DV8 Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 In the process of replacing a number of parts (fuel pump, alternator, AC compressor) I was removing the bracket that the alternator mounts to. It shares one bolt that fastens the water pump to the engine. It was really fighting to come out so I used the breaker bar on it and break it did. The bracket is held in place by 4 other bolts and the water pump is help in place by many too. Extracting the broken bolt without pulling the engine seems next to impossible considering how seized it was and I don't plan on pulling the engine anytime soon. I'm thinking my best option here is plugging the hole with what's left of the bolt and hope the rest of the bolts hold everything together. Does anyone have any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Remove the radiator and possibly grill. I dont think its a good idea not to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Ditto. Especially with a loose bracket. Sheared at the block plane. Looks like a weld is needed. Get some Gates hoses while your at it. All other new fuel hose is quick rot from the inside out. Sorry for your trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 I am pretty sure that is one of the timing chain cover bolts. Plan on going in deeper. Sort of like this story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegart Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Might be time to think about changing water pump and timing chain while your at it Kevin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I have learned a few lessons over the years. One of them is I can spend an enormous amount of time screwing around with something like that, or cut to the chase, pull the motor out, and fix it. Still have to learn that lesson once in a while. If one bolt broke, no question there will be others in a similar state. I will confess to having gotten lucky once when a left hand drill bit backed out a broken stud. That one, however, had broken due to a loose AC compressor mount on an old Volvo. It was not rusted in place, or seized due to dissimilar metals. My thinking at the time was "take this shot, and if it doesn't work the motor is coming out". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 David, For the most part the engine DOES NOT have to be removed. Will it make it easier??? Probably not. It CAN be done in the car. A trick I learned MANY years ago was to spray some penetrant on the bolts, MANY times, before trying to remove ANY water pump bolts. This goes for ANYONE doing their own work. You need to have patience & use your due diligence before proceeding any further. After spraying let the penetrant sit for an hour or so & then hit the head of the bolts squarely with a pretty big hammer. What this does is kinda vibrate the bolt & penetrate will gradually wick it's way down to the threads. Do this for about a week or so 2-3-4 times a day with a few hours in between. This should get some penetrate down to the threads & also loosen any corrosion from dis-similar metals. Then slowly work the bolts, easily, back & forth until they normally will eventually come out WITHOUT breaking. The 4/1/4" bolts are usually the ones that break the easiest. The next bolt that gives problems is the one above the bolt that broke. You could even spray the broken bolt with penetrate & hit it with a FLAT punch & hammer to help to loosen up the corrosion between the T/C cover & the bolt shank. I'll almost guarantee the bolt is NOT seized in the block but the corrosion is holding onto the cover from the corrosion for dear life. Take your time & don't rush. Where you going to go anyway. AND, depending on where you live your probably not going for a ride anytime soon. While your at it now's a good time to do the timing chain & gears. IF plastic teeth are missing from the timing chain cam gear it would be advisable to drop the pan & get the plastic bits out of the pan & oil pick-up screen. AGAIN, this can be accomplished with the engine in the vehicle & I can run you through it. IF you do a search I've written about this procedure previously. ALL this stuff is readily available at most any auto parts store. The new bolts can be purchased at just about ANY hardware store. If you want to install a modern front seal I ALSO have them in stock. Time for some work. Tom T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) Probably shouldn't comment as I have not had coffee yet this morning but here goes. That looks like one of the 5/16" bolts that go through about 3" of the timing cover. It did NOT break because the threads were tight in block. It broke because the aluminum timing cover is oxidized to the steel bolt essentially welding them together. Not sure if there is any of the bolt stud left that is flush or slightly above cover when the bracket is removed. If so you or someone experienced could weld a nut to what's left of the stud. You may need to remove water pump to expose enough of the stud to weld to. Obviously this requires experience. And even if you do that, you will need many heat and cool cycles to break down the oxidation then a final heat up the timing cover around the bolt just before attempting to unwind. This is assuming a nut can be welded on. If its broken off below the surface of timing cover you'll need to try removing timing cover but that WILL BE be a challenge because what's left of bolt is frozen to the cover. You might end up destroying the cover unless great patience and expertise is exercised. Plus you have to extract all the other bolts without digging a deeper hole. I could be wrong on above but if I am right, I think I'd try leaving it as-is and see what happens. You have nothing to lose at this point as