Broken water pump bolt

[EmTee]

5 hours ago, XframeFX said:

To elaborate, this is to prepare for eventual disassembly or to retard corrosion of dis-similar metals. Not so much freeing steel threads in cast iron block.

Bolt shanks are long. Will require repeated applications for penetrant to wick-up the full length.

The idea is to free-up and lubricate the shank of the bolt that passes through the cover.  Apparently some people have had bolts break at the shank which can make cover removal without damage difficult.  If the bolt threads are sealed during reassembly there should be no coolant leakage through the small holes added for application of the penetrating oil.

[OldGerman]

All bolts came loose without too much of an resistance. 

The critical long bolts were soacked with ATF/Aceton for a few days through the small side bores and the crusty corrosion was mostly dissolved. I‘m a step closer to the Timing chain swap now. Next will be to break loose the balancer bolt.

[60FlatTop]

The first thing I am going to do when I get out in the garage today is look at my sliding Tee-handles! All of them.

[XframeFX]

13 hours ago, OldGerman said:

Next will be to break loose the balancer bolt.

Frank, I just did this back in June. I bent a crowbar, then holed sawed a 2X4 to hold the balancer and it simply splintered to pieces. Proceeded to make another and strengthened it with 3.5" screws because I'd need it for torquing that bolt upon re-assembly. I didn't trust my torque wrenches so googled on how to calibrate my least worst torque wrench. I spent 3 days struggling with the installation of the new crankshaft sprocket. Typical Riviera. Could've been worse. Grateful all bolts came out with no problem. They were fine to re-install after cleaning and lathering them with Kopr-Kote on the threads and shanks.

Similar to the Alternator Nut, an impact wrench is the way to go for removing the balancer bolt, no fixture needed for dis-assembly.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[OldGerman]

 Good Point. I have compressed air but no impact wrench. I will borow a powertool from somewhere. 😏

[OldGerman]

1 minute ago, OldGerman said:

 Good Point. I have compressed air but no impact wrench. I will borow a powertool from somewhere. 😏

I‘m more concerned about the 1“ nut with 1/2“ drive will Crack.

[XframeFX]

1 hour ago, OldGerman said:

I‘m more concerned about the 1“ nut with 1/2“ drive will Crack.

1/2" should be fine for 220 ft. lbs.

I borrowed a neighbour's DeWalt 1/2" cordless impact wrench and 2 seconds on the trigger!

 

This is on re-assembly with new roller timing chain. There are two 3.5" wood screws to strengthen the 2X4.

 

[XframeFX]

53 minutes ago, XframeFX said:

This is on re-assembly with new roller timing chain.

Strongly recommend incrementally barring over crankshaft with new timing chain and checking chain tension along the way. There might be run-out.

Don't forget that oil slinger before torquing down that Nut!

[telriv]

Looks like you purchased a NEW plastic timing gear.

I now have those in stock made by CLOYES.

For those who want piece of mind & quieter running gears.

 

Tom T.

[EmTee]

15 hours ago, telriv said:

I now have those in stock made by CLOYES.

NOS or NNS (i.e., recently manufactured replacements)?

[60FlatTop]

I am going to do a job that will require torquing my Nailhead 425 crank pulley bolt over the winter. My torque wrench is rated 0-250. I am going to get a 0-400 rated wrench to keep the 225 ft-lbs in the midrange of the scale.

[telriv]

The Cloyes are NOS.

 

Tom T.

[XframeFX]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I am going to do a job that will require torquing my Nailhead 425 crank pulley bolt over the winter. My torque wrench is rated 0-250. I am going to get a 0-400 rated wrench to keep the 225 ft-lbs in the midrange of the scale.

That would be a 3/4" drive?

I calibrated my torque wrench for 80lbs and calculated the correction factor for 220 lbs hoping all is linear. Good enough!

 

23 hours ago, telriv said:

Looks like you purchased a NEW plastic timing gear.

I now have those in stock made by CLOYES.

For those who want piece of mind & quieter running gears.

That image was from Dundee's strip of a rebuilt nailhead out of storage.

 

I used a modified 9-keyway SA Gear HD roller set and was concerned about no longer having silent operation of that Morse chain. With the roller set installed, what noise? With that viscous fan roaring away and exhaust note, that's all I hear!

