1928 - 1930 LINCOLN vs PACKARD

[1937hd45]

Ok, if you wanted to buy either one back then or tomorrow what are the features that you feel are better. Based of pure good looks I like Lincolns over the same era Packard, and I once owned a 443 Roadster project that I drove home. Bob

[West Peterson]

Purely from a driving standpoint, the Packard will run circles around the Lincoln.... and nothing beats Packard in regard to reliability. I'm told the Lincoln fork and blade engine is a nightmare to work on. That said, I've always thought the Packard was a little sportier looking than Lincoln, especially by 1930 with the Deluxe Eight.

[alsancle]

Note really fair to compare since the 1930 Packard 745 is one of the jazziest chassis of the Classic era.   The extra 5" in the hood makes a big difference.

 

[charlespetty]

I will stick to 1930 cheapest sedan models for my comparisons:

Packard had four models in 1930 compared to Lincoln's one.  

Packard 726 - $2485 - 127 1/2" wheelbase - L head straight eight 319.2 cubic inches - 4.38 standard rear axle ratio - 90hp@3200rpm.

Packard 733 - $2675 - 134 1/2" wheelbase - L head straight eight 319.2 cubic inches - 4.69 standard rear axle ratio - 90hp@3200rpm.

Packard 740 - $3585 - 140 1/2" wheelbase - L head straight eight  384.9 cubic inches - 4.38 standard rear axle ratio - 106hp@3200rpm.

Packard 745 - $4985 - 145 1/5" wheelbase - L head straight eight 384.9 cubic inches - 4.38 standard rear axle ratio - 106hp@3200rpm.

Lincoln - $4500 - 136" wheelbase - L head V8 fork and blade 384.9 cubic inches - 4.58 standard rear axle ratio - 90hp@2800rpm.

 

From a contemporary 1930 drive report on the smaller of the two Packard engines, 25, 45, 70 are the comfortable maximum speeds in each gear.  

1930 Lincoln drive report from the Autocar magazine:  Sedan stopped in 34 feet from 30mph.  Acceleration from 10-30mph in second 5 1/2 seconds and in third 7 1/2 seconds

Fuel consumption 12 mpg.  Timed speed over 1/4 mile 79.64mph.  

[charlespetty]

[zepher]

Neither, I'd buy a Pierce Arrow and have a far superior car overall compared to both the Packard and the Lincoln. 

[charlespetty]

A 1930 Pierce Arrow is in no way superior to the same year Packard or Lincoln.  A later Pierce maybe, but not in the time period in this discussion 1928-1930.  

[Grimy]

1 minute ago, charlespetty said:

A 1930 Pierce Arrow is in no way superior to the same year Packard or Lincoln.  A later Pierce maybe, but not in the time period in this discussion 1928-1930.  

As you might expect, as the owner of a 1930 P-A roadster for 20 years I disagree 🙂 but I almost commented on @zepher post that I would exclude 1928 Pierces which were the old platforms.  And I have indeed driven a 1928 Lincoln and 1928 and 1929 senior Packards.  But if you expand the range to include a 1931 Lincoln K, I'll go for that year Lincoln!

[West Peterson]

15 hours ago, alsancle said:

Note really fair to compare since the 1930 Packard 745 is one of the jazziest chassis of the Classic era.   The extra 5" in the hood makes a big difference.

 

For 1930, the only production car that comes close to this in looks is a Cadillac of same body style. (I'm ignoring the wild high-contrast colors, frosted donuts, travel trunk, and the myriad of lights). I do not believe a Pierce-Arrow Eight surpasses it in regard to engineering, and I'm not sure what production car would surpass it in performance, other than Packard's own Model 734.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

If I am not mistaken Lincoln factory bodies were aluminum in those years, at least by 1930.  Is that a plus, or minus?  

[Walt G]

I have driven all three, over some period of years ( decades?) and sincerely appreciate all three makes! each one has its own "finer" characteristics/points/ etc but that in my mind does not put down nor make one so vastly superior that you should shun the other or turn up your nose ( and possibly drown if it starts to rain) . I do own one of the makes mentioned, not the longest wheelbase, biggest motor, etc) I wish I had the space and $ to buy and own one each of the others in the same body type. I just have to be happy to have the period factory sales literature and dealer items on them. Try to think about what the cars were like when new, not take in 100 years of comparison to later features to say "that was bad" about what was then. anyone is lucky to own or even ride in any of them  AND what conditions were you trying them out in weather wise? Clear and sunny and dry or rain, cold , day night etc. At least two of the three mentioned I have been in under the dreary conditions mentioned.