repairing it could easily turn into a no turning back big project. As many do, I learned the hard way about removing water pump bolts about 40 years ago. But there is a way. They can all be removed without breaking using proper techniques and patience. The human nature to want to turn that bolt without taking proper precautions thinking you can determine if the whole thing is turning or the head is twisting off has caused many of us to suffer the ugly consequences! Edited January 27, 2022 by JZRIV (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 My next plan of action will be to pull the radiator, condenser and fan to make some room and try to remove the water pump. Most of, if not all, of the 10 or 11 bolts will put up a fight coming out. I've already started the penetrant/hammer tap/repeat process on the ones I can reach but I'm expecting I'll have to drill out and rethread at least the one (now two) that are already broken. Can anyone confirm whether the one that holds the alternator mounting bracket is or isn't a 3" bolt that goes through the timing chain cover? It's the one circled in the photo. I'd love it if I could just get the water pump off, drill out any broken studs, re-tap any threads, replace the water pump if necessary (although it seemed fine) and put it all back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 it is NOT nec. to remove the A/C condenser. IF your afraid/concerned of somehow damaging it cover it with a layer or two of cardboard & use tape to hold them in place. Yes that bolt is approx. 3" long. What other bolt broke??? Again, take your time & keep spraying & hammering. After the other bolts are removed it appears the the 1st. broken bolt will extend past the front of the cover after the W/P is rmoved. Take a GOOD pair of ViseGrips & clamp it tightly to the protruding bolt & start twisting back & forth. IF it's still too tight soak & hammer some more or use a propane torch to heat up the cover in that area. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 As for the AC condenser, part of this whole original project was to replace the compressor and dryer so the system has already been evacuated and open. If I'm pulling the radiator, pulling the condenser is an easy no brainer. Looks like I'll have to get the water pump off one way or another. The other bolt that broke was the easiest one to reach, top driver's side. It twisted off with significantly less torque than the first one. It's clearly only 1" long and terminates at the timing chain cover. Here's my next question: once I get the water pump off, let's just say the timing chain cover has to come off too. Is that just a matter of loosening all those bolts, and popping it off, cleaning it, maybe re-primer it, replace a gasket and a seal and bolt it back on (with new bolts and freshly tapped threads)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 There's two oil pan bolts that need to be removed also. IF, once you get the cover off send a pic the same as was sent of a new one at the same angle to check on it's condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) Some progress made. Still in a backwards direction but progress nonetheless. Got the water pump off. The small bolts came off easily. The large long ones put up a fight but with the penetrant/tap/repeat method I was able to get the rest out without breaking anything else. There was little to grab onto on the broken stud but not enough and what was left twisted off trying the vice grip method. The bolts that I could reach on the timing chain cover broke easily so I'm assuming the rest will. At this point I'm thinking of pulling the timing chain cover, do what I need to do to get that broken stud out, probably retap the threads and then start moving forward back to zero again. Here's my next question: looks like I need to remove the pulley wheel and the harmonic balancer before I remove the timing chain cover. Pulley wheel looks like I need to remove 6 bolts. How does one pull the harmonic balancer and is there anything I need to be aware of? It looks like one center bolt about 1 1/2". I definitely do not have a socket that size. All of your advice has been very helpful in getting this baby back together. Edited February 2, 2022 by DV8 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 I used a puller to remove my harmonic balancer after i removed the center bolt. When you replace the harmanoc balancer its imperative that the center bolt get torqued to 250 ft. Lbs. i made a tool to hold the harmonic balancer when torquing down bolt. Good luck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 hours ago, DV8 said: Some progress made. Still in a backwards direction but progress nonetheless. Got the water pump off. The small bolts came off easily. The large long ones put up a fight but with the penetrant/tap/repeat method I was able to get the rest out without breaking anything else. There was little to grab onto on the broken stud but not enough and what was left twisted off trying the vice grip method. The bolts that I could reach on the timing chain cover broke easily so I'm assuming the rest will. At this point I'm thinking of pulling the timing chain cover, do what I need to do to get that broken stud out, probably retap the threads and then start moving forward back to zero again. Here's my next question: looks like I need to remove the pulley wheel and the harmonic balancer before I remove the timing chain cover. Pulley wheel looks like I need to remove 6 bolts. How does one pull the harmonic balancer and is there anything I need to be aware of? It looks like one center bolt about 1 1/2". I definitely do not have a socket that size. All of your advice has been very helpful in getting this baby back together. The balancer is not a press fit, they usually slide off with no problem. Sometimes they need a little persuasion but a puller should not be necessary. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) I realized I probably don't need to remove the pulley before the balancer and I can just remove them as a unit right? 1. Where do I get (what looks like about) a 1 1/4" socket for that giant bolt in the center of the balancer? 2. Do I need to mark the position so the mark on the balancer stays at TDC or is the balancer on a fixed position on the shaft? 3. If that thing is 250 fps torqued on there how do I hold it in place to loosen the bolt? The shop manual just says: "...remove... crankshaft balancer..." 🤪 Edited February 2, 2022 by DV8 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, DV8 said: I realized I probably don't need to remove the pulley before the balancer and I can just remove them as a unit right? 1. Where do I get (what looks like about) a 1 1/2" socket for that giant bolt in the center of the balancer? 2. Do I need to mark the position so the mark on the balancer stays at TDC or is the balancer on a fixed position on the shaft? 3. If that thing is 250 fps torqued on there how do I hold it in place to loosen the bolt? The shop manual just says: "...remove... crankshaft balancer..." 🤪 When I pulled that stuff off the 425 in my ‘64, I was able to borrow all that stuff from the local jobbers. The key way only lets the balancer go on the crank one way. Remove the starter and hold the starter ring to keep the engine from turning or remove the crank pulleys and bolt a bar to the balancer. Edited February 2, 2022 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Usually the pulley does NOT need to be removed. The big bolt is normally 1 1/8th. inch. I have seen some at 1 1/16th. inch. The bolt is very tight so you need to hold the engine from turning. A big screwdriver on the teeth of the flywheel or a bar with a pipe & with said pipe firmly on the floor just tap the starter & the bolt will break lose. Usually the balancer will come off by hand or a tap or two from behind will loosen it up enough to remove the rest of the way by hand. THEY ARE NOT A PRESS FIT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 Timing chain cover is off! Cover is shot and replacement on the way but thankfully no damage to the block. Everyone who posted was right. The stud came out of the block easily. It was the shank of the bolt that was welded to the timing chain cover. Before I start putting everything back together should I muck with the timing chain? No missing teeth as far as I can see and I tried to give an indication of how much slack is in the chain in the latter two photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 That looks like too much slop. You are there , change the chain and gears. You will be glad you did! Will run noticeably better. This is assuming that the chain slop is not the result of a line bore , in which case the slop is permanent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 The chain & gears have been replaced previously. I would just change the chain as the gears would be OK as far as I'm concerned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Just a general word of caution, try to avoid hardware store bolts. The length of many automotive bolts are not the same as standard over the counter bolts. Sometimes a bolt in a blind hole may bottom out or an open hole may have something that could interfere on the same plane. I ran into a situation on a 429 Cadillac where hardware store bolts were used on the exhaust manifold and one pressed against a head bolt. Seemed fine until the head bolt was removed to mount a bracket. It ended in a stripped head bolt and bock hole because they put it back in. For your instance I would take the time to source a few original bolts from a parts engine or be very careful about selecting the replacement bolt. I may be over cautious but it has to be a real last resort to put in a different length (even sawed off) or head style. When I did the Cadillac it ended up costing close to $3,000 to fix it. The customer paid, I learned. Just be conscious of every little detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 5 hours ago, telriv said: The chain & gears have been replaced previously. I would just change the chain as the gears would be OK as far as I'm concerned. I have zero experience with timing chains and gears and you seem to have a lot but that goes against everything that I have read on the subject. In your experience that won't cause any issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 A sloppy timing chain throws off your timing. Its advancing and retarding you ignition timing every time you're on and off the throttle. It's easy to replace. You're already there, do it now. I'm betting that you can move the crank quite a few degrees and not move the camshaft which drives the distributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 NO, When your stepping on the "Go" pedal ALL the slack is removed from the chain. The ONLY time it can cause any timing problems, & someone un-experienced wouldn't even notice it, is when you remove your foot from the gas pedal & your in coasting mode. Save yourself a few $$$ & just replace the chain. IF for some reason you had to remove the cover again in a couple thousand miles I would almost guarantee the chain would be almost as sloppy as it is now. So much of this stuff is now made off shore & the quality is dubious at best. I wouldn't even suggest this unless I was absolutely certain. Now IF it was the original plastic coated teeth aluminum gear no matter what I would replace it. IF you go back to the plastic