New 1938 Buick owner

[Beastmode54]

Good evening everyone. I purchased a 1938 Buick 2 door convertible this past weekend. The vehicle seemed to drive well all weekend and this week until today. When I got home I stopped in my driveway for about 3-5 minutes and the car began to dump radiator fluid. 
 

shortly after I filled it with water to look for a leak and noticed that on the start the exhaust had a lot of white smoked and that smell of burning. I then looked in the back and saw a bunch of back stuff on my floor from the exhaust. It hadn’t done that on any of the previous starts. No notice leaks when I put water in and started it again. 
 

where do I begin guys?

[1937 Buick 66C]

Good Evening Beastmode54,

 

When you encountered these problems, what was the temperature gauge showing?  Was the Buick overheating? 

 

[Beastmode54]

I drove the car for a few days no issues what so ever. 
 

today I drove it from work to my house about 11 miles and it was around 65 degrees out. As I got home my neighbor said hi I was backing up stopped the car and let it run while I talked for about 3-5 minutes tops. All of a sudden a bunch of radiator fluid came out and I turned it off. About two hours later I let it cool put water in the radiator to check for leaks and all of a sudden it smoked bad and all this black stuff came out the back. It started but when you press the gas a bunch of white smoke and a strong smell stars. 

[Beastmode54]

The temperature gauge was fine on my way home. Not until I got home did that happen. I also will note I added oil to the car 2 days ago. It was forward the low part of the dipstick so I added a quart and now sits a bit below full. 

[avgwarhawk]

Black soot coming out of the exhaust pipe appears to be running rich. Quite possible head gasket blew from overheating. Check for water in the oil.

[MCHinson]

When you say the car began to "dump radiator fluid", what do you mean? Where did you see the water? Was it coming out of the radiator cap, or somewhere else? Was it dripping, spewing, or something else? I am trying to understand exactly what you saw. 

 

Typically white smoke from the exhaust would indicate water in the combustion chamber, which would lead me to think you possibly have a blown head gasket. The black soot out of the tailpipe is not necessarily a serious problem as the car running rich possibly from flooding or just a misadjusted carburetor will cause black soot to come from the tailpipe. I would suggest draining the oil and checking for water in the oil that you drain out of the oil pan. If you find water there, that would sound like you need a mechanic who can change the head gasket. Where are you located? Perhaps someone with a bit more experience with these cars might be nearby and able to help you diagnose it. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[Beastmode54]

Good morning MCHinson. When the vehicle began to dump anti freeze I couldn’t tell because it was spraying coming out hot. Lost of smoke. Once it calmed down it seemed like it was coming from the lower right side (passenger) maybe from the overflow hose. Once I filled it up nothing came out and I ran it for a few minutes and nothing happened anymore leak was gone. 
 

Im located in Lancaster Ca about and hour and fifteen north of Los Angeles. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Beastmode54 (see edit history)

[Buick35]

Since its a non pressurized system it could be just overfilled with coolant.That happened to me during the Christmas parade.I got tired of people telling me "you got a coolant leak".I topped of the radiator before the parade which I shoudnt have done.

[avgwarhawk]

9 minutes ago, Buick35 said:

Since its a non pressurized system it could be just overfilled with coolant.That happened to me during the Christmas parade.I got tired of people telling me "you got a coolant leak".I topped of the radiator before the parade which I shoudnt have done.

Quite possibly the issue.  The radiator will burp out what is not needed and find it's own level.  Fill it and let it run.  Watch the temp gauge.   What is concerning is the hot spraying coolant.  Not a great sign.  Normally the radiator will burp up extra coolant after shutting down the engine. It will come out of the tube down the side of the radiator.  Definitely not spraying and billowing steam.   

[MCHinson]

45 minutes ago, Beastmode54 said:

Good morning MCHinson. When the vehicle began to dump anti freeze I couldn’t tell because it was spraying coming out hot. Lost of smoke. Once it calmed down it seemed like it was coming from the lower right side (passenger) maybe from the overflow hose. Once I filled it up nothing came out and I ran it for a few minutes and nothing happened anymore leak was gone. 
 

