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1931 Cadillac V12 coupe value?


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23 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

A little too much red going on for my taste and I like the "standard"  Fleetwood Laundaulette better, older restored but a well documented and neat custom bodied car that should probably have gone higher.

 

I don't know John.  RHD is death in the states for a car readily available LHD.  Also,  the restoration looks old,  and the color is bad.   Plus I could put on stilts when I climb in that car and not hit my head.

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3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I don't know John.  RHD is death in the states for a car readily available LHD.  Also,  the restoration looks old,  and the color is bad.   Plus I could put on stilts when I climb in that car and not hit my head.

Tall - "Top Hat" cars - yeah, I hear you.

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8 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Tall - "Top Hat" cars - yeah, I hear you.

 

If you want top dollar,  you need to be able to barely see out of the car.  Panoramic views are frowned on by the market.

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4 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

If you want top dollar,  you need to be able to barely see out of the car.  Panoramic views are frowned on by the market.

Friends had a Top Hat 1929 Lincoln Limousine - I always liked it as it was probably the finest surviving original 1929 Lincoln, but ....

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48 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

World Wide seemed to be hitting home runs all over the field.   This V16 hammered at 152,500 with RHD and Red paint.  Juxtapose that against some of the deals in the Groendyke collection.

 

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/car-details/?id=71&rid=22

 

image.thumb.png.b2c6af62cf66b3ce3f33c50b588a619a.png

 

 

 

giphy.gif

 

And what the hell happened to the headlights?

 

(That one is definitely going in the "Coachwork Gone Wrong" file for which I may write an article--at the risk of pissing off the owners of said awful cars)

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I can't think of a body style I hate more than a landaulette. It's like the mullet of collector cars: formality in front, party in the back, and stupid all over.

Matt

Would you make an exception for the '36-'39 Brunn Touring Cabriolets?

 

The landaulette seem the prefect example of an archaic configuration left over from the horse-drawn carriage/Edwardian Era when the dowager ladies would be chauffeured on the parkway on a sunny Spring afternoon to 'take the air'  on the way to high tea.  None were designed with a top well for the folded top to be concealed neatly in, hence the 'folded mattress' look of the top stack perched on the rear of the body.        

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22 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

 

giphy.gif

 

And what the hell happened to the headlights?

 

(That one is definitely going in the "Coachwork Gone Wrong" file for which I may write an article--at the risk of pissing off the owners of said awful cars)

 

 

 

Please send me a copy of that, especially if you include color choices and gaudy accessories made by recent owner.

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23 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

That one is definitely going in the "Coachwork Gone Wrong" file for which I may write an article

 

I have a similar file. I named it "Art Deco". It is a aspirational work.

Bernie

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14 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Bernie don’t knock “Art Deco” the 38 Studebaker I drive was the Art Deco car of the year 

B93FA6C4-8ACB-49DE-9342-62CDE6D15CC2.jpeg

 

Would you be offended if I offered a basic photography tip...?

 

:)

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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On 1/19/2020 at 12:49 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

I can't think of a body style I hate more than a landaulette. It's like the mullet of collector cars: formality in front, party in the back, and stupid all over.


Funny, I won’t own a convertible sedan, but would jump at a landaulette............

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19 minutes ago, edinmass said:


Funny, I won’t own a convertible sedan, but would jump at a landaulette............

Are you sure about that?  I can think of atleast one that's probably not too bad. 

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I have come close........and would make a special allowance for only one particular brand...........and if I ever pulled the trigger I would never live it down. Anyways, what’s the odds of me finding the one I like at a price I’m willing to pay........probably 10,000 to 1!

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Would you be offended if I offered a basic photography tip...?

 

:)

 

Offer away ! I never reject knowledge or help. Please know I was driving and my daughter took the picture. I just couldn’t find the one I wanted on this phone. If you could give me helpful advice on doing that I would be even happier!  
Dave S

 

i think she really was taking a pic of the tree and I just drove into the frame😃

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49 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Offer away ! I never reject knowledge or help. Please know I was driving and my daughter took the picture. I just couldn’t find the one I wanted on this phone. If you could give me helpful advice on doing that I would be even happier!  
Dave S

 

i think she really was taking a pic of the tree and I just drove into the frame😃

 

I meant no harm, I hope you know I was just being funny. I thought it was an amusing picture that offered a funny situation.

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Matt no worries!  I took it in good humor. To be honest I didn’t have my glasses on when I put the picture up and never noticed the tree. I know my Studebaker is unusual and I just didn’t want Bernie to put down the only award it ever got! LOL. Now I’m  just waiting on the advice about taking pics and then finding them on this phone! 
 

Hyman in St Louis has a 1930 452 V16 coupe for sale for $250K !! 
Have Fun

Dave S 

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On 1/19/2020 at 10:45 AM, alsancle said:

 

I was doing the 35/36/37 debate with a couple of guys last week.    I would have went 36 because of the styling and sloped radiator.  37 seems to be the majority preference because of the juice brakes,  but not sure I love the steel wheels.

 

From what I have seen,  200k buys you the best V12 convertible sedan all day long.   But maybe the issue is I've never seen the best V12 convertible sedan?

