NHTSA Approves Manufacture of Low-Volume Turn-Key Replica Cars

[f.f.jones]

Replica vehicles and kit cars have long been a way for enthusiasts to get a piece of some of the greatest examples of automotive unobtainium. Thanks to the efforts of the Specialty Equipment Market Association and their partners lobbying Congress, the replica market is about to get a lot bigger. Customers in the United States will now be able to legally purchase turn-key, factory-assembled replica vehicles, based on designs more than 25 years old, now that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has officially implemented the Low Volume Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Act

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/nhtsa-approves-manufacture-of-low-volume-turn-key-replica-cars/ar-AAUzHy7?ocid=mailsignout

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

Should triple the price of fiero's

[1912Staver]

The article states the new builds will still have to comply with todays emission standards. So not the way I personally envision what a replica would look like. 

[CHuDWah]

14 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

Should triple the price of fiero's

Had one - laugh if you must, but it was the best handling car I ever drove on snow and ice.

[Billy Kingsley]

I'm genuinely happy about this. Can't wait to see them on the road.

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, CHuDWah said:

Had one - laugh if you must, but it was the best handling car I ever drove on snow and ice.

 

Not knocking the fiero itself (we never got them) just that every god awful replica seems to based on one currently 

[Guest]

 Will the new law allow only one taillight and one wiper as the OEM had?

 Pickups without rear bumper?

 

                                                        

 

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

Not knocking the fiero itself (we never got them) just that every god awful replica seems to based on one currently 

In my area Fiero's are actually fairly scarce. But as far as I know only a few replica's use them as a starting point. Most that I know of have a custom fabricated frame, Cobra's, Mid engined Factory 5's ETC. Pretty much any " replica " or builder assembled super car.

Many people want to build it themselves ; as often as not with way too much engine, but that is a conversation in itself.

A turn key , limited production , replica has to be a pretty big ticket item. Hard to say how much of a market exists for something in this segment. Higher end kit cars however seem to be doing quite well.

Quite a few years ago at the Monterey Historics there was a vender selling Cobra , and I believe GT 40 replicas. They looked pretty good, but of course way out of my reach. Turn key, just like what this new development is covering. Did it become illegal to sell replicas of this type in more recent years ? Because of the price I really have not paid any attention to these sorts of cars.

Edited March 4, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[DrData]

Now, if the feds would only approve the new BMW-engined “Plus Four”. I would cash in the IRA 8n M8 Ute to get one. Best of the traditional Morgan experience with modern tech.

[CHuDWah]

3 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

Not knocking the fiero itself (we never got them) just that every god awful replica seems to based on one currently 

Fair 'nuff.  The Fiero wasn't perfect (IMHO, no car is) but I liked it.  I'm not aware of what I would call a Fiero "replica", i.e., a ground-up reproduction.  There are plenty of parts to modify one - some pretty cool and yeah, some god awful.  Maybe it's just arguing semantics but I consider that hot-rodding rather than replicating.

[Gary_Ash]

I'm all for going green and reducing pollution, but how could 325 cars per year (max) from a small builder contribute much to the emissions load if they used original engines without smog compliance?  It's not like these are going to become high-mileage cars.  So, now we can buy a car with an old-looking body but still have to have all the burden of modern engine controls and the rest of the safety equipment.  Doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment to me.

[hidden_hunter]

25 minutes ago, CHuDWah said:

Fair 'nuff.  The Fiero wasn't perfect (IMHO, no car is) but I liked it.  I'm not aware of what I would call a Fiero "replica", i.e., a ground-up reproduction.  There are plenty of parts to modify one - some pretty cool and yeah, some god awful.  Maybe it's just arguing semantics but I consider that hot-rodding rather than replicating.

I’m talking about it being used as a basis for others

 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wgdr2z6/

[1912Staver]

Those are just cringe worthy.

Here is more along the lines of what a kit car is today . Factory 5 GTM, Chevy LS , mid engine. 

 

 

[8E45E]

26 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

I'm all for going green and reducing pollution, but how could 325 cars per year (max) from a small builder contribute much to the emissions load if they used original engines without smog compliance?  It's not like these are going to become high-mileage cars.  So, now we can buy a car with an old-looking body but still have to have all the burden of modern engine controls and the rest of the safety equipment.  Doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment to me.