Im located in Lancaster Ca about and hour and fifteen north of Los Angeles. 

I still don't quite understand from what you have posted. To help diagnose over the internet, it requires explicit descriptive text of what you see. What was spraying from where? Liquid coolant or steam? Where did you see that? Was the "white smoke" coming from the exhaust pipe, or from under the hood? You say that you ran it for a few minutes after this happened and nothing happend and the leak was gone. If you start the car and let it run now, what does the temperature gauge show, is there any white smoke or steam coming out under the hood, or from the exhaust pipe? 

 

Additionally, On these cars, the coolant should not be filled totally to the top of the radiator. There should be an inch or so of air space for the coolant to expant at the top of the radiator. Overfilling will cause coolant to overflow out of the radiator cap. Also, there should not be an overflow hose on the radiator, the cap is slightly loose fitting (non-pressurized system) and coolant will simply come out of the cap.

[Steve_bigD]

Compression leaking into the coolant system either from a bad head gasket, or as in my case with my 38 special a cracked cylinder head, will cause pressure to push coolant out of the overflow tube. My car didn't overheat but after a high speed run when coming to a stop would spray coolant and steam out of the overflow and the temperature gauge would rise very quickly to max. If I then revved the engine a bit the temperature would drop back quickly, which I think indicated steam pockets in the system. I also don't like the look of the residue around your radiator cap which is typically caused by oil in the water forming a sort of gummy coating throughout the cooling system and usually results from oil in the cylinders being forced into the cooling system during compression and firing.  It could also be caused by a stop leak type of additive which I hope is the case for you.

 

Without a pressurized cooling system it is difficult to use a cooling system pressure gauge since you have to have a closed system for it to work. You could get a test kit that takes a sample of the coolant and indicates if there is evidence of combustion products in the cooling system. What I did is after warming up the engine I removed the upper hose and thermostat and housing and filled the coolant just level with the top of the thermostat bypass housing and took the fan belt off.  Then I ran the engine at idle and observed the coolant level. It should not rise at all once warmed up but mine slowly rose and overflowed.  This indicated pressure entering the system and confirmed a compression leak into the system.

 

I am sure there are other ways as well to check this and if there is a compression leak you could then do a compression and/or leakdown test to locate the offending cylinder(s). These long straight eights tend to deposit crud and rust in the rear two cylinders over time which leads to higher temperatures and hot spots in these cylinders and could cause warping and cracking of the cylinder head and head gasket failure.  My car had cracks in the valve seat area in both rear two cylinders which caused the problem. The water jacket area in the block around those two cylinders was almost fully packed with crud which I had to manually remove by also removing the core plugs for access. 

 

Before doing anything I would try fully flushing out the cooling system and replacing it with fresh water, no antifreeze, and see if the makes a difference.  Use water since antifreeze will tend to foam when agitated by a compression leak.  Let us know what you find. 

 

Good luck 

 

Steve D 

 

[DonMicheletti]

The '38' DO have an overflow tube that goes from the top tank to the bottom of the radiator. Often a hose is added to direct the overflow to below the chassis. There should be no leakage at the cap.

You will find numerous "overheating" issues discussed here..pretty common with these engines if things are not right and there are any number of things that can be wrong.

 

Once sorted out the cars are very reliable. They are great cars.

 

Which series is your car? Special or Century?

 

There are a lot of Buick folks down in Southern California, you should try to contact one of the local Buick clubs to see if help is available.

[kingrudy]

Hello, I was a member of the  Angeles chapter of the Buick Club of America until I moved to Asheville, North Carolina five years ago. Steve Rostam was the president at that time and he might very well still be. Try this contact info.        LOS ANGELES BCA CHAPTER
STEVE ROSTAM
PO Box 9166
Calabasas, CA 91372-9166
Tel: 818-457-4567
steveclassic@earthlink.net
Websiters ago and he would be the person that I would contact. 

