1965 Riviera for sale---Daniel Schmitt.Co--

[Wayne R]

Would a moderator or other more experience member mind pasting this 38000 miles,$100.000

example on to our forum here,---i dont know how to .many thanks  to member  for doing this,

Reason is , although a very nice example,---lots of small items  in correctly  restored or not correct.

[JZRIV]

https://www.schmitt.com/inventory/1965-buick-gransport-717/

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[RIVNIK]

It's pretty nice, but I don't see how it's worth that kind of moolah. They should drop the price $50,000 for the paint chipped off from the heater controls & around the radio knobs, the ill-fitting trunk lid emblem gasket, & the pry-marks on the glove box lid. C'mon! My Riv has those features too.

[Pat Curran]

As I mentioned on the other thread, the dealer has the color listed as Sahara Mist.  It is not Sahara Mist.  It looks white to me but not quite the stock Arctic White.  

[60FlatTop]

That Riviera is a low end car compared to the general inventory. They have to price it in line with the rest. It is a marketing thing.

 

Many years ago I sold expensive restoration products at flea markets. I sourced some products I used myself but the cost was low. I had to mark them up to match my other items or it just looked wrong.

 

Achmitt has been around a long time and I enjoy the quality of the cars in their ads. They know what it is worth and a serious buyer would get it at a fair market price. It is high to maintain parity and keep customers from getting confused.

[ericisback]

3 hours ago, RIVNIK said:

It's pretty nice, but I don't see how it's worth that kind of moolah. They should drop the price $50,000 for the paint chipped off from the heater controls & around the radio knobs, the ill-fitting trunk lid emblem gasket, & the pry-marks on the glove box lid. C'mon! My Riv has those features too.

Based on your post, am I correct that you think this grand sport is only worth $50k?

[Pat Curran]

1 hour ago, ericisback said:

Based on your post, am I correct that you think this grand sport is only worth $50k?

If someone wants it bad enough, they may pay the asking price.  It looks like a nice car but it has had a color change.  The glove box door hinge is broken  (very common) and I noticed the wood veneer on the doors and rear panels are missing the black pinstripe which would be correct for 1965.  It is a very presentable car as is and I am not knocking it, but it won't score 400 points at a BCA event either.  The market is all over the place with these cars.  The black on black one that sold on BaT a few weeks ago for well over $100K had needs as well but someone wanted it bad enough and ponied up the dough.

[moran75]

Is it me or is every 65 Riv for sale anywhere a GS? for such a rare car seems to be a lot about 😀

[Seafoam65]

19 minutes ago, moran75 said:

Is it me or is every 65 Riv for sale anywhere a GS? for such a rare car seems to be a lot about 😀

You may be on to something.........I agree that it is hard to believe that there are so many of these nice 

GS Rivieras out there for sale

given the low production number.......I think there must be a lot of clones out there. It is my guess that a lot of them

are Frankenstein cars where they take all the GS stuff off of a rusted out heap in a junkyard and install the rear end, trans and

engine into a regular 65 Riviera. Also VIN and body tag swaps are likely taking place. In the Pontiac hobby, this has been

done to GTO Judges in large numbers........I personally know of about ten gorgeous frame off Judges that are in reality tag swap cars.

Same thing with 1970 LS6  454 Chevelles.......more for sale at any one time than were actually produced.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Pat Curran]

14 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

You may be on to something.........I agree that it is hard to believe that there are so many of these nice 

GS Rivieras out there for sale

given the low production number.......I think there must be a lot of clones out there. It is my guess that a lot of them

are Frankenstein cars where they take all the GS stuff off of a rusted out heap in a junkyard and install the rear end, trans and

engine into a regular 65 Riviera. Also VIN and body tag swaps are likely taking place. In the Pontiac hobby, this has been

done to GTO Judges in large numbers........I personally know of about ten gorgeous frame off Judges that are in reality tag swap cars.

Same thing with 1970 LS6  454 Chevelles.......more for sale at any one time than were actually produced.

Lots of clones out there for sure and buyers really need to do their homework.  Build sheets and a paper trail with a known history are very important.  There are more mid-year big block Corvettes on the road today than what the factory ever built.  

[ericisback]

3 hours ago, Pat Curran said:

Lots of clones out there for sure and buyers really need to do their homework.  Build sheets and a paper trail with a known history are very important.  There are more mid-year big block Corvettes on the road today than what the factory ever built.  

You are exactly correct. And, there is no way to actually authenticate an original gran sport, unless you have authenticated documentation.  All the GS upgrades can be taken from other cars.  

[RivNut]

I think that if you really know what to look for, you should be able to sort out the clones.  

[ericisback]

17 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I think that if you really know what to look for, you should be able to sort out the clones.  

YOU could do it, but MOST people don’t have your expertise, or anywhere close!

[telriv]

Numbers & date codes do matter.

 

Tom T.