 

[31nash880]

Still curious, 

Why does this car not fit in the comparison since pierce arrow was?

Car is long wheel based, straight 8 engine at 100hp, fully self lubricating suspension, auto shutters on radiator just to name a few things. 

 

Answer? 1930 Nash

[TAKerry]

Ill be the test monkey. You guys can drop off one of each at my place for about a week and I will give an honest evaluation.

[edinmass]

A properly dialed in 1930 Pierce Arrow Series A will EAT the Packard for lunch............I have driven all the Lincolns and Packards from the 28-30 era. The speedsters are a cut above the rest of the Packards. That said, engine power, steering, and brakes are better on the Pierce. Of course, the Packards bring much more money than a Pierce or Lincoln. As far as style..........depends on the body style, and builder. 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

the debate and opinions ( valid or imaginary) will always be there and have always been there.

Reread what I posted 4 hours ago. A lot has to do with the driver's ability as well to see a car work perfectly or at least as it should.

[1937hd45]

53 minutes ago, Walt G said:

the debate and opinions ( valid or imaginary) will always be there and have always been there.

Reread what I posted 4 hours ago. A lot has to do with the driver's ability as well to see a car work perfectly or at least as it should.

That is something I've never understood, comes from having no burning desire to drive Vintage cars. If a vehicle gets you from A to B in comfort it has done its job. Looking great parked at the curb, front of your house or in the garage are the selling points to me. Cars are parked for 95+% of their lifetime.

 

Bob 

[bryankazmer]

27 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

That is something I've never understood, comes from having no burning desire to drive Vintage cars. If a vehicle gets you from A to B in comfort it has done its job. Looking great parked at the curb, front of your house or in the garage are the selling points to me. Cars are parked for 95+% of their lifetime.

 

Bob 

So a design with good looks but so-so performance suits you.  in our time frame you sound like you should check out the Cord L29.  Different emphases for different people, no problem with that.

[1937hd45]

19 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

So a design with good looks but so-so performance suits you.  in our time frame you sound like you should check out the Cord L29.  Different emphases for different people, no problem with that.

The L29 CORD is on my Top 6 Classics to buy once the Lottery money starts coming in. Old story, but some people never read it. My grandfather was a chauffer and drove a V16 Cadillac town car, the boss's son had an L29 CORD Cabriolet. Dad was 15 years old and was asked to drive the CORD from New York City to the estate here in Ridgefield. He explained that he didn't have a drivers license, didn't matter he was told any tickets would be taken care of. Always wonder what the current equitant to an L29 is today. Trip went fine but Dad never liked the dashboard shift lever. 

[charlespetty]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

A properly dialed in 1930 Pierce Arrow Series A will EAT the Packard for lunch............I have driven all the Lincolns and Packards from the 28-30 era. The speedsters are a cut above the rest of the Packards. That said, engine power, steering, and brakes are better on the Pierce. Of course, the Packards bring much more money than a Pierce or Lincoln. As far as style..........depends on the body style, and builder. 

 

 

I don't dispute your experience with these cars, but how can the 1930 Pierce have better brakes than the Packard and Lincoln?  Packard and Lincoln have 16 inch drums.  The Pierce has 15 inch drums.  Lincoln has the most brake lining per wheel at 46 9/16" per wheel 2 1/2" wide.  Packard is close behind with 45 1/4" lining per wheel 2" wide on the bigger series and 1 3/4" wide on the smaller series.  Pierce only has 24 1/2" lining per wheel 2 1/4" wide.  Packard and Pierce have 50% braking force split evenly front and back.  Lincoln has 55% braking force on the rear wheels and 45% on the front wheels.  The only braking specification that Pierce has over the other two is four wheel hand brake activation versus only rear wheel on the Packard and Lincoln.
Lincoln brake swept area 465sq.in.

Large series

Packard brake swept area 362sq.in.