When are you starting production of Studebaker Indy race cars, now that the 'prototype' is finished?? 🙃

 

Craig

[Pfeil]

52 minutes ago, CHuDWah said:

Fair 'nuff.  The Fiero wasn't perfect (IMHO, no car is) but I liked it.  I'm not aware of what I would call a Fiero "replica", i.e., a ground-up reproduction.  There are plenty of parts to modify one - some pretty cool and yeah, some god awful.  Maybe it's just arguing semantics but I consider that hot-rodding rather than replicating.

What’s perhaps most interesting here is that starting with the 1987 model year, Pontiac dealers began to officially offer a 308-style body kit for the Fiero.  Vehicles that had this bodykit were known as the ‘Fiero Mera’.  A company called Corporate Concepts completed the conversion, and none were sold as kits; all Feiro Meras were converted by Corporate Concepts and sold through dealers.  Pontiac considered this to be a specific model of the Fiero, and only 247 were made in total, before Ferrari brought legal action against Corporate Concepts.

[yachtflame]

6 hours ago, CHuDWah said:

Had one - laugh if you must, but it was the best handling car I ever drove on snow and ice.

So, what was it??

 

[Gary_Ash]

17 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

When are you starting production of Studebaker Indy race cars, now that the 'prototype' is finished?? 🙃

 

Craig

Whenever someone hands me a good check for $1 million and says, “Whatever you build, I’ll take”.  😁

 

Otherwise, go to Reklus in Argentina.

[CHuDWah]

5 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

I’m talking about it being used as a basis for others

 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wgdr2z6/

Understood, but still not what I would call a replica.

[CHuDWah]

4 hours ago, yachtflame said:

So, what was it??

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/375685-nhtsa-approves-manufacture-of-low-volume-turn-key-replica-cars/?do=findComment&comment=2341595

 

[kfle]

On 3/4/2022 at 5:15 PM, 1912Staver said:

In my area Fiero's are actually fairly scarce. But as far as I know only a few replica's use them as a starting point. Most that I know of have a custom fabricated frame, Cobra's, Mid engined Factory 5's ETC. Pretty much any " replica " or builder assembled super car.

Many people want to build it themselves ; as often as not with way too much engine, but that is a conversation in itself.

A turn key , limited production , replica has to be a pretty big ticket item. Hard to say how much of a market exists for something in this segment. Higher end kit cars however seem to be doing quite well.

Quite a few years ago at the Monterey Historics there was a vender selling Cobra , and I believe GT 40 replicas. They looked pretty good, but of course way out of my reach. Turn key, just like what this new development is covering. Did it become illegal to sell replicas of this type in more recent years ? Because of the price I really have not paid any attention to these sorts of cars.

The Vendor you are talking about that sells the Cobra, GT40, and Daytona replicas at big concours and events is a company called Superformance.  They are licensed by Shelby for the Cobra and the Daytonas and Ford for the GT 40's.  Their cars are either licensed replicas or continuation vehicles depending on which exact one you get from them.  They also are limited to a set number of year, for example they are limited to 100 total cobras per year.  They actually have a good method of production to not fall into the automotive laws such as this.  They completely build a 'roller' in south africa that is just missing the engine and trans.  They then ship the roller to their dealer in whatever country and they install the engine and trans.  This way they dont have to meet emissions and crash testing that goes into being a full on vehicle manufacturer.  The vehicles are the most like the original experience in driving these autos and are solid without having a kit car that who knows how good the builder was.  Superformance has designed the chassis and all of that to Shelby specs and approval so there is no 'doner' vehicle.  Now you may wonder why South Africa?  They have a partnership with Hi-Tech since the mid 90's.  Hi-Tech is the expert in custom automotive bodies and produces customs for rolls royce, etc, so the quality and ability is extremely high.  

