For Sale: 1939 Packard Super 8 Limousine Model 1705 - Project - $10,500 - Westfield, MA - Not Mine

[58L-Y8]

For Sale: 1939 Packard Super 8 Limousine Model 1705 - Project - $10,500 - Westfield, MA

1939 Packard 1705 limousine for sale by owner - Westfield, MA - craigslist
Seller's Description:

1939 Packard Super 8 limousine model 1705, 148-inch wheelbase, 320 cid straight 8 engine is presently not running but, turns freely and not seized. I purchased the car in December 2014 and had it shipped from California. It has a clean Massachusetts title now. The Packard still has its original California license plates on it. The car is solid having nice solid floors, rocker panels and wheel wells. Driver side sidemount well has a few tiny pin holes. It will need a complete restoration. A previous owner started removing the original black paint and primed but, never completed. From what I can tell no further restoration was done. The body is very straight except for the two front fenders which will require body work. There are a few small dents in the rear panel to the left and below the trunk lid. The trunk is locked and cannot be opened as I don't have a key for it however, I do have the ignition key. I put two new Firestone whitewall tires on the front and one new and one very nice used tire on the rear so now adding air every couple of days is no longer required. The Packard needs to go to a new home where someone can bring her back to life as I have too many other projects going on and will never get to this one. odometer: 97282
If you have any question or would like to swing by to check it out let me know. $10,500 will listen to reasonable offers.
Contact: No phone listed
Copy and paste in your email: 7b17ecfb553d3c4e8f19c11cf47c40ae@sale.craigslist.org

I have no personal interest or stake in the eventual sale of this 1939 Packard Super 8 Limousine Model 1705 - Project.
The Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942, edited by Kimes and Clark states 3,962 1939 Packard Super 8  Model 1703 (127 in wb) and Model 1705 (148 in wb)  built.

[58L-Y8]

More Photos:

[AdamInNH]

With the way things cost today, if this car was free and the owner put $50K cash in your pocket, you’d be at least $100K upside down when it’s +done+. That’s reality. 

[r1lark]

Too bad the previous owner stripped the original paint. It might have been a good candidate to get it looking as good as possible cosmetically with what was there, and fix the mechanicals, and drive it. 

[kingrudy]

This would be a very long and costly journey to turn this one around. Parts availability and the cost to re upholster this car plus paint and chrome would scare me to death and that is after you got this car road worthy. 

[58L-Y8]

An arduous restoration only for those with enduring perseverance and very deep pockets...

[r1lark]

Not every car needs a high dollar restoration to perfect original to have fun with. 

[AdamInNH]

On 10/29/2023 at 3:31 PM, r1lark said:

Not every car needs a high dollar restoration to perfect original to have fun with. 

Just to tackle the mechanical work that it’ll surely need to put it into decent running and safe driving condition, with nothing more, would mean $20-60K. Doesn’t sound like +fun+ to me.

 

The best one in the world could be had in turn-the-key-and-go condition for $30-35K. 

[B Jake Moran]

What a sad reality. 

[JosephSatterlee]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:43 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

More Photos:

I like it.

[B Jake Moran]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:10 AM, AdamInNH said:

Just to tackle the mechanical work that it’ll surely need to put it into decent running and safe driving condition, with nothing more, would mean $20-60K. Doesn’t sound like +fun+ to me.

 

The best one in the world could be had in turn-the-key-and-go condition for $30-35K. 

I’m still puzzled why some classic era motors cost $50,000 to restore (not including some or most V16s). 
 

I get the car and pull the motor and put it on an engine stand. I get a rebuild kit from Kanter.  I disassemble it, do my own cleaning and degreasing, hone the cylinders myself.  I take measurements and find it in tolerance, install the $2,000 Kanter rebuild kit, etc.  Where is the other $48,000 going?  
 

Yes I am sure some of you are laughing but you don’t need to get everything, take it to a Packard or Cadillac or whatever specialist.  “You might get blow by or an out balance condition, it won’t be “perfect”.   
 

