of the members of any of these or any other regions. I can't go to Santa Rosa but I'm hoping the schedule for Denver will work out.

No matter where we live, "some" meets just end up being quite far away but in the western region, unless your own region hosts the meet, it's "always" at least a 500 mile trip, and "almost always" a 1000 mile trip.

Maybe adjusting the months of the meets would help. California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada all have lots of desert to cross, as does west Texas. It gets HOT starting in May and it stays HOT until October. Monsoon Storms out of the Baja Gulf that sometimes actually bring real rain to the southwest deserts are very violent and often have lots of blowing dust. Think sandblaster.

For Tucson let's call hot 100-101, and that pretty much describes late May through Sept/Oct. Heading toward California for about 400 miles, increase the Tucson temp by 5-15 degrees, heading east through New Mexico, drop it by 5-10 degrees-for about 400 miles headed toward TX, make it 700 headed toward Denver/Cheyenne.

Yeah, I know, It's a dry heat

Guess this would be about 10 cents instead of 2.

Al

[ronbarn]

I am glad this was moved. I have stopped looking at the R&R and would have missed this thread.

Al, your idea regarding picking a location and taking the meet or tour there can work. Many years ago I wrote a proposal for the AACA Board entitled "Exporting AACA Meets". The proposal at that time did not specifically address tours, but the same thought applies. The concept considered the problem that there are AACA members and in some cases a region origanization in remote locations that would like to participate, i.e. Hawaii, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Alaska, far NW US etc. Because of their distance, is was just prohibitive to travel to the normal meet/tour locations. The idea was to take a team of AACA judges to the area, give an extensive judging school and host an AACA National Meet for the limited numbers of vehicles that qualify. The idea was enthusiastically endorsed by a few who indicated that they would love to have a good excuse to travel to some of these locations and work with the AACA members for this "exported" event. Unfortunately, at the time the proposal went over like a T___ in a punch bowl! I could not generate enough enthusiasm on the Board for even serious consideration.

Since that time there has been a couple of interesting events. Sally and I (I was still on the Board at that time) were invited to visit the Costa Rica Region to give a judging school and presentation about AACA. Joe and Fran Vicini and Randy and Rita Rutherford had a similar experience in Puerto Rico. The reception we all had during these trips proved that the concept was valid. Still the proposal fell on deaf ears (at least as far as know - I've been off the Board now for several years). The prevaling consensus was that a local active region or chapter was need to host an event.

The Marmon Club is very small (under 300 members internationally) and does not have any chapters. We do very much like Al indicated the BCA does. We select a location and solicit members who are in the area, or reasonably near (in some cases a few hundred miles away) to set up our Annual Marmon Musters. They select the host hotel, select and check good tour routes, arrange a schedule to include the activities we traditionally have for the Muster and handle registration. This works well and we have had many very successful Musters in Ohio, Indiana, California, New Hampshire, and this year in Alabama (guess who is hosting that one). Now before someone says that will only work for a small club, I say Bull!

The same concept can work for AACA. If members live too many miles from the "tradional" meet and tour locations, take the meet and/or tour to them. You may be surprized to find that attendence at some of these remote locations may be very attractive to members who would like to see something different. Think about it!

[Buicks Rule]

Ron

Good to hear from you and Sally.

One thing, the BCA National Meet is handled pretty much the same as the AACA. National BOD waits for chapters to submit bids from which the BOD selects a location.

It's the Buick Driving Enthusiasts Division of the BCA--think Buzzies who own Buicks--that decides where the BDE National Tour will be and then does what is necessary to bring the Tour to that location. The Motto of the BDE is "BUICKS WERE MADE TO BE DRIVEN." The tours generally fill up regardless of the location.

The 5 day BDE Tour to Bartlesville OK a few years ago was planned by 3 to 5 people that live in Florida or Michigan. The planners spent a couple of days on site the preceeding year and locked everything in from home.

Is there any reason any such traveling planning/execution committee would have to be restricted to current AACA board members or that the same committee would have to do every meet/tour that is taken on the road so to speak? I'll bet there are active AACA members that have been heavily involved in hosting meets/tours that might NOT be on the BOD and have the time and interest to see this work. Maybe some retired board members ( Hint Ron, Hint! ). There are a bunch of active people in AACA that know they can't make the time commitment to board service but they have a wealth of experience in showing/touring and love to visit new areas of the country.

AACA has been very proactive in developing new classes to encourage more cars to attend more meets, Driver's Participation Class, HPOF, the special classes for Muscle Cars. AACA has done a lot to encourage 2 National meets per year in the Western Region. The commitment to having 2 Western Meets per year has made it possible for small western chapters to host a National Meet. That's a good thing!

Unlike the VMCCA mentioned earlier, the BCA was founded in California and still has a large membership base there, but for the most part the largest and most active chapters ( leading the largest National Meets) are located around the Great Lakes area.

The Dallas Group hosted a great 2004 BCA National Meet this June. Slightly less than 200 cars attended. The Great Lakes Region will have a meet around Pittsburgh this month. It will be interesting to see how many cars attend that. I'm betting on 400.

The BCA's Western National Meets have been 1985 Los Angeles, 1991 Sacramento; 1993 Phoenix, 1996 Dallas, 2004 Dallas. Sacramento was a 400 car meet, the others were roughly 200 cars. It is very difficult for a smaller western chapter to successfully bid for a BCA National Meet against a mid western chapter as it's pretty much a given that the mid-western meet will be 400+ cars and the western meet will be 200- cars. The BCA has 1 National meet per year.

So, in comparison AACA has shown a pretty strong commitment to the Western Region.

Al

[48LCCOUPE]

I for one supported the contiuance of R&R, as I believe in free speech. What some people don't seem to believe in is free listening and hearing. This is a good thread Steve and I withdraw my support for the keeping of R&R since only two or three views are ever expressed by the two or three that do not listen and have a lot of time on their hands. Kudos to you for this thread. By the way this part of Florida is still standing tall uh, er flat, well we got thru the storm here in Central FL.