[65VerdeGS]

The Max Balchowsky Gran Sport on BaT 'only' got bid up to $65,000 and didn't meet reserve.  That car looked like the real deal, with documentation, but brought far less money than the red-line tired black Gran Sport that was sold not long ago, also on BaT.  I'm curious why the Balcholwky car didn't go higher, and can see why the seller wouldn't let it go at the bid price.  Did the added sunroof affect it's value?  Otherwise it looked like a very good car.

 

The black GS that sold for $121,000 had minor issues, like incorrect redline tires, etc.  Seems that black cars can command a healthy premium, and maybe the Balchowsky car in Seafoam green just didn't attract as many potential buyers.  

 

I'm sure with rising values there is more incentive for the nefarious to clone a '65 Gran Sport.  Like with other higher value cars (e.g. big-block Corvettes), it sure pays to do your due diligence by hiring an expert to verify the fact that the car is a Gran Sport.  I can only think of a few people in our hobby that know enough to inspect and authenticate a genuine Gran Sport (Tom Mooney is one). 

 

Tom, do you provide such a service to potential Riviera buyers?

 

[ericisback]

9 minutes ago, 65VerdeGS said:

The Max Balchowsky Gran Sport on BaT 'only' got bid up to $65,000 and didn't meet reserve.  That car looked like the real deal, with documentation, but brought far less money than the red-line tired black Gran Sport that was sold not long ago, also on BaT.  I'm curious why the Balcholwky car didn't go higher, and can see why the seller wouldn't let it go at the bid price.  Did the added sunroof affect it's value?  Otherwise it looked like a very good car.

 

The black GS that sold for $121,000 had minor issues, like incorrect redline tires, etc.  Seems that black cars can command a healthy premium, and maybe the Balchowsky car in Seafoam green just didn't attract as many potential buyers.  

 

I'm sure with rising values there is more incentive for the nefarious to clone a '65 Gran Sport.  Like with other higher value cars (e.g. big-block Corvettes), it sure pays to do your due diligence by hiring an expert to verify the fact that the car is a Gran Sport.  I can only think of a few people in our hobby that know enough to inspect and authenticate a genuine Gran Sport (Tom Mooney is one). 

 

Tom, do you provide such a service to potential Riviera buyers?

 

As a recent buyer in the market, I can give you my 2cents:

 

-I think the sunroof hurt the price. IMHO, a buyer paying top dollar, USUALLY wants a car as original as possible. 

-I do think the color hurt the price. As with other cars, certain shades bring more money than others. 
 

-I don’t think the famous previous owner helped the price. IMHO, buyers paying top dollar, are more concerned about the car’s condition, and the originality,  than who owned it before. I think a complete chain of title is more important than who actually owned the car. 
 

-IMHO, regarding GS’s, documentation is key!  With the ease of creating clones, the better the documentation, the higher the price. 

of course, I could be completely wrong!

[Wayne R]

Thank you  Jason  for listing this for me, as i thought it would be of interest to most  Riviera owners.

I will start  by saying that although  most think that  65 GS  are  selling  for  more than you are used to,---think again---

you know how great and  terrific these  great classics are like, perhaps they  are about 10 years  late in there   price increases,

look at other makes and models, Chevrolets, Pontiacs, Cadillacs, and others,   have been above Buick in most cases for years

depending on models ---,and i know that a 65 Riviera takes a lot  to beat  for all aspects of driving.

I notice that Schmitt  statement says from a  prominent southern CA collection, and actual 38000mile  example,

would say that it probably is a genuine GS example,    because they have a very good reputation ,and would not take  a risk in  

making those statements.

The first item i always look at first to do with restorations is exterior ,and the 35 th photo from the top shows a close up of

a wheel with the  incorrect black shiny inner painting,   then it just goes on and on from there, including the engine  bay,

Well a very nice car -----and which the next owner wonderful motoring.-   from  Buick.

[Pat Curran]

15 hours ago, ericisback said:

As a recent buyer in the market, I can give you my 2cents:

 

-I think the sunroof hurt the price. IMHO, a buyer paying top dollar, USUALLY wants a car as original as possible. 

-I do think the color hurt the price. As with other cars, certain shades bring more money than others. 
 

-I don’t think the famous previous owner helped the price. IMHO, buyers paying top dollar, are more concerned about the car’s condition, and the originality,  than who owned it before. I think a complete chain of title is more important than who actually owned the car. 
 

-IMHO, regarding GS’s, documentation is key!  With the ease of creating clones, the better the documentation, the higher the price. 

of course, I could be completely wrong!

I agree that the sunroof affected the price even though the installation looked top notch.  It would be very hard to reverse but not impossible.  The other minor needs can be remedied much easier.

The black one that sold for $121K was a result of 2 people wanting the same car.  It is a classic auction scenario that plays out like this from time to time.  It has happened before and will continue to happen.

IMHO, the black car had more needs than the green one (sunroof excluded).  But then again, I have always been a sucker for a small emblem car!😁

Edited December 4, 2021 by Pat Curran
Update content (see edit history)

[Pat Curran]

19 hours ago, ericisback said:

You are exactly correct. And, there is no way to actually authenticate an original gran sport, unless you have authenticated documentation.  All the GS upgrades can be taken from other cars.  