Smaller series Packard brake swept area 315sq.in.

Pierce brake swept area 221sq.in.  

 

Educate me.

Edited March 14, 2023 by charlespetty (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I think it's Ed's way of stating he's never driven a properly dialed-in Packard from 1930. 🤪

[SC38dls]

If I was in a position to buy any one of theses vehicles I would have to take the mechanics thoughts on one of these over the editor’s feelings on one (sorry West). Anyone that can listen to a car run and know if it is right and be correct in that statement without ever getting to drive it has know a hell of a lot more about how cars preform more than a non-professional mechanic person. 
I’ll go for the P/A when I win the lottery. 
dave s 

[Grimy]

Brake comparison?  Ask Ed about comparing horns, not brakes!  By the way, the Lockheed 3-shoe brakes on my 1930 P-A can lock up those big 700 x 18 diamond-tread Bedfords if I'm not careful.....

[edinmass]

People ask, and I give my opinion. Just because one reads the statistics of brake area, gear ratios, displacement, or any other one particular item……….doesn’t mean any one actually functions better than another. I have driven Lincoln’s about 1500 miles over the years. I have driven Packards of 1928-1934 about 4000 miles over the years, and I’m guessing I have 35,000 on Pierce Arrows of which 98 percent is in the 8’s and 12’s. I’m guessing I have about 12,000 in Model J’s.

 

Personally on Packards, I prefer the 904’s as my favorite all around platform. Interestingly my favorite Pierce platform is a Series 54. Both 1932 automobiles. There is no perfect car, and truth be known there is absolutely nothing at all that compares to a Model J. For Lincoln’s a 1932 KB is great, and the later K cars are also very nice. I have owned a lot of cars. Too many to count. You can tell from my checkbook what car wins my vote. My father was a Packard man through and through. Until I let him drive my Pierce. 
 

We took out the Individual Custom Dietrich Stationary Coupe today for a brief spin today……….we are taking it to lunch tomorrow for St Patrick’s Day. It is green after all. I bestowed on it an official name this afternoon. It’s now known as “Corn beef & cabbage”…………I can’t print all the cars nick names we have in the collection, as they are not for mixed company. The disappearing top Rollston is called “Big Slick”, because the real name that rhymes with it isn’t for polite society.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

18 hours ago, 31nash880 said:

Still curious, 

Why does this car not fit in the comparison since pierce arrow was?

Car is long wheel based, straight 8 engine at 100hp, fully self lubricating suspension, auto shutters on radiator just to name a few things. 

 

Answer? 1930 Nash

 

That isn't a 1930 model. That's a 1932. Great car, though.

[31nash880]

Just pulled from Google as comparison. I own a 880 4dr sedan. Have been getting back on road after 50 year rest. Have not been able to drive or ride in anything to compare it to.

[58L-Y8]

4 hours ago, 31nash880 said:

Just pulled from Google as comparison. I own a 880 4dr sedan. Have been getting back on road after 50 year rest. Have not been able to drive or ride in anything to compare it to.

Your Nash 880 comparable makes/models for 1931 would be Chrysler Eight Series CD, Studebaker Commander Series 70, Buick Series 60, Auburn 8-98, Willys 8-80D, Graham Special 45 or 53, Hudson Greater Eight Series T, Hupmobile Century Eight Model L.  A lot of good choices in the ~$1,300 range for folks to select from that year as the country descended into the economic morass.

Edited March 15, 2023 by 58L-Y8
syntax corrected (see edit history)

[31nash880]

Nice list to be in. Thanks

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

That isn't a 1930 model. That's a 1932. Great car, though.

 I count 5 colors.  I think I may be amending the 5 color rule to the 4 color rule.

[Rusty_OToole]

Ed as long as we are on the subject how would you rate the Pierce 12 to the Duesenberg J? I ask this because of the very impressive, 24 hour records set by Pierce in 1932 33 and 34. They were only beaten by a Duesenberg and a supercharged one at that. The next year the Duesy came back and set a new record, but this time with a Curtis Conqueror aircraft engine. I take it from that, that the supercharged Duesy was pushed to its limit beating the Pierce and needed more motor to beat its own record.

 

To me the Pierce is very impressive since it was not thought of as a performance machine but a luxury coach for tycoons and dowagers. Yet it rivaled the Duesenberg in performance.