Maybe. But I think most would be much improved without spending ungodly sums. The finished car would not likely ever go past 10,000 to 20,000 miles driven for the rest of its life. 
 

And every example of a project car that simply is not economically viable comes with the inevitable “there are dozens of these for $30,000 already out there, no need to waste your time restoring this one”.  
 

I seldom see that. I don’t see a bunch of pre war 8 passenger cars for $30,000.  Maybe it’s just me.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by B Jake Moran (see edit history)

[alsancle]

13 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

I’m still puzzled why some classic era motors cost $50,000 to restore (not including some or most V16s). 
 

I get the car and pull the motor and put it on an engine stand. I get a rebuild kit from Kanter.  I disassemble it, do my own cleaning and degreasing, hone the cylinders myself.  I take measurements and find it in tolerance, install the $2,000 Kanter rebuild kit, etc.  Where is the other $48,000 going?  
 

Yes I am sure some of you are laughing but you don’t need to get everything, take it to a Packard or Cadillac or whatever specialist.  “You might get blow by or an out balance condition, it won’t be “perfect”.   
 

Maybe. But I think most would be much improved without spending ungodly sums. The finished car would not likely ever go past 10,000 to 20,000 miles driven for the rest of its life. 
 

And every example of a project car that simply is not economically viable comes with the inevitable “there are dozens of these for $30,000 already out there, no need to waste your time restoring this one”.  
 

I seldom see that. I don’t see a bunch of pre war 8 passenger cars for $30,000.  Maybe it’s just me.  

 

I'm up over 30k on my Stutz straight 8.  And a lot of that money was spent 15 years ago so now it would be more.  I would have to look at the bills but the machine work alone was stupid money.   Keep in mind that with a a lot of these cars they finish work and porcelain/chrome/brass finishes chew up a lot of money.    Then you have all the accessories to deal with.

 

I did the short block on my Royale for 10k 8 years ago.  If I add up the accessories and finish work I'll probably have 20k in to it total.  But that is a flat head eight.

[edinmass]

Prices are five time higher than ten years ago, and fifty time more difficult because there are so few decent shops left. 
 

 

[alsancle]

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Prices are five time higher than ten years ago, and fifty time more difficult because there are so few decent shops left. 
 

 

Ed, explain what happens when somebody rebuilds a Pierce V2 engine and they’ve not done it before.

[Rivguy]

I agree with Jake, not every car needs to be perfectly 'restored." It's true that the car would be driven very little from now on. Sometimes the motor can be dissassembled, cleaned up and reassembled and it will be okay if it hadn't suffered a major mechanical fraggin in the past. Reviving the original worn paint finish has more charm than an Earl Schieb respray but I've had a few of those done, and they were better than what I started with. The interior would be a huge challenge, I don't know if just cleaning it would be satisfactory, usually mice have gotten in there and it could be quite nasty. 

The real question is: "Could you be happy/satisfied with the result? " I know that most guys on this forum would not be, they are far more fussy than I am, and near perfection is what they require. I have my standards, they may be low, but I do have them!

[kar3516]

21 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Prices are five time higher than ten years ago, and fifty time more difficult because there are so few decent shops left. 
 

 

So few shops because there are so few experts left; the knowledge is aging out or passing away.  And the total market restoration demand is falling because there are more and more cars available with quality work performed in the period when that knowledge and expertise was readily available.  I think the top restoration shops will always have all the work they want.  But for most of us it has to be that one dream car only available by completing a restoration to justify spending the big bucks.  Everything else is a what can I get for that amount of money if I patiently wait for the right car to come along

[AdamInNH]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

Ed, explain what happens when somebody rebuilds a Pierce V2 engine and they’ve not done it before.

I’ll make it simple, on Ed’s behalf. They waste the owner’s money to the tune of $50K+++, screw things up in the process and then the owner has to endure the agony of having everything done over again at even greater expense. 
 

