1912 Rambler Country Club Touring

[Leif in Calif]

$ 98,500, seems pretty high, but an amazing example for sure! Much more text in the ad...

https://www.prewarcar.com/565590-1912-rambler-country-club-touring

A marvelous, very original 50-hp Brass Era touring car, ex-Barney Pollard, in fine running order. In the 1950s Mr. Pollard loaned it for display in the Temrowski Museum in Michigan, but has never been truly ‘restored’ nor the body off the chassis, and retains to this day the original leather interior. All the wood is original and very solid. During his nearly forty years of ownership, the present caretaker has sorted the car meticulously, including fitting aluminum pistons. Veteran of numerous tours in the Midwest and up and down the East Coast, the car starts instantly on the original hand-crank system; it is such an easy automobile to fire up that no self-starter is needed! Its owner describes it as “a real woofer that will run with anything.”

 

[KiwiFord]

Seems to be no shortage of greed in the old car hobby lately… some of the prices are astronomical!

 

I’ll await the ensuing slap down… but I fear for the future of the hobby. It’ll turn into a hobby for the rich only and more and more cars are getting sucked up into museums.

 

Without young blood the hobby will die. 

Edited May 7 by KiwiFord (see edit history)

[edinmass]

KiwiFord………what is your point? It seems overpriced to you? I actually thought it was exactly what an asking price I would have come up with. 50hp 1912 cars are much more desirable and expensive than a 1914. It’s another league of car. This era Ramblers are fast, reliable, and desirable. Find a comparable car……….which would be very difficult…..for any number under 125k.

[John Bloom]

2 hours ago, KiwiFord said:

I fear for the future of the hobby. It’ll turn into a hobby for the rich only and more and more cars are getting sucked up into museums.

 

Without young blood the hobby will die. 

The "hobby" has entry price points for just about everyone at all levels economically.  A beautiful 4 door 60's sedan loved by a family for 60 years.......they are out there for 5K.  A late 60's MG that runs and needs some tinkering.......again, 5K.

Dietrich bodied 12cyl Packard coupes?  Duesenbergs? Early Ferrari's with race provenance?  Very early high horsepower cars like the one in question.................They are a thin slice of the cars available to us in the hobby, and they will be owned by people who aren't shopping for those 5K dollar cars.  There is something for everyone.  

I love this Rambler.

[trimacar]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

KiwiFord………what is your point? It seems overpriced to you? I actually thought it was exactly what an asking price I would have come up with. 50hp 1912 cars are much more desirable and expensive than a 1914. It’s another league of car. This era Ramblers are fast, reliable, and desirable. Find a comparable car……….which would be very difficult…..for any number under 125k.

I agree, and when I saw this car thought it was fairly priced, for a 50 HP car.  HUGE price point difference between average 25 HP cars and the 40 HP and up cars.  Is it out of reach for many people?  Yes, but that's just how economics works, some people have big scoops in the river of cash flowing by, some people have small scoops.  I can hold my scoop very easily as it's small!

[alsancle]

Funny,  I asked a friend the other day why it seemed so cheap given it is an early 50HP.  My guess was no polished brass?  I have a very rudimentary understanding of this market which is age, provenance, engine size determines value.

[58L-Y8]

To paraphrase Alfred Sloan: "A Rambler for Every Purse and Purpose". 

[alsancle]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:54 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

To paraphrase Alfred Sloan: "A Rambler for Every Purse and Purpose". 

Steve, there is no relation, correct?

[motoringicons]

A great 50HP car. I remember this car. An excellent value and reasonably priced. 

[58L-Y8]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Steve, there is no relation, correct?

A.J.:

Only a thin company thread: The original Rambler was built by the Thomas B Jeffery Company that had evolved from 19th century bicycle maker.   Common to many early carmakers, they progressed from single, two then four cylinders getting larger, more powerful and expensive with each new model.   When the company founder died, this son Charles carried on, decide to rename their all-new cars for 1914 the Jeffery in honor of his father. 

But that only lasted three years as Charles Jeffery decided to retire, selling out to Charlie Nash.  Nash had built a major career with various carriage and early carmakers including Buick, cornerstone General Motors.   Motivation to leave his position as President of General Motors in 1916 was a policy dispute with Billy Durant.   Automaking in his blood, the Jeffery Company being shopped and the where-with-all to do so, bought the company, slapped his name on it and the cars.  Fast-forward 37 years, Mason and Romney reached into company history for a name still associated with quality cars.  