[gungeey]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:46 AM, OldGerman said:

I‘m more concerned about the 1“ nut with 1/2“ drive will Crack.

Make sure to look your washer over

[EmTee]

I would come up with a way to lock the ring gear against the bellhousing rather than trying to hold the damper.

[gungeey]

16 minutes ago, EmTee said:

I would come up with a way to lock the ring gear against the bellhousing rather than trying to hold the damper.

Or 6 ft of clothesline in a easy to access spark plug hole, just time it in the compression cycle when the valves will be closed based on whether you are tightening or loosening the balancer bolt.

Quick n easy

[XframeFX]

11 hours ago, gungeey said:

Make sure to look your washer over

Never occurred to me to examine that washer being so thick and heavy duty. I took pictures of everything but not that washer.

I wonder how it got that way. So much scrutiny on applying enough torque. Wonder if it was over torqued?

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, XframeFX said:

So much scrutiny on applying enough torque. Wonder if it was over torqued?

Or under-torqued for a long time...

[gungeey]

12 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Or under-torqued for a long time...

Or repeatedly properly torqued 🔧

[OldGerman]

19 hours ago, gungeey said:

Or 6 ft of clothesline in a easy to access spark plug hole, just time it in the compression cycle when the valves will be closed based on whether you are tightening or loosening the balancer bolt.

Quick n easy

No 1 cylinder is at TDC now for changing Timing chain. Good idea !!

[RivNut]

 

5 hours ago, OldGerman said:

No 1 cylinder is at TDC now for changing Timing chain. Good idea !!

On the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke?

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, RivNut said:

On the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke?

Needs to be compression stroke for the timing marks on the sprockets to align.  Remove the distributor cap and verify that the rotor is pointed to the #1 plug wire on the cap.

[OldGerman]

Balancer bolt came loose easily. I‘ve noticed there was one of the small  1/4“ bolt Borken in the Timing chain cover from a previous  pump change. 

 

[OldGerman]

I‘m glad to have the timing chain repair on this winter project List. Next seoson could have ended in a desaster.

The Timing chain is very sloppy and the plastic is very brittle and loose.

 

[1965rivgs]

22 minutes ago, OldGerman said:

Balancer bolt came loose easily. I‘ve noticed there was one of the small  1/4“ bolt Borken in the Timing chain cover from a previous  pump change. 

 

  If the balancer bolt came loose easily make sure to check the key and keyway in the balancer for wear.

Tom Mooney

[OldGerman]

3 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

  If the balancer bolt came loose easily make sure to check the key and keyway in the balancer for wear.

Tom Mooney

What I wanted to say is, the bolt came off easily with the method explained before. The bolt itself was thight and the power  impact wrench I got was not capable to loose it. So I blocked the piston after TDC with a soft rope through spark Plug hole and a Long extension pipe on the wrench made it.

[telriv]

That timing case cover needs replacement because of ALL the water cavitation from moving coolant.

Do yourself a favor & do it now.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

[OldGerman]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:42 PM, telriv said:

That timing case cover needs replacement because of ALL the water cavitation from moving coolant.

Do yourself a favor & do it now.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

Tom, what did you experienced will happen with such cavitation. Water leaking, or Poor Pump Performance ? It only Looks like a Surface

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by OldGerman (see edit history)

[telriv]

Poor water circulation causing the engine to run hotter than normal.

The surface has been compromised by the cavitation.

Proper tolerances are acritical part of the proper operation of the cooling system.

Might as well change it now than later to find out you really needed to change it.

Why do the job twice???

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

Edited December 3, 2023 by telriv (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:42 AM, 1965rivgs said:

If the balancer bolt came loose easily make sure to check the key and keyway in the balancer for wear.

Something to be said removing the balancer bolt by hand.  Not noticeable using an impact.

On 12/1/2023 at 10:23 AM, OldGerman said:

The Timing chain is very sloppy and the plastic is very brittle and loose.

All morse chains become loose with minimal mileage. It's those cracks that are the ticking time bomb. My sprocket had only 1 crack. But, when I purposely mis-aligned the crankshaft sprocket to tighten-up" the original chain for a dry run degree'ing the camshaft, a chunk of nylon broke off.

I wanted to familiarize myself how to degree a camshaft and acquire "as-found" data. Turns-out, I did not change the camshaft. Repeating the process with the new timing chain (as-left" data) produced the same results in the 0 degree keyway. The repeat took only 15 minutes and glad to have the data.