 

Here is what Carrol said back when they put together the deal 'Superformance Cobra replicas are the only Cobra Replica on the market that are Authorized, Endorsed and Licensed by Shelby Licensing. As Stated by Carrol Shelby himself "Fact is, soon as it's less than a real Cobra, not built by me, it's counterfeit. There’s an exception when it comes to Jimmy Price and Lance Stander. Superformance International makes replica Cobra in South Africa and calls the two-seat roadster they build the MKIII. It's still not a true Shelby, but I've endorsed and licensed the car for being as close to correct and well-built as possible. I can't say the same for others."'

 

They are not easy to get though, as for a new Superformance Cobra it will cost you about $160k complete and there is a about a 2 year waiting list.  I have a Superformance Cobra that was built in 2003 and it is one of the most fun cars to drive and puts a smile on my face every time.  When I take it to a cars and coffee or a local cruise in, not many can distinguish it from an original 427 SC.  

 

Anyways, I am all for getting quality built specialty cars on the road as there needs to be more fun stuff to drive!

 

[TTR]

Owning/driving a fake (vintage) car is no different than wearing a fake Rolex or fake Gucci or Luis Vuitton garments (ask your wives about that one).

[1912Staver]

Yes , and no. Westfield 11 . Lotus 11. 

Not an exact replica with the Westfield. But in some ways better. Stiffer torsional strength with the Westfield. And you don't have to check it every month for cracked chassis tubes like on a Lotus built car. All that and a good chunk of $100,000.00 cheaper. Some people just like the driving experience and don't worry about the historic / investment value.

 

[kfle]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

Owning/driving a fake (vintage) car is no different than wearing a fake Rolex or fake Gucci or Luis Vuitton garments (ask your wives about that one).

That depends on how it is done and the the intent of it.  I have 9 true original antique cars and am a stickler for originality, however I would never spend $1.5M on a real shelby cobra, and if I did I wouldnt drive it once or twice a week.  So to get the same experience if you buy one that is licensed by the original makers and built to essentially the same specs, etc. then I say go for it and have fun with it!  

 

A fake rolex or fake gucci is not built to the original specs and licensed by Rolex and Gucci.  You are comparing Apples to Oranges to what I posted.  You should read this article by Jay Leno.  Leno: It’s time to let true replicas into the club - Hagerty Media

[prewarnut]

We have a number of genuine luxury good articles so I don't mind a few replicas thrown in. My wife and I did walk into Gucci recently and she had her replica on her. She pulled out a new handbag from the shelf and compared it to hers and I was cringing but the salesperson couldn't tell the difference....We were laughing later...

Edited May 8, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[Guest]

Hmmm?  Perhaps we're just looking through the opposite end of the telescope.

I'd be curious to know, if you could take one of these 1990's era Auburn replicars with it's big block Chevrolet engine, automatic transmission, disc brakes, rack & pinion steering, air conditioning, etc. back to 1935 and offer it as a comparison to those who had an authentic Auburn, what their impressions may be and which car they would feel is "better"?

 

[kfle]

14 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

Hmmm?  Perhaps we're just looking through the opposite end of the telescope.

I'd be curious to know, if you could take one of these 1990's era Auburn replicars with it's big block Chevrolet engine, automatic transmission, disc brakes, rack & pinion steering, air conditioning, etc. back to 1935 and offer it as a comparison to those who had an authentic Auburn, what their impressions may be and which car they would feel is "better"?

 

replicar is completely the wrong terminology for this car.  It is a auburn recreation, kind of like the term that was added recently for restoration where you put modern components into an antique car (restomod).  Here is the way to look at the topic

 

Auto recreation - like the example auburn or the Shay Model A.  The car was built to resemble an original older car, but the the design has been recreated to include modern components and looks.  

 

Auto Replica - An exacting or very close replica of the original car to bring the car to more people so they are able to experience the original car like it was intended.  These should be licensed by the original maker where possible

 

Continuation auto - A car that is so exact that it is continued build of the original and continues with the original serial numbers.  For example the Superformance Cobra CSX and GT40's are continuation vehicles and get new serial numbers continued from the old and can join the original registries and participate in the original events.   