Steve

Edited May 8 by 58L-Y8
syntax corrected (see edit history)

[DGPoff]

2 hours ago, motoringicons said:

A great 50HP car. I remember this car. An excellent value and reasonably priced. 

Show me another 50 hp brass era car under $100k!

 

There are none. 
 

I’d buy it, but I want a bit more. Silly big brass car guy with a dream.
 

 

Edited May 8 by DGPoff (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:35 AM, edinmass said:

KiwiFord………what is your point? It seems overpriced to you? I actually thought it was exactly what an asking price I would have come up with. 50hp 1912 cars are much more desirable and expensive than a 1914. It’s another league of car. This era Ramblers are fast, reliable, and desirable. Find a comparable car……….which would be very difficult…..for any number under 125k.

I completely agree with Ed's assessment.

Years ago on a Reliability Tour, I had the honor and privilege of driving Reggie Nash's Rambler. I've had some nice Brass-Era cars (1912 Oakland, 1914 Buick B-37, and now our 1915 Hudson SIX-40), and agree that this example is in an entirely different strata.

 

 Rare, powerful, properly presented, and apparently not for the "Tire-Kicker".

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

Steve, there is no relation, correct?

Sure, there is a relation !

[KiwiFord]

It’s not just a comment on this car, it’s a comment on the brass car hobby in general.  I thought my point was stated fairly obviously. As I said:

 

“I fear for the future of the hobby. It’ll turn into a hobby for the rich only and more and more cars are getting sucked up into museums.

 

Without young blood the hobby will die.”

 

I know I won’t find anyone to agree with me and I know you’ll think you are all far more learned than I. So I’ll leave it here. But if you ever wonder why there are so few young people around the brass car hobby that are not already connected to family cars… have a ponder on what I said. 
 

 

Edited May 9 by KiwiFord (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

Hello KiwiFord,

 

Economics, social re-engineering and the effect they are having on the demographics of our hobby.

 

This is an important topic in these times and it seems appropriate that a thread in the General Discussion Forum might be a good idea. 

 

Isn't it a separate larger general topic from the value of this or any particular car for sale?

 

The 1912 Rambler looks to be a fantastic survivor, the likes of which are few and far between, whether it gets toured or added to a museum; the marketplace will determine its current value at the end of the day.

 

Have you priced a well optioned new truck lately? I'd rather drive an old truck and have cars like this for the same money.  

 

As a younger person you will have a lot to choose from going forward no doubt so please inspire your younger friends to join in. 

 

No argument here, just my 10 cents worth, inflated from 2 cents.     

 

[Dr B]

6 hours ago, KiwiFord said:

 fear for the future of the hobby. It’ll turn into a hobby for the rich only and more and more cars are getting sucked up into museums.

 

Without young blood the hobby will die.”

Dear KiwiFord,

 

I think there are two important points here being made. First, the "other side" which is just pointing out the range of prices on collector cars in general and "better"  cars (however one wants to define them) bring stronger prices. Obviously true.

 

The second point, (yours and to some extent my concern) is that ALL collector cars prices are going up in general (some of it due to inflation, but I believe there are other factors such as costs of repair and restoration).  Most important, I believe they are going up due to the amount of money that is sloshing around among the "well-off/ rich" who are driving the prices of the "better" cars to astronomical levels. I see this as a reason that so many good brass cars seem to have such high prices (and many post-war sports cars). Yes, supply and demand drives the market. But when there is a group that can easily outspend the major of consumers, the market is skewed and the majority loses. There were always people with lots of money. Now there are a lot more of them!  I am also concerned about the number of outstanding cars that "disappear" into private collections never again to see the light of day in my lifetime.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Robert

Edited May 9 by Dr B (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Funny, except for the top 1/10 of one percent of collector cars I see the market coming down. The absolute peak was maybe 10 years ago.

[BobinVirginia]

Beautiful car! From the description, it sounds like a blast to drive. 