 

Recommend barring over the crankshaft with the new timing chain to check chain tightness before assembly. There could be run-out!

 

On 12/1/2023 at 1:42 PM, telriv said:

That timing case cover needs replacement because of ALL the water cavitation from moving coolant

Hmm? I thought timing cover replacement would be required because of improper cooling system maintenance allowing corrosion of the aluminum water pump cavitiy? Cavitation is new one on me.

Replacement timing chain covers come with a new crankshaft seal on the exterior.

 

[Rockable]

A pump draws a vacuum (low pressure) at its inlet, allowing fluid to enter the pump. If there is some restriction, it will not draw a full slug of fluid and will have some small voids in the fluid. As those voids are exposed to pressure, they collapse or implode. This implosion gradually eats away at the metal surfaces. (It is much more pronounced in a high pressure pump, because the implosion is more violent.) 

 

Operating the engine with a restricted (partially plugged) radiator, for example, will cause cavitation. It is a slow gradual process in the cooling system due to the lower pressures, but operating it over a long time will create this wear.

[XframeFX]

2 hours ago, Rockable said:

operating it over a long time will create this wear.

Good thing replacement Chinese water pumps have the larger drive-end bearing.

Cavitation is not unlike white noise where energy is spread over a broad band.

[60FlatTop]

I am looking at the path of water flow differently on this. The low side of the pump is from the lower radiator hose through the casting in the pump cover into the center of the impeller. The vanes discharge radially into the area behind the impeller and enter the block through the squarish opening on the back side. that would put all of this mentioned wear area on the pressurized discharge side. No real chance for cavitation.

 

The picture of this new timing chain cover doesn't look much different than the one pictured

 

 

I have run into the porosity issue on the cover once before. I don't think I would condemn a timing chain cover until all the other facets of the cooling system had been addressed and I actually saw a temperature control problem.

A lot of cars are out there with convoluted flex hose that I think can be more of a problem. It was designed for straight bore molded hose. I see a lot of cars running without a thermostat. That is the point where the high and low side of the flow is established. Without one the internal block pressure may be too low. Belts of the correct size are harder to get. There are quite a few variables in cooling performance that really need detailed care.

The precautions are all things I do on my own cars.

[XframeFX]

Yes, while that difficult cover is off, change it if failing an inspection.

 

Failure mode of a die-cast piece would be a fracture (crack).

 

There was mention of a failing nailhead impeller that was kept contained within the timing cover cavity but due to the rub, caused damage. It still held pressure.

 

As for cavitation and associated engine noise, you'd never know without an accelerometer mounted. Where to mount? Can't use a magnetic pickup being aluminum. Also, without baseline data, how to recognize a bad profile?

 

And I agree, the design should prevent cavitation from occuring. More likely to have air trapped in the system.

[OldGerman]

I‘m not a cavitation expert, But Somehow you could imagine why the Surface has pitting in certain areas by following the water stream. I‘m not concerend that the surface pitting will lead to a water leak or loss of pump volume. So I will use this timing chain cover because it is a original Quality piece made from high pressure die cast, and not a gravity sand cast with potential Porosity.

I just need to get the broken 1/4“ bolt out of that pocket at the left outlet. 

 

it looks like there is a Lot of water turbulence  in the area of the cold water Outlet ports in the „turbine“ Housing at the edge Leading into the small passages at the top and bottom of the housing. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by OldGerman
Edit errors (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I have owned a lot of Buicks and have been able to get away with two broken 1/4-20 cover bolts using Leak Lock. It is made mainly for refrigeration work. I clean the area, give the gasket a good coat, and let it sit overnight. I know it will seal with two missing.

 

On my Riviera I used hardened black Allen head screws. They tend to resist rust better than standard steel bolts.

 

[gungeey]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:48 PM, 60FlatTop said:

I have owned a lot of Buicks and have been able to get away with two broken 1/4-20 cover bolts using Leak Lock. It is made mainly for refrigeration work. I clean the area, give the gasket a good coat, and let it sit overnight. I know it will seal with two missing.

 

On my Riviera I used hardened black Allen head screws. They tend to resist rust better than standard steel bolts.

 

I'm going to try this goop on this oil pan bolts since every other goop seems to seep. I'll let you know in a couple years