 

I personally dont like Auto recreations but to each their own.  I do however think that true replicas and continuation autos are a great way to expand the auto hobby and experience.  They should be welcomed by auto enthusiasts and clubs.  There is nothing modern at all in my superformance cobra.  I still even have to manually flip the toggle switch on the dash when the engine heats up to turn the cooling fan on.  The gauges are all Smith's gauges just like the original AC had and the speedometer needle bounces around like a jumping bean so you know the speed your going plus or minus 20 🙂     

[Guest]

Uhhh... now I really need to know,

Is there a terminology rule book or something that everyone in "car world" is aware of except me? 

Because I truly hate to use the wrong terminology in a post on a public forum for fear that it will completely obscure the point I was hoping to make.

 

 

 

[Walt G]

Me too Greg , I would like to know as well. We all seek to be technically and grammatically correct . What have we missed in all the decades we have been involved in older cars?

Where is that book?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Walt G (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

As far as I know there is no book. Many of the British replica's grew out of the parts supply business from outfits that supplied repair parts for the original cars. Eventually there was a broad enough parts line that companies like Westfield and Caterham went the next step and instead of selling individual spare parts for vintage Lotus cars they started selling a kit of parts to make a complete new car. Eventually that evolved into selling assembled, complete cars. 

  With many of these cars even the original car uses a lot of parts bought in from other makers . Both Cobra's and early Lotus cars bought in things like engines, gearboxes, rear axles and front suspension parts. Lots of Ford parts on several of these cars. A few others used Chevrolet parts, and several builders used Chrysler engines.

 But the thing to bear in mind is the way the original car came about. A small concern would design a car for a very specialized purpose . They would design a frame and usually contracted the production of additional frames from one of the frame building companies, Arch motors for example. They would order in the mechanical parts from whoever had an off the shelf product most suited to their needs. Bodywork was  then contracted to a body building outfit {a few of the more up market builders did the bodywork in house , but this was relatively rare } . Finally the car was assembled by the maker and sold to the customer.

 

 So right from the start almost a kit of parts from various specialist contractors. Decades later the process is resumed, in some cases things like frames are once again built by the some outfits that built them in the first place. But in the case of Lotus at least , they are not interested in building the modern replica's or supplying parts for them , and instead license other companies like Westfield and Caterham to continue production.

[SC38dls]

Walt, you must have a first edition copy of that book if anyone does. I’m sure if you check it’s in the third stack on the left, just not sure the left of what!  
dave s 

Edited May 9, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Dave

You inspired me to check again. Nope, nothing. I did find books on 'Bodies by Wannabes' ; Cling On Coach works ( some kind of velcro attached panels) ; nothing definitive though so far as definitions of body styles. One folder was there but is really more of a sales piece then anything "Patch Panels Personified".   SO we still seek that elusive volume of totally absolute proper correctness.

Walt

[Pfeil]

On 3/4/2022 at 9:26 AM, 1912Staver said:

The article states the new builds will still have to comply with todays emission standards. So not the way I personally envision what a replica would look like. 

There have VW/Porsche kit cars for years and they only have to comply with the chassis the body is on. So there already is a way around it.

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, Walt G said:

Dave

You inspired me to check again. Nope, nothing. I did find books on 'Bodies by Wannabes' ; Cling On Coach works ( some kind of velcro attached panels) ; nothing definitive though so far as definitions of body styles. One folder was there but is really more of a sales piece then anything "Patch Panels Personified".   SO we still seek that elusive volume of totally absolute proper correctness.

Walt

 

Respectively Walt, I don't think replicas like this fall into the  " Cling on Coach works" category. Or even " Patch Panels Personified ".

 This is an early 1980's replica of a late 1950's Lotus. The ones built today are just as good or even better in some cases.

Only someone who is very well acquainted with the original cars can see any differences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are very high quality replicas.

 

 

 

[8E45E]

Does the new Morgan 'Super 3' qualify?

 

https://www.morgan-motor.com/super-3/

 

Craig

[Walt G]

I personally feel you should find an original car to restore. It has survived all these years, decades and although it may not the boy racer car you seek that was made in the day, there are many cars around that need to be saved and thoughtfully restored. The whole point for me was what was posted as to how to describe them - not a replica, not a retrofit, not a copy , not a kit car - so many experts having opinions as to what they should be called in their opinion that does not agree with what anyone else calls it.  The car you may buy to restore may not be the swoopy low to the ground car you exactly want; but is the replica? There is real and not real or no so real . If you can't find the real then go with something else , but what seems to be in favor is "the look" Buy a clone , rather then restore something. Like buying an Auburn speedster replica - I guess my tastes lean more to authenticity then fancy. To each their own what ever turns you on.....................