[1912Staver]

Seems like early car ownership ; that is one that actually drives and everything, is becoming more and more out of reach. Even black T's are now getting reasonably pricey in my area , and they are a car I don't even look twice at. Two on offer locally at the moment, a decent enough 17 touring , restored in the 1980's but unfortunately not driven since then for 15 K.  And a pretty decent, original condition 19 touring , running , driving for 10 K. { prices in Canadian peso's , that is what we earn in up here and that is what we have to spend in. } It is just as hard for a Canadian to earn $1000.00 Canadian as a U.S. person to earn $1000.00 U.S.D.  But when we go to spend in the U.S. our money trades at a deep discount. 

 I realize many can afford to spend this sort of money , but really, these are just black T's.

Price of admission raises sharply for anything Brass, and really sharply for anything in advance of a T. On the very rare occasion something 1915 or older is even for sale around here. Bringing a car into Canada from the U.S. gets very costly very quickly , so anyone of average means is more or less restricted to cars already in Canada for reasons mentioned above.

 

 

\

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[kar3516]

33 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Funny, except for the top 1/10 of one percent of collector cars I see the market coming down. The absolute peak was maybe 10 years ago.

Agreed.  Absolutely true.  Prices are generally going down a lot for big classics especially the less glamorous models such as sedans, victoria coupes, seven passenger touring sedans, etc.  In real dollars they are down far more.  A house that was $250K 10 years ago is now $900K in some places.  But that $75K car from 10 years ago is now $50K.  And all of those $50K dollars are worth far less elsewhere; especially when paying for restoration costs.  

[KiwiFord]

8 hours ago, Dr B said:

Dear KiwiFord,

 

I think there are two important points here being made. First, the "other side" which is just pointing out the range of prices on collector cars in general and "better"  cars (however one wants to define them) bring stronger prices. Obviously true.

 

The second point, (yours and to some extent my concern) is that ALL collector cars prices are going up in general (some of it due to inflation, but I believe there are other factors such as costs of repair and restoration).  Most important, I believe they are going up due to the amount of money that is sloshing around among the "well-off/ rich" who are driving the prices of the "better" cars to astronomical levels. I see this as a reason that so many good brass cars seem to have such high prices (and many post-war sports cars). Yes, supply and demand drives the market. But when there is a group that can easily outspend the major of consumers, the market is skewed and the majority loses. There were always people with lots of money. Now there are a lot more of them!  I am also concerned about the number of outstanding cars that "disappear" into private collections never again to see the light of day in my lifetime.

 

Just my $0.02

 

Robert

I agree completely and well put 

[KiwiFord]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

Funny, except for the top 1/10 of one percent of collector cars I see the market coming down. The absolute peak was maybe 10 years ago.

I respectfully disagree with the exception of perhaps the T Ford and a few others I may have missed. I am taking brass cars specifically. 

[KiwiFord]

8 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Seems like early car ownership ; that is one that actually drives and everything, is becoming more and more out of reach. Even black T's are now getting reasonably pricey in my area , and they are a car I don't even look twice at. Two on offer locally at the moment, a decent enough 17 touring , restored in the 1980's but unfortunately not driven since then for 15 K.  And a pretty decent, original condition 19 touring , running , driving for 10 K. { prices in Canadian peso's , that is what we earn in up here and that is what we have to spend in. } It is just as hard for a Canadian to earn $1000.00 Canadian as a U.S. person to earn $1000.00 U.S.D.  But when we go to spend in the U.S. our money trades at a deep discount. 

 I realize many can afford to spend this sort of money , but really, these are just black T's.

Price of admission raises sharply for anything Brass, and really sharply for anything in advance of a T. On the very rare occasion something 1915 or older is even for sale around here. Bringing a car into Canada from the U.S. gets very costly very quickly , so anyone of average means is more or less restricted to cars already in Canada for reasons mentioned above.

 

 

\

 

 

 

 

Same issue here. Strong EU/USD, weak AU dollar makes importing often prohibitive, makes local sellers more interested in selling offshore or at least asking international prices (not hobby friendly) and even tired old Ts are going for prices that do not make sense given they need a pretty much full going over. 

[m-mman]

There’s something else about brass cars, you can’t just get a car, you need the entire package. 
While a 1-2 cylinder car fits in a standard garage a big high horsepower car won’t. Because of the height it would likely need a tall garage too. A construction project might be necessary. 
 