I am living this right now on my ‘32 Pierce 8 cylinder. Prior owner had ‘work done’. All disasters. These are not a small block Chevy engines that a high school auto shop kid could rebuild in his garage. 
 

”Do it once and do it right” means not buying a +rebuild kit+ from Kanter and having the corner auto parts store machine shop slap it together. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by AdamInNH (see edit history)

[alsancle]

17 hours ago, Rivguy said:

I agree with Jake, not every car needs to be perfectly 'restored." It's true that the car would be driven very little from now on. Sometimes the motor can be dissassembled, cleaned up and reassembled and it will be okay if it hadn't suffered a major mechanical fraggin in the past. Reviving the original worn paint finish has more charm than an Earl Schieb respray but I've had a few of those done, and they were better than what I started with. The interior would be a huge challenge, I don't know if just cleaning it would be satisfactory, usually mice have gotten in there and it could be quite nasty. 

The real question is: "Could you be happy/satisfied with the result? " I know that most guys on this forum would not be, they are far more fussy than I am, and near perfection is what they require. I have my standards, they may be low, but I do have them!

 

I completely agree with you in regards to cosmetics.  The only shortcuts you can take on the mechanical rebuilds are the finishes.   You don't have to porcelain the manifolds, or go crazy on the paint or chrome.   But when you do an engine internals, you should do it right your you may be just wasting your time and money.

[alsancle]

49 minutes ago, AdamInNH said:

I’ll make it simple, on Ed’s behalf. They waste the owner’s money to the tune of $50K+++, screw things up in the process and then the owner has to endure the agony of having everything done over again at even greater expense. 
 

I am living this right now on my ‘32 Pierce 8 cylinder. Prior owner had ‘work done’. All disasters. These are not a small block Chevy engines that a high school auto shop kid could rebuild in his garage. 
 

”Do it once and do it right” means not buying a +rebuild kit+ from Kanter and having the corner auto parts store machine shop slap it together. 

 

You Sir said this much better than Ed!

[m-mman]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:17 AM, B Jake Moran said:

I’m still puzzled why some classic era motors cost $50,000 to restore (not including some or most V16s). 
 

My 1929 Cadillac V8 $15,000. 
 

Originally babbit -  repour? Or modify with adapting some type of insert bearings?  I had them poured and quality machined. 
 

The lifters are roller design.  My builder found(?) Made new rollers and pins.  
 

The cam had to be welded and re-ground.  
 

The crank counter weights were BOLTED to the crank and the nuts were welded to the studs.  You carefully cut the welds to remove the weights to remove the rods to disassemble and reassemble the parts.  
 

You are machineing non mono-cast blocks, and inline blocks and side valve blocks.  To do this properly the boring and grinding machines have to be set up and aligned very differently from a SBC.  
Does the machinist REALLY know how to do this? Or could they grind or cut metal where they should not have?

 

I took my Hudson 8 flathead head to a local shop for a simple resurfacing. They did it, BUT they couldn’t understand there existing a cylinder head that didn’t have valves in it.  90% of the heads they do contain both valves and cams.  

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

A "kit" for a major Full Classic engine that costs $2000 and can be done at home? I don't think the font on this site can make my LOL big enough to convey how funny that is.

 

My Lincoln V12 needed 12 new pistons. Off the shelf or in a "kit?" LOL again. Custom made forgings that were like artwork. Cost almost $1000 each. EACH. Times 12.

 

Bearings? We converted to insert bearings for the rods but the mains were still babbit. Not sure how any of that could be included in a "kit." I used Ford diesel V8 insert bearings that needed some modifications, but they worked out well. But it wasn't a direct drop-in kind of thing.

 

Turning the crank. Lots of machine shops set up to handle Chevy 350 crankshafts. Call around and see if you can find one willing to touch a straight-8, V12, or V16 crankshaft. Not sure how a "kit" jobber would address machining the crankshaft. Or are you just throwing some new bearings on on the old crank and bolting it together at home and hoping it doesn't seize up at mile marker 18?