style gear I have BRAND NEW Cloyes OEM gears in stock. Tom T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 It looks like I can order a timing set (chain+gears) from C.A.R.S. for $170 and I can have (what looks like from photos) the exact same set from AutoZone at my door for $65. The chain alone will be about $25-$30. As stated I don't know a lot about timing chains but I do know a lot about bicycle chains and what I know is that the chains and gears wear together. I understand that keeping the same gears may not affect the timing but my hypothesis is that replacing only the chain will result in a slightly more particles of metal in the oil than normal which should all get filtered out. My thinking is: Since I have to take both gears off to replace the chain anyways I'll go with the AutoZone set and replace everything. The difference of about $40 bucks is worth peace of mind. If the C.A.R.S. set was the only option I'd lean toward just replacing the chain. Am I being rational here? Again, thanks everyone for helping me through this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 David, You need to do what you need to do for you & what makes you feel most comfortable. I was just giving you my advice. What you do with it is totally up to you. Tom T. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWB Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I’d go with his Cloyes. My ‘67 original gears showed no wear or cracks. Absolutely stay away from new stuff if you can. Its all garbage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 There are a couple of rules when working on Nailheads. First one, is listen to Tom. Second one is listen to Tom. Third one is, if you didn't listen to Tom, you are going down the wrong path. Your results may vary. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I must remind ALL, "No one died & left me God". We ALL have our own opinions about things & the way we go about implementing those opinions. One needs to do what they feel most comfortable doing. Even after doing mounds of research you come to your own conclusions. Tom T. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 OK well, Riv is back together and running well again. New timing chain & gears, timing chain cover, water pump, fuel pump, alternator, AC compressor & dryer, all engine block threads re-tapped, all new bolts, related gaskets, hoses & hose clamps, timing set, idle adjusted, etc. Thanks for everyone's help! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 ...more photos: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 Hopefully that "New" T/C cover is not porous like the ones in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 ...and here's what's left of the bolt that put up such a fight. I won. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Very nice centering job. You will be an old man with a gray beard and still remember how slick that centered. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 So, that's apparently the section of the shank that was frozen to the timing cover... I was thinking about this the other day and wondered whether drilling a small hole in the cover perpendicular to the shank to insert a PB-Blaster or WD-40 or ________ straw and spraying would be an option. Would anything leak out of such a tiny hole if the bolt threads are sealed? If so, it seems that filling the hole with epoxy before reinstalling it would take care of it. Actually, I'd be tempted to make the location obvious, even if plugged, so that it could be recommissioned in the future if needed. Did you happen to apply any anti-seize to the bolts before you installed them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 Yeah. All the new bolts got a nice dose of anti-seize, threads and shanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGerman Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 On 2/20/2022 at 4:13 PM, EmTee said: So, that's apparently the section of the shank that was frozen to the timing cover... I was thinking about this the other day and wondered whether drilling a small hole in the cover perpendicular to the shank to insert a PB-Blaster or WD-40 or ________ straw and spraying would be an option. Would anything leak out of such a tiny hole if the bolt threads are sealed? If so, it seems that filling the hole with epoxy before reinstalling it would take care of it. Actually, I'd be tempted to make the location obvious, even if plugged, so that it could be recommissioned in the future if needed. Did you happen to apply any anti-seize to the bolts before you installed them? I like this idea and will give it a trial. Drilled 2mm holes and filled it with magic mystery Oil. did not jet reach the bolts on the side with radiator installed. That will be next. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 I hope it works for you! 🤞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted November 9, 2023 Share Posted November 9, 2023 13 hours ago, OldGerman said: I like this idea and will give it a trial. Drilled 2mm holes and filled it with magic mystery Oil. To elaborate, this is to prepare for eventual disassembly or to retard corrosion of dis-similar metals. Not so much freeing steel threads in cast iron block. Bolt shanks are long. Will require repeated applications for penetrant to wick-up the full length. FYI, we only learn of broken bolts and corroded water pump cavities. I just did this in June. Following helpful tips on this Forum, much soaking, tapping and rocking of bolts and all came out. Upon re-assembly, I re-used all 60 year old bolts lathered with Kop-R-Kote on threads and shanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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