You can tour in them but you can’t drive it to the tour.  Road speed and safety dictates that it travels in an enclosed trailer.  The car and trailer aren’t going to be towed by a commuter car so you need a large truck to move everything. (And fuel for the truck) 
 

So, $50,000……$100,000……even $150,000 to buy the car and then you need another $50,000 to $100,000 to “enjoy it”.  
Sure you might live in a rural area and you can take it around your neighborhood but what fun is that? I think big brass is best enjoyed surrounded by similar cars. 
 

The buy in for a stereotypical 50s 60s  car is just the car, but for a big brass car you basically need to double the purchase price. 
 

So no, they are going to go to (moneyed) advanced collectors and not to younger entry level hobbyists. 

[edinmass]

m-mman have you priced new trucks and trailers lately? It’s more like 175k for a truck and trailer, especially for the stuff that can haul big iron. In the end, transportation costs whether commercial or private is becoming a huge factor in owning a car. 

[KiwiFord]

Don’t know what you guys drive there… but sounds like you need some of the towing vehicles we have here. What’s your open road towing speed limit? 

Edited May 10 by KiwiFord (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

OK people, 

 

Isn't it the thrill of the chase, the joy of the build, and the people we meet?

Case in point.

 

The cost of fuel and lodging has become a problem. 

 

To get into the Brass Era It took me a minimum of;

 

2006 Silverado 2500HD 112,000 miles to start a total investment of $14,000, pretty dependable for towing.

One used 2007 20ft. Featherlight trailer new brakes and tires $12.500 total invested.

 

In 2015 a 1909 Model 30 basket case came my way, 5 years of backyard restoration ( many challenges) supplemented by 2 very good friends to help with machine work and body wood reconstruction.

One of these days I may find the patients to tackle the upholstery (bought the older Juki).

 

It won't be a show winner but she is a hoot to operate!

 

We have gone motoring more than 3,500 miles to date and enjoyed promoting these cars and this hobby to anyone who would stop by at a show or the barn and take the time to listen and review the pictures of this build..

This Brass Era automobile has been a very rewarding adventure in every respect. The difficult part is having the older friends slowing down or passing on not knowing their efforts go forward.

 

Having had a lifelong diverse interest in cars I came to appreciate these early automobiles later at about 55, and have been told by elders it's common yet many of them started with Brass in the hobby and stayed there.  

 

My observation is the number of new people coming in vs those dropping out is at least 10 to 1 regardless of the increasing economic barrier.

 

It's not a 50 horsepower 1912 Rambler but it might have been.  

 

Tear down the walls and encourage people to try and leave them better than you found them regardless of.. 

[edinmass]

 

I think brass will be the future spot most young folks to get into the hobby. A F150 and a small trailer with a T or other small early brass car is very affordable. I wouldn't haul a V-12Packard or Pierce without a dually and a diesel.  Even at three years old for a truck and trailer its still way over 100k. The hobby is NOT going away, just changing......and as a dinosaur I detest change. I think it will be much more common for smaller local tours where one doesn't need to haul a car for three days to start enjoying yourself. Time will tell. 

[BobinVirginia]

37 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

I think brass will be the future spot most young folks to get into the hobby. A F150 and a small trailer with a T or other small early brass car is very affordable. I wouldn't haul a V-12Packard or Pierce without a dually and a diesel.  Even at three years old for a truck and trailer its still way over 100k. The hobby is NOT going away, just changing......and as a dinosaur I detest change. I think it will be much more common for smaller local tours where one doesn't need to haul a car for three days to start enjoying yourself. Time will tell. 

I think the trend will also definitely go towards cars with lesser restorations. I don’t have time nor the interest in investing big money into my old cars. I just want to make them reliable, safe and fun. Then I’ll get in where I fit in and enjoy some touring. I was just telling someone yesterday. My car might be the rustiest on a tour but, at least it’ll be on a tour. 
Definitely takes determination, patience and hard work to make it happen. 

[Leif in Calif]

7 hours ago, m-mman said:

There’s something else about brass cars, you can’t just get a car, you need the entire package. 
While a 1-2 cylinder car fits in a standard garage a big high horsepower car won’t. Because of the height it would likely need a tall garage too. A construction project might be necessary. 
 