 

How about a timing chain? Mine was in good shape, but I do know of one other Lincoln K owner who needed a chain and had to resort to having one made. It costs as much as six of my pistons. FOR A TIMING CHAIN.

 

You have a valve seat machine at home? Can it handle a Packard straight-8 block? Then you can save a bunch of time and money. If not, well, you're paying the machine shop for that part, too. But not just any shop, just the one with the right tool that can handle a Packard straight-8 block. 

 

Assembly. Fitting the rings. Installing the cam. Setting the valves. Balancing the rotating assembly. Boring the cylinders. Decking the block(s) and head(s). Installing cam bearings. Having the camshaft profiled and reparkerized. Hot tanking the various parts. Oh, and how do you propose to remove the crank gear and harmonic balancer in your home garage? They require a special puller that only a handful of shops have access to (my shop had to borrow it from another shop in Colorado).  Oh, and do you know how to rebuild that balancer there on the end of the crank? It's full of springs and washers and special fasteners and all kinds of little tiny stuff that flies all over the shop when you take it apart.

 

 

Then there's the water pump. $1000. Radiator, $2800. Gotta get the cooling system in shape, right? Or are you going to rebuild the engine and ignore that stuff then come here and complain that your car keeps overheating and is there something you can pour in there to fix it? Same with the fuel system.

 

Hell, just the gasket kit is $1200. 

 

How much time to assemble it? If you're doing it yourself, cost is only your time but if you're paying a professional to do it, it's probably 40 hours. Maybe more for more complex motors with overhead cams and/or overhead valves. You sure you got those valves right? Piston ring clearance? Bearing clearances? Are you suuuuurre?

 

So yes, I guess if there's a kit and you're an expert with a huge cache of specialized tools in your home garage, a professional rebuild probably seems like a ridiculously expensive proposition. 

But if you're not that guy, well, you can probably see how things can add up pretty quickly.

[Bloo]

$2000 is about right for a non-Chevrolet American V8 with pistons, bore, all bearings, hot tank, including belts, hoses, carb kit, timing chain, oil pump, generator bearings & brushes, starter bushings & brushes, water pump, fuel pump, plugs, plug wires, cap-rotor-points, engine mounts & other needed rubber parts if done in about 1988 and you did all the work not requiring a machine shop yourself.

 

This car? LOL no.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[alsancle]

34 minutes ago, Bloo said:

$2000 is about right for a non-Chevrolet American V8 with pistons, bore, all bearings, hot tank, including belts, hoses, carb kit, timing chain, oil pump, generator bearings & brushes, starter bushings & brushes, water pump, fuel pump, plugs, plug wires, cap-rotor-points, engine mounts & other needed rubber parts if done in about 1988 and you did all the work not requiring a machine shop yourself.

 

This car? LOL no.

 

I did my Pontiac 400 soup to nuts for 600 bucks.  But that was 1982 and I didn't pay for the labor.

[alsancle]

I have a friend who has his expensive 1930s multi cylinder engine at one of the best shops in the country.  The estimate was 75K to 100K.  No cosmetics.  After tear down, they were hopeful to stick with the lower number.

[58L-Y8]

One last thing to know about the 1939 Super 8 engine: it's a one-year-only unique to itself version of the 320 ci straight eight that Packard had built from 1929-1938.  The 1939 Super 8 series was the first year they rationalized that model onto the 1938 Eight/1939 120 body and chassis.  The 320 ci engine wouldn't quite fit, so modifications had to be made to the cylinder block casting and ancillary components to fit into the smaller engine bay.   That would contribute significantly to the cost if this engine needs a thorough rebuild.

 

Packard issued Service Bulletins postwar for the procedure to replace this 320ci engine with postwar monobloc 327 ci service replacement engines for customers that wanted their still serviceable 1939 Super 8 fitted with one.