[1912Staver]

Well Walt, I do agree with you. And trust me , if I could find an unrestored late 1950's Lotus, at a price I could swing, I would be first in line to buy it. Unless you attend several big name English auctions , and are prepared to spend more on a genuine Lotus basket case { probably stored in a leaky shed for decades , and scavenged of any usable parts } , than a ready to use Westfield sells for there is really no option. 

 By the time the car is restored, very little of the original will still be in the finished car. So your  " genuine " car is probably little more than the original chassis plate { if you are lucky } , and bragging rights that your car is " real " . In fact probably at least 80% of the parts on your "real " car will be sourced from the same shelf the Westfield replica car is built from.  This is for a car that is " only " $80,000.00 or so more than the replica by the time the dust settles. If you want one of the handful of  very untouched cars that have survived over the decades then it is more like a $150,000.00 upcharge. 

 Once the 1980's turned into the 1990's and early Lotus, Elva, Lola, etc . prices went forever beyond my reach I latched on to a late 1950's Buckler. That is my current " boy racer " project. Actually both the Buckler and my 1977 Lola  { not to mention my 1973 Formula 3 car } are real racers rather than " boy racers " but I guess that's splitting hairs for the purpose of this conversation.

[1912Staver]

And to further muddy the waters, years ago many British factories would build a   "Works Special " for entry in high profile events. Of a higher specification than the normal production version. If the " Works " car was successful then the factory would often then turn out a limited run of cars that were labeled something along the lines of a " TT replica ", " Brooklands replica", " Le Mans Replica " etc.  . That is a limited production replica of the factory race or rally or other special event prepared car. And sold to the public as a "replica". A very slippery slope indeed, and very hard to pin down an exact definition.

Our friend Mr. Leno and his 1934 Frazer Nash , TT replica.  100% genuine, 1934 Frazer Nash.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

What if the car you dream of turns out to have a $1.1 million price tag at Pebble Beach?  Even if you could afford it, would it ever be driven on the street?  Sometimes a replica offers an opportunity to own a car that is very close to an original yet falls into the affordable category, though maybe not "cheap", but can be driven.  

 

Original 1931 Studebaker Indy car #37, sold at Pebble Beach 2019 for $1.1 million.  Photo from the auction.

 

Original Studebaker Indy car #22 (now owned by STP but permanently at the Indy Speedway Museum) and my replica of car #25 in 2021.

 

The five original Studebaker Indy cars in 1932.

[8E45E]

16 hours ago, Walt G said:

I personally feel you should find an original car to restore. It has survived all these years, decades and although it may not the boy racer car you seek that was made in the day, there are many cars around that need to be saved and thoughtfully restored. The whole point for me was what was posted as to how to describe them - not a replica, not a retrofit, not a copy , not a kit car - so many experts having opinions as to what they should be called in their opinion that does not agree with what anyone else calls it.  The car you may buy to restore may not be the swoopy low to the ground car you exactly want; but is the replica? There is real and not real or no so real . If you can't find the real then go with something else , but what seems to be in favor is "the look" Buy a clone , rather then restore something. Like buying an Auburn speedster replica - I guess my tastes lean more to authenticity then fancy. To each their own what ever turns you on.......

 

9 hours ago, Gary Ash said:

 

What if the car you dream of turns out to have a $1.1 million price tag at Pebble Beach?  Even if you could afford it, would it ever be driven on the street?  Sometimes a replica offers an opportunity to own a car that is very close to an original yet falls into the affordable category, though maybe not "cheap", but can be driven.  

Thankfully there are replicars for Hollywood to destroy, instead of the genuine article; especially for cheap B-grade movies.   Ferris Beuhller's Day Off comes to mind.

 

Craig

Edited May 10, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[supercub]

I found this replica on the road, pretty neat. I would love to see a street legal production 20s Indy dirt track racer sold.