Having the “LX” and the engine serial number match the serial number of the car is vital.  You can always do an acid test to see if the block has been re-stamped with some success.

Keep in mind that 454 non-GS Riviera’s were built in 1965 with the Super Wildcat engine (I owned one).  Plus, you could option a regular Riviera  with the ride and handling package and quicker ratio steering.  It makes it all the more interesting to identify the real deal.

[telriv]

Are you referring to Tom Mooney or myself Tom T. (Tom Telesco-telriv) ???

 

Tom T.

[ericisback]

13 minutes ago, Pat Curran said:

Having the “LX” and the engine serial number match the serial number of the car is vital.  You can always do an acid test to see if the block has been re-stamped with some success.

Keep in mind that 454 non-GS Riviera’s were built in 1965 with the Super Wildcat engine (I owned one).  Plus, you could option a regular Riviera  with the ride and handling package and quicker ratio steering.  It makes it all the more interesting to identify the real deal.

100% correct. So, even with an authentic LX block, there is no way to confirm a GS, without original documentation. 

[telriv]

Again, dates codes & numbers do matter not JUST engines.

 

Tom T.

[Wayne R]

Pat--you will  have to explain to me i caught understand your statement ,that 454 non GS Rivieras were built in  1965,

with super wildcat engine,---i have owned 11 Buicks all years--and i know Buick  never built   a 454,in 1965

sorry i can not reply  to you  as i am leaving  now  for a  7 hour  trip away---regards.--Wayne.

[ericisback]

18 minutes ago, Wayne R said:

Pat--you will  have to explain to me i caught understand your statement ,that 454 non GS Rivieras were built in  1965,

with super wildcat engine,---i have owned 11 Buicks all years--and i know Buick  never built   a 454,in 1965

sorry i can not reply  to you  as i am leaving  now  for a  7 hour  trip away---regards.--Wayne.

He means Buick built 454 Super Wildcats that did NOT go into Gran Sports, in 1965, for the Riviera. The rest of the Super Wildcats (duel-quad 425’s) went into the Gran Sports. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by ericisback (see edit history)

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

18 minutes ago, Wayne R said:

Pat--you will  have to explain to me i caught understand your statement ,that 454 non GS Rivieras were built in  1965,

with super wildcat engine,---i have owned 11 Buicks all years--and i know Buick  never built   a 454,in 1965

sorry i can not reply  to you  as i am leaving  now  for a  7 hour  trip away---regards.--Wayne.

Wayne,

I think you misunderstood Pat's comment:

He talks about 454 was the number of non-GS Riviera’s that were built in 1965 with the Super Wildcat engine. Not the 454 engine...

Edited December 4, 2021 by SwedeDownUnderR63 (see edit history)

[Pat Curran]

1 hour ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

Wayne,

I think you misunderstood Pat's comment:

He talks about 454 was the number of non-GS Riviera’s that were built in 1965 with the Super Wildcat engine. Not the 454 engine...

Thank you Swede Down Under for clarifying my post.  

[Pat Curran]

1 hour ago, ericisback said:

He means Buick built 454 Super Wildcats that did NOT go into Gran Sports, in 1965, for the Riviera. The rest of the Super Wildcats (duel-quad 425’s) went into the Gran Sports. 

Thanks Eric!

[RivNut]

If you find that you have a "numbers matching" LX block and VIN, you can find the VIN stamped on the top of the frame.  That would be almost impossible to change.  As Tom T. says, dates and numbers will reveal most clones to the sharp eye.  

[Wayne R]

2 hours ago, Pat Curran said:

Thanks Eric!

Thanks   you both for explaining that,----sorry for being so dumb,  and i agree with   Ed here re   numbers,

not like example like Chevrolet ,---there numbers were lower ,and usually  more prominent in orange.

and corvettes chassis number was not  that easy to sight ,  drivers side just behind rear wheel on top  and next to chassis bolt.

ask me how i know   because i have owned   3 early corvettes as well.

[XframeFX]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:08 AM, Pat Curran said:

Having the “LX” and the engine serial number match the serial number of the car is vital.

 

On 12/4/2021 at 10:29 AM, telriv said:

Again, dates codes & numbers do matter not JUST engines.

Says it all.

 

So, now I see how documentation on Genuine GS's would filter-out even those 454 Rivieras with the LX nailhead if they were cloned.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:13 AM, Pat Curran said:

It is not Sahara Mist.  It looks white to me but not quite the stock Arctic White.

I'll remain content with my lowly '63 which is not the original Arctic White either, I opted for a 1983 Chrysler LeBaron White, much nicer, so I'm told.

[psychostang]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:44 PM, RivNut said:

If you find that you have a "numbers matching" LX block and VIN, you can find the VIN stamped on the top of the frame.  That would be almost impossible to change.  As Tom T. says, dates and numbers will reveal most clones to the sharp eye.  

RivNut, on my 65, where on the frame would the vin be located?

[RivNut]

I’ve seen one on a bare 66 frame and it was on the top of the left side frame forward of the frame kick up for the rear axle.