[Rivguy]

Thanks for the detailed replies. I have been reading the thread about  Matt Harwood's experience with his Lincoln 12. It's been very interesting and to hear how much some of parts cost, is eye opening! Like every endeavor in Life you have to know what level you can play in. I kind of intuitively knew that my place in the old car game is on the bottom level, but that's okay, I think that I'm having as much fun as anybody else. I hope that it's still fun at that pricing strata. 

Nothing I have said is meant to denigrate anyone that is dedicated enough to invest that kind of money to rebuild a true Classic. I can't play on that field and will enjoy watching the game from the sidelines.

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

One last thing to know about the 1939 Super 8 engine: it's a one-year-only unique to itself version of the 320 ci straight eight that Packard had built from 1929-1938.  The 1939 Super 8 series was the first year they rationalized that model onto the 1938 Eight/1939 120 body and chassis.  The 320 ci engine wouldn't quite fit, so modifications had to be made to the cylinder block casting and ancillary components to fit into the smaller engine bay.   That would contribute significantly to the cost if this engine needs a thorough rebuild.

 

Packard issued Service Bulletins postwar for the procedure to replace this 320ci engine with postwar monobloc 327 ci service replacement engines for customers that wanted their still serviceable 1939 Super 8 fitted with one.

Yes, it may be a one year engine, but Super Eight engines from 1937 to 1939 are interchangeable. A 1939 block, for interest, fits a 1938 crankcase.  The block has different cooling passages and different water pump, but bolts right on. A 1939 block must use a 1939 head, per the cooling passages mentioned.  As far as fitting, a 1937, 1938, 1939 engine will fit any of those three years.

[arcticbuicks]

the blue california plates are not original plates ......the car looks to come from a wetter state

[B Jake Moran]

11 hours ago, Rivguy said:

Thanks for the detailed replies. I have been reading the thread about  Matt Harwood's experience with his Lincoln 12. It's been very interesting and to hear how much some of parts cost, is eye opening! Like every endeavor in Life you have to know what level you can play in. I kind of intuitively knew that my place in the old car game is on the bottom level, but that's okay, I think that I'm having as much fun as anybody else. I hope that it's still fun at that pricing strata. 

Nothing I have said is meant to denigrate anyone that is dedicated enough to invest that kind of money to rebuild a true Classic. I can't play on that field and will enjoy watching the game from the sidelines.

I’m used to some of these folks criticizing my comments. I am not saying they are wrong. They are probably right. Are right (to avoid them saying my probably is wrong).  
 

I’m like you I am a “bottom feeder” without the money to do what some of these guys spend their money on. I guess we are at the point where cars like this LWB 1939 Packard will NEVER be restored.  Part it out?  No, no one is restoring pre war closed cars.  We need to stop even bringing them to the forums attention.  

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, B Jake Moran said:

I’m used to some of these folks criticizing my comments. I am not saying they are wrong. They are probably right. Are right (to avoid them saying my probably is wrong).  
 

I’m like you I am a “bottom feeder” without the money to do what some of these guys spend their money on. I guess we are at the point where cars like this LWB 1939 Packard will NEVER be restored.  Part it out?  No, no one is restoring pre war closed cars.  We need to stop even bringing them to the forums attention.  

 

We went off topic as usual.  The forum is like a bunch of drunk guys in a bar talking about cars.  Some are more drunk than others, but the conversation always strays.

 

This car is a flathead straight eight,  so there is absolutely a shot that a home restorer could disassemble the engine,  do rings, valves and bearings and have a running car.    I personally was responding to the cost of the more exotic Classic era engines that you can't do at home.

 

I struggle with the balance between promoting the hobby and cheerleading vs the cold reality of what can happen when you take on something like this.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[B Jake Moran]

And I don't mind being criticized, it's not personal.  I do offer counterpoints sometimes because there are hundreds of fence sitters that won't comment.  They just read and move on.  I know I become better informed when Ed, Matt and others comment. 

 

There is no doubt that the restoration hobby has shifted away from classics to a more economical approach to enjoying the hobby. I restored a 66 Oldsmobile Toronado as my senior class project in Automotive trade school.  The 425 had 105,000 miles on it, this was 1998, I or classmates did all the work and it still cost $5,000 in parts and machine work we could not do. 

 

I found Matt's detailed counterpoint informative.  Lots of those "little" processes and parts on the classics that need hand made, wow.  

[Rivguy]

I was at a car show this Summer that had a late 20's or early 30's Buick limo on display. The body was in good shape and complete with all the trim, shined up as best as possible. The original paint was touched up. It had a lot of mechanical work done by the owner's Uncle who had owned the car for over 30 years and had started a mechanical restoration before he passed away. The interior was worn, but cleaned and patched up. It seemed to drive very well. It was interesting to see a rare car like that. It wasn't  a restoration, but it wasn't a scruffy mess either.  

Maybe cars like that old Packard would run with a driveway overhaul, maybe not. I suppose that someone might buy a car like that, clean it up and tow it to shows for a static display. We all have trucks for towing, don't we? Aren't all the cars in museums just sitting there? 

I think that a lot of owners just like having an interesting car to display at events as a conversation piece, the actual mileage accumulated while driving it is minuscule, my idea just eliminates that small amount of driving. As long as the car is stored inside it will be preserved. Think of it like a vintage camper trailer. 

[TAKerry]

22 hours ago, alsancle said:

I did my Pontiac 400 soup to nuts for 600 bucks.  But that was 1982 and I didn't pay for the labor.

Add about 7400. to that number now (inclusive of lablor)!

 

All this talk about how much it cost to rebuild the motor on one of these great old automobiles makes me glad I have 70's junk! LOL.

[58L-Y8]

19 hours ago, trimacar said:

Yes, it may be a one year engine, but Super Eight engines from 1937 to 1939 are interchangeable. A 1939 block, for interest, fits a 1938 crankcase.  The block has different cooling passages and different water pump, but bolts right on. A 1939 block must use a 1939 head, per the cooling passages mentioned.  As far as fitting, a 1937, 1938, 1939 engine will fit any of those three years.

Dave:

Will a 1937 or 1938 engine without the unique-to-1939-cylinder block, head. water pump still fit into the 1939 Super 8 engine bay?  My understanding is that the changes had to be made to those components to make the existing 1937-'38 engine fit into the Junior chassis. 

[trimacar]

4 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Dave:

Will a 1937 or 1938 engine without the unique-to-1939-cylinder block, head. water pump still fit into the 1939 Super 8 engine bay?  My understanding is that the changes had to be made to those components to make the existing 1937-'38 engine fit into the Junior chassis. 

The 1939 Super 8 engine, crankcase/block/head, are identical in physical size to the 1937-38 engines.  The 1939 engine is different, but only some things internally. There IS a difference to the water pump, so if there's any interference (and I personally don't know that there is) then that may be a source of space interference at the front of the engine.

[58L-Y8]

I must admit I'm surprise this old Packard has generated so much discussion, though that's one of the benefits of the 'Not Mine' forum.   Among the reasons this Packard is unlikely to be the subject of an extensive restoration is simply its body style and model year.  The 1939 Super 8 1705 being the first of the "Senior" model rationalized onto the Junior platform lost much of the cache of the prior years.  Mechanically, it still runs the 320 ci 1937-'38 Super Eights but those engines had been the Standard Eight/Eight up through 1936 while the big 385 ci held the Super Eight title. 

 

The 148" wb 1938 Eight 1602 & 1939 120 1702 both 7-passenger sedan and limousine were the successor to the 1937 138-CD, priced around $2K, powered by the 282 ci engine.  These two models were essentially developed for the funeral/livery business, offering primarily passenger capacity; appealing proportions are very much secondary.  For 1940, this platform was promoted upscale to the Super Eight 160 1805 and Custom Super Eight 180 1808, received the all-new monobloc 356 ci straight eight, plus become the basis for Rollson semi-custom styles. 

 

But, of the 1939 Super 8, the desirability pecking order goes: convertible coupe, coupe, convertible sedan, sedan, then the two lwb models.