You can tour in them but you can’t drive it to the tour.  Road speed and safety dictates that it travels in an enclosed trailer.  The car and trailer aren’t going to be towed by a commuter car so you need a large truck to move everything. (And fuel for the truck) 
 

So, $50,000……$100,000……even $150,000 to buy the car and then you need another $50,000 to $100,000 to “enjoy it”.  
Sure you might live in a rural area and you can take it around your neighborhood but what fun is that? I think big brass is best enjoyed surrounded by similar cars. 
 

The buy in for a stereotypical 50s 60s  car is just the car, but for a big brass car you basically need to double the purchase price. 
 

So no, they are going to go to (moneyed) advanced collectors and not to younger entry level hobbyists. 

You forgot one other part of this supporting infrastructure: You have to have room to park it all! You need a place out of town on at least a half acre! 

I thought about getting a "T" at one point, it would be fun and doesn't have a big foot print. But...the T club mostly trailers to events and I'm not interested in getting a truck and trailer that will be used 6 or 7 times a year. Plus I live in town and although I have two garages, they aren't huge and are (naturally) full. 

[Grimy]

33 minutes ago, Leif in Calif said:

You forgot one other part of this supporting infrastructure: You have to have room to park it all! You need a place out of town on at least a half acre! 

I thought about getting a "T" at one point, it would be fun and doesn't have a big foot print. But...the T club mostly trailers to events and I'm not interested in getting a truck and trailer that will be used 6 or 7 times a year. Plus I live in town and although I have two garages, they aren't huge and are (naturally) full. 

A good friend bought a 1998 TPD enclosed 3-axle trailer from me for $5K, and he rents a Dodge 3500 Cummins from Enterprise for about $750/week including the $25/day used-for-towing charge four or five times per year to transport his vehicles (has a couple of 1930s Pierces and an early 1920s Stutz).  He thus dodges capital expense, insurance, storage and maintenance of a suitable truck.

[58L-Y8]

Out of curiosity, checking the specifications of the 1912 Rambler Models 74, 75 and 76, the four-cylinder engine has a 5.00" X 5.50" B & S which works out to 431.9 cid, 40/50hp.  Wheelbases are Model 74: 120"; Models 75 and 76: 128".  Prices for the open body styles were between $2,250 and $2,850.  The body styles all had evocative names such as "Country Club", "Gotham", "Valkyrie", "Moraine" and "Metropolitan" because who should be in the management at the time but Edward S "Ned" Jordan.  Who, of course, later became famous for his own eponymous car and his "Somewhere West of Laramie" advertisement that introduced romantic fantasy into automotive advertising. 

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Out of curiosity, checking the specifications of the 1912 Rambler Models 74, 75 and 76, the four-cylinder engine has a 5.00" X 5.50" B & S which works out to 431.9 cid, 40/50hp.  Wheelbases are Model 74: 120"; Models 75 and 76: 128".  Prices for the open body styles were between $2,250 and $2,850.  The body styles all had evocative names such as "Country Club", "Gotham", "Valkyrie", "Moraine" and "Metropolitan" because who should be in the management at the time but Edward S "Ned" Jordan.  Who, of course, later became famous for his own eponymous car and his "Somewhere West of Laramie" advertisement that introduced romantic fantasy into automotive advertising. 

Steve, Ned is the guy that went from a mansion and servants outside of Cleveland, to divorced, eventually completely broke living in a studio apartment in New York City when he died.?

[edinmass]

George……if Bob bought your old trailer for 5k, it’s obvious he over paid! 😂

 

Renting a truck is a very reasonable alternative if there is a place close by. It’s a much better value than actually owning one if you use it less than 30 days a year. 
 

In many places you can’t rent a one ton truck and tow with it……….Enterprise Truck Rental is very good if you have access to them.

 

Hauling high dollar cars, I won’t run thirty year old equipment……….but for a seldom used hobbies, it’s a reasonable choice. 
 

 

Edited May 10 by edinmass (see edit history)

[28StutzCabriolet]

Very interesting reading and I agree with much of it. My apologies for the following pointless ramble:

 

As for the Rambler, it is a tweener. Friends that own these and know them well from a mechanical standpoint are less than thrilled. Repairs and sensible improvements have cost them ungodly amounts of money. 