[EmTee]

Here's a link to the story on my '38 Century: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/371177-1938-radiator-flow-specification/

 

Bottom-line is the radiator was badly plugged with rusty debris from the water jacket.  Flow was so restricted that when I ran at over 45 mph for more than a couple of miles, coolant was being pushed out of the overflow because the pump was pushing more water than the radiator could flow.  The fix was a radiator re-core.

 

Step 1 for your car should be a compression test - actually two tests: 1) dry and 2) wet (i.e., after putting an ounce or so of oil into the cylinder).  As shown in the linked thread, I also used hardware store plumbing fittings to pressurize the cooling system (without radiator) to 7 psi and verified it held for 30 minutes to rule out any leaks other than the radiator.

 

If your radiator is original, as mine was, it probably has some pinhole leaks which will suck air when the car is running.  If you are running ethylene glycol antifreeze (as I was) the air pulled-in by the water pump suction caused the coolant to foam, which will cause hot spots.  Lots of experience on this forum to help get you on the right path.  As I said, my new radiator seems to have solved my problem.  It was 75* here a few days ago and I drove the car ant the temp gauge ran right at 180* (I have a 160* thermostat and about 60/40 water/antifreeze).  No more puking out the overflow!

 

Oh, and make sure your lower hose has a spring inside -- especially if your radiator is restricted.  Otherwise, suction can collapse it and the only way to recover is to shut the engine off...

[Bloo]

I would like to reinforce what was said about overfilling. It isn't just non-pressurized systems either. Any car that does not have an overflow system runs with the system NOT full. Coolant or water expands, and it has to go somewhere. Airspace is designed in. This includes most cars made up until 1970 or so. On some cars you cannot see the coolant in the radiator neck unless the car is hot.

 

The white smoke, burned smell, and overheating combined does indeed sound like a head gasket, or more accurately "combustion gases in the cooling system". A cracked head or even a cracked block in some cases could do this. Don't even think that unless it has been proven. If you are in the US, you can rent a "block check kit" at Oreilly or Autozone, and they will sell you some blue fluid to use in it. This checks for combustion gas in the radiator. Do not overfill the radiator!. No coolant can come up in the blue fluid or it invalidates the test, only hot air or vapor. If the fluid stays blue, it's PROBABLY ok. If the fluid turns yellow you definitely have a combustion leak. In that case the head gasket is the most likely culprit. Look for the blown spot in the gasket when you take it apart, and if you don't find it, be sure to get the head professionally tested for cracks.

 

A leaking water pump will cause the coolant to foam up and eventually boil after enough has been lost out the overflow.

 

Some of these Buick Eights have a bypass valve on the front of the engine that may need a Buick authorized update. I don't remember offhand where that information is located. I'll bet @MCHinson knows.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

 

[MCHinson]

Yes, your car has a bypass valve that will need to be addressed. I would eliminate a blown headgasket or repair it if needed first. Next, I would follow EmTee's guidance on radiator testing/repair. After both of those have been addressed, you need to do the bypass valve conversion. I am happy to share the Torque Tube II story on that with you. I would also encourage you to check out the 36-38 Buick Club website and consider joining. http://www.3638buickclub.org/ If you contact me through the contact the webmaster link on that site, or by private message through this forum, I will be happy to send you a sample .pdf copy of a recent Torque Tube II newsletter.   

[rodneybeauchamp]

That was my first thought was to revamp the bypass valve to prevent any possibility of overheating, then diagnose from there. ( thermostat, radiator, leaks etc). There are several blogs on this site including mine that explain the process.

BTW need more photos otherwise it never happened 😊😊😊😊😊

cheers

Rodney 😊😊😊😊😊😊

[critterpainter]

Your car is a pressure system, but the pressure release is NOT built into the radiator cap.  It is that round thing on the top of the radiator with an overflow line connected to it.   The radiator cap should be a flat "sealing" cap not a pressure cap.  I would guess that the bypass device below the thermostat has issues along with a very dirty or plugged radiator.  You could also buy a test kit from NAPA to test for exhaust gas in the coolent.  Its the best way to verify a blown head gasket.