[1937hd45]

All that money in paint and chrome, guess the rear steps are the next expenditure. 

 

[edinmass]

17 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Ed as long as we are on the subject how would you rate the Pierce 12 to the Duesenberg J? I ask this because of the very impressive, 24 hour records set by Pierce in 1932 33 and 34. They were only beaten by a Duesenberg and a supercharged one at that. The next year the Duesy came back and set a new record, but this time with a Curtis Conqueror aircraft engine. I take it from that, that the supercharged Duesy was pushed to its limit beating the Pierce and needed more motor to beat its own record.

 

To me the Pierce is very impressive since it was not thought of as a performance machine but a luxury coach for tycoons and dowagers. Yet it rivaled the Duesenberg in performance.

A Pierce 12 will keep up reasonably with a Model J. If you tweak the stock Pierce from 185 horsepower to 210-215, which you can do easily, it makes them CLOSE to par…….but not quite. My 1936 1602 is tricked out to about 225. How, I won’t  say. The J is 422cid. The stock Pierce was 468, and if you really tweak it, you can go to 510cid. Not that Imwould ever do it.🤔

 

The J will always out accelerate the Pierce 12…….especially below 60 mph. After that, they become very close in operating envelopes.
 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Leaving aside acceleration how would you rate them for handling, silence, smoothness, riding comfort etc? If you were a millionaire in the market for a new car in 1934 for every day use would you prefer one over the other or are they so close it would be a matter of individual taste?

[Fox H.]

I am also very interested to hear a detailed response in the differences between the marques. It is very hard to find written opinions from individuals who have driven each, and even harder to be one of those individuals. 

[alsancle]

I’m going to find the thread where we already hashed this all over.

 

I can’t do it on my phone right now.

 

But let me paraphrase what Ed is saying. If you take a Pierce Arrow V12, which came out four years after the Duesenburg straight eight, and you hot rod it, you may be able to see the tail lights of the Duesenburg in the distance.

 

EDIT: and I’m sure he’s thinking about his 36 V12. Which was the first year of overdrive in the Pierce Arrow, which would be critical for keeping up with a Duesenberg.

Edited March 15, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[pmhowe]

On 3/14/2023 at 3:35 PM, 1937hd45 said:

That is something I've never understood, comes from having no burning desire to drive Vintage cars. If a vehicle gets you from A to B in comfort it has done its job. Looking great parked at the curb, front of your house or in the garage are the selling points to me. Cars are parked for 95+% of their lifetime.

 

Bob 

That is one perspective. Another perspective is that it is the journey, not the destination, that is important. There's  room for both perspectives. I think which one is important is situation and time dependent. That has certainly been the case for me. When I look at pictures of the cars that Ed and colleagues are often discussing, I tend to slip into the "enjoy looking at them" mode, as I will never own one or drive one. I still enjoy them. Mine, that slip towards the other end of the value scale, I still love to look at and cherish, and but love to drive as well.

Phil

[alsancle]

So there were a few different threads were we hashed out the super cars from the 30s.   I thought there was a Packard V12 vs Pierce V12 one but I have not found it yet.

 

This one has a lot of the usual arguments in it:

 

 

[zepher]

On 3/14/2023 at 4:39 PM, Grimy said:

Brake comparison?  Ask Ed about comparing horns, not brakes!  By the way, the Lockheed 3-shoe brakes on my 1930 P-A can lock up those big 700 x 18 diamond-tread Bedfords if I'm not careful.....

 

You are absolutely correct about the 3 shoe brakes on the Pierce Arrows.

My Pierce is probably the heaviest body style available, aside from a one-off custom body, and I can easily lock up the wheels if I want to.

As I stated in the thread about the safety of mechanical brakes, the brakes on my Pierce are every bit as competent as the hydraulic 4 wheel drum brakes on the '64 Malibu I used to own.

[charlespetty]

The mechanical brakes on my 1930 Lincoln are very effective at most speeds up to 45-50.  I've never tried a rapid stop from faster speeds.  The mechanical brakes on my 1937 Lincoln K with the Bragg-Kliesrath vacuum booster are wickedly effective and will throw you through the windshield if you stomp them too hard.