Although the engine is 5x5 1/2, same as a Packard "30", it is no Packard. The Rambler does not breath and it has suspect engineering.

 

The dealer markup on this car is probably 20% or more, so this is really a $70k-$80K car.

At $100k it's been around for a while. No buyer yet.

I like it, I would own it. It's not a car I would spill my guts over, however. With it's mechanical issues, I could just barely buy it, but I can't afford to own it. All of these cars need work or will soon.

 

Finally and to the point:

There are sub $50K cars like Chalmers, EMFs, Buicks. Most horseless carriages are now less than $50K including my beloved 11 Cadillac.  Buick Model 17s are a bit of an anomaly and go for $60-90K because of their performance and style.

There is a big gap in-between above this level. The jump is steep into the $200K region with little to be bought in between (Pope, Pierce etc).

 

Rich friends say that you don't need a $100 - 300K to have fun. The hotel, scenery, food, roads and everything is the same. 

 

I own three model Ts 1912, two 1913s and I love them to death. If I were getting started I would by a 1912 Buick model 29 with an older restoration. Just to be a little different if I could swing it. 

 

 

 

[58L-Y8]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Steve, Ned is the guy that went from a mansion and servants outside of Cleveland, to divorced, eventually completely broke living in a studio apartment in New York City when he died.?

A.J.:

That might be Billy Durant you are thinking of.  He was down and out by his end, living in a NYC apartment provided by his old-time industry contemporaries.  Durant and Jordan were similar personalities. 

"Ned's" Wiki indicates the 1930's were a rough period after divorce and collapse of the company, alcoholism etc.  Apparently pulled himself together by WWII, got back into the advertising game postwar.  For a man who was adept at "selling the sizzle along with the steak" it was his forte.   In addition to the colorful advertising copy, he did give us the Jordon Speedway Z Ace roadster and Sportsman sport sedan.

Steve

[edinmass]

David Dunbar Buick also died broke in a flop house teaching night classes till the day he died. 

Edited May 10 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

A.J.:

That might be Billy Durant you are thinking of.  He was down and out by his end, living in a NYC apartment provided by his old-time industry contemporaries.  Durant and Jordan were similar personalities. 

"Ned's" Wiki indicates the 1930's were a rough period after divorce and collapse of the company, alcoholism etc.  Apparently pulled himself together by WWII, got back into the advertising game postwar.  For a man who was adept at "selling the sizzle along with the steak" it was his forte.   In addition to the colorful advertising copy, he did give us the Jordon Speedway Z Ace roadster and Sportsman sport sedan.

Steve

 

My understanding is that he was a bit of a womanizer and his wife to a big chunk of his net worth and then the company went down the crapper soon after.    He had an impressive mansion outside of Cleveland complete with servants.   I'll have to find my Jordan book.

[Tom Laferriere]

Here we are entering the gates of the Breakers Mansion in Newport, RI in September 2023 and a photo of being Judged by very knowledgeable judges.  It was shown in the Brass Era class at the Audrain Concours.  Most people seemed to enjoy the spark starts with this hand crank only automobile.  Be sure the cylinders are charged with gasoline and compression and hit the button and it roars to life.  Retard the spark, lower the idle and it just chugs with that classic 4cyl song.  

 

This Rambler, with its commanding 50 horsepower, exudes power and performance, commanding attention wherever it travels. With the exhaust cutout open, its presence is announced long before it comes into view.

 

I love this car!

Edited May 12 by Tom Laferriere (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Tom, the Rambler looks a lot like one Mike Rothschild bought from Howard Sharp. The history doesn't match, though. Interesting that with so few they could be that similar.

A condition of that purchase in the early 1990s was that the dynamo be made operational. Howard referred Mike to me to make it work. I got a thorough competency grilling over the phone and the sale moved on. I figured the car had been hand cranked to start since 1920 or before. 

I made the dynamo operational and installed batteries. There was also an ignition battery and a magneto. quite an electrical system.

When Mike came up from NJ with his trailer the car failed to start for a different reason. He was in a hurry so he used the dynamo start switch to power it into the trailer saying he would fix it at home.

I remember there was confusion on the actual year of the car at that time. His interest was anything that was eligible for the London to Brighton race that had a self starter.

There is at least one picture of that car in my garage. I will try to post it.