[Rock10]

1 hour ago, critterpainter said:

Your car is a pressure system, but the pressure release is NOT built into the radiator cap.  It is that round thing on the top of the radiator with an overflow line connected to it.   The radiator cap should be a flat "sealing" cap not a pressure cap.  I would guess that the bypass device below the thermostat has issues along with a very dirty or plugged radiator.  You could also buy a test kit from NAPA to test for exhaust gas in the coolent.  Its the best way to verify a blown head gasket.

Can you test the coolant without the engine running?

[critterpainter]

No, running and warmed up.  The water cannot touch the fluid in the test kit.

[Mark Shaw]

 I suggest the first thing to check is the rubber hose on the suction side of the water pump.  As the coolant heat up, the rubber becomes softer and may collapse and starve the pump.  If you can squeeze it together with your fingers, it needs to be replaced.  Most suction side hoses now come with an internal spring to prevent collapse.  This will be the simplest and least costly fix.

 

I always try the simple fixes before tearing into an engine for a more costly repair that may not be needed.

[EmTee]

8 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

As the coolant heat up, the rubber becomes softer and may collapse and starve the pump.

This situation is exacerbated by a large pressure drop across a plugged radiator.

[likeold]

I agree with all that is being said but I have a huge concern about water coming out of the exhaust. I had a flathead Ford that did this and it ended up being a cracked block. With all the possible radiator issues there is no other way for water to get into the exhaust except for a cracked head, block or bad head gasket. Did you do a compression test? Does is hold all cylinders at about 100 psi?

[Mark Shaw]

4 hours ago, likeold said:

there is no other way for water to get into the exhaust except for a cracked head, block or bad head gasket.

One other way is leaking freeze plugs.  If the ones inside the side plates are leaking, the water will drain via the push rods into the oil pan.

[likeold]

After a compression test, makes sense to do an oil change and see what's in the pan. But I don't think cooling fluid running down the push rods into the oil pan would cause water to come out of the exhaust,  I would think it needs to get in the cylinders. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by likeold (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

One other way is leaking freeze plugs.  If the ones inside the side plates are leaking, the water will drain via the push rods into the oil pan.

I don't understand. What do you mean by, "the ones inside the side plates". I am not aware of any freeze plugs that can leak water into the push rod area on a 1938 Buick engine. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

I don't understand. What do you mean by, "the ones inside the side plates". I am not aware of any freeze plugs that can leak water into the push rod area on a 1938 Buick engine. 

 

 X2!  Mark, what are you referring too?

 

  Ben

[Mark Shaw]

Check under the side plate or cover under the spark plug side for freeze plugs that may be leaking.  This was a problem I had with my 1929 Buick.  The 6 cylinder engine has two large side plates that cover the push rods.  I thought the straight 8 might be similar.   

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

That's OK, you are forgiven.  We all are entitled to a mistake now and then. I have made more than some. 

 

 But, no, at least from the 1938 on there are no core plugs on that side of the engine.

 

  Ben

[critterpainter]

Wish you were closer to Goodyear AZ, I would love to dive into that project.

[Mark Shaw]

21 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

That's OK, you are forgiven.  at least from the 1938 on there are no core plugs on that side of the engine.

 

Whew, thanks....  

[likeold]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:55 PM, Beastmode54 said:

Good evening everyone. I purchased a 1938 Buick 2 door convertible this past weekend. The vehicle seemed to drive well all weekend and this week until today. When I got home I stopped in my driveway for about 3-5 minutes and the car began to dump radiator fluid. 
 

shortly after I filled it with water to look for a leak and noticed that on the start the exhaust had a lot of white smoked and that smell of burning. I then looked in the back and saw a bunch of back stuff on my floor from the exhaust. It hadn’t done that on any of the previous starts. No notice leaks when I put water in and started it again. 
 

where do I begin guys?

Curious to know if you ever figured out why there was water in the exhaust?

[Larry Schramm]

Water in the exhaust could be just condensation from short starts & stops.  If the coolant level is not going down, then you should be fine.

 

If you look at the mufflers on modern cars, many have a small hole in the muffler on the low end to allow the condensation to drain out.