 

I think the market in the 35-37 V12 convertible sedans has been a bit stronger than that. Looking at some auction results:

 

$275K for a '37 at a 2016 RM auction. 


$220K for a '37 at a 2013 auction. 

 

$214.5K for a '35 at a 2010 RM auction that looks quite nice.

 

Not an auction price, but here's a '36 for sale asking $269K at a dealer, looks like a 90s resto.

 

$160K for a driver '35 with a 60s era resto but a later repaint last year.

 

Granted, who knows what the values are likely to be in the new softer market.  No idea how they got to $450K.  I vaguely recall that one was 2nd in class at Pebble maybe 4-5 years ago and was being offered for sale since then, not sure if it was that one. 

 

UPDATE: No, different car, although also shown at Pebble. Maybe the Bette Davis connection made a difference?

 

 


 

Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

I think the market in the 35-37 V12 convertible sedans has been a bit stronger than that. Looking at some auction results:

 

See,  usually you can talk out of your fanny on the internet and nobody calls you on it!   I stand corrected.   I know they are a super expensive restoration,  so paying 200-250k for a nice one is way better than trying to pour money in to one.

 

I like the Brunn bodied cars and think they are a deal,  they don't ever seem to bring real money.  Maybe because there are so few really nice ones.

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3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

See,  usually you can talk out of your fanny on the internet and nobody calls you on it!   I stand corrected.   I know they are a super expensive restoration,  so paying 200-250k for a nice one is way better than trying to pour money in to one.

 

I like the Brunn bodied cars and think they are a deal,  they don't ever seem to bring real money.  Maybe because there are so few really nice ones.

 

I like the Brunn bodied cars, too.   This is totally outside my knowledge, but I've assumed the Brunn cars' relatively low market values reflect what I take to be their strange status as sort of closed, sort of open cars, given that they're not full convertibles.   In contrast, I think most years of Packard convertible sedans have tops that go down relatively flush to the body and don't look awkward with the top down.  I don't know if that explains it.

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14 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

I like the Brunn bodied cars, too.   This is totally outside my knowledge, but I've assumed the Brunn cars' relatively low market values reflect what I take to be their strange status as sort of closed, sort of open cars, given that they're not full convertibles.   In contrast, I think most years of Packard convertible sedans have tops that go down relatively flush to the body and don't look awkward with the top down.  I don't know if that explains it.

 

They are catalog custom bodies and attractive.  Apples to Apples on condition they should bring more than a factory convertible sedan every day of the week.   I think the issue is condition.  Very few nice ones ever hit the market and restoration costs are insane.  But maybe not everyone shares our opinion of their looks?

 

image.thumb.png.3375859c9963484824c350ae2eeb0a69.png

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The Brunn Touring Cabriolet has far nicer proportions than the factory convertible sedan, should bring more just on that basis.   An unrestored Packard example, to be differentiated from those on the Lincoln K chassis, appeared at Hershey eight-ten years ago in the Chocolate Field.  It was possible to examine how Brunn built them.  The top other than the windshield casting was all wood covered with canvas fabric.  Looking into the cowl, door shells and trunk area confirmed what I suspected:  the front cowl and door structures are the same as the convertible sedan, only the rear section of the body was framed and shaped metal by Brunn.   It should have been a more cost-affective method to present custom styling while utilizing existing components readily available.  

 

Addendum: Looking at the above, Brunn did a poor job of engineering a compact folding top stack, which might be impossible with a functional, exposed landau irons.   To Brunn's credit, the top-to-rear deck intersection is nearer the rear axle plane which is key to better proportions for closed cars.  Packard to its credit, did a fine job of concealing the massive convertible sedan top mechanism in a well.  The proportional drawback is the broad C-pillar sail panel with the roof-to-rear deck intersection well beyond the rear axle plane.   Had they created the convertible sedan with rear body proportions like the Touring Cabriolet, it would have been a knockout!   

Edited by 58L-Y8
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2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

They are catalog custom bodies and attractive.  Apples to Apples on condition they should bring more than a factory convertible sedan every day of the week.  

 

 

 

I can only speak for my own preferences, which are probably quirky, but which I would rather have depends on whether I would want to show or drive it.  To show, I'll take the Brunn.  Custom, etc. To drive, I'd take the convertible sedan.  Driving with the top down is a good part of the fun.   No idea if others share that view, though, or how many actually drive these cars often enough to make that distinction.

 

Top down, sunny day . . . 

 

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Edited by 1935Packard (see edit history)
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8 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

I can only speak for my own preferences, which are probably quirky, but which I would rather have depends on whether I would want to show or drive it.  To show, I'll take the Brunn.  Custom, etc. To drive, I'd take the convertible sedan.  Driving with the top down is a good part of the fun.   No idea if others share that view, though, or how many actually drive these cars often enough to make that distinction.

 

Top down, sunny day . . . 

 

1203578231_ScreenShot2020-01-21at12_04_34PM.thumb.png.c44ba4240d0db9c5bbe06fec8b867861.png

 

I'm with you. Packard did some remarkable packaging with the convertible sedans to get that giant top to disappear so completely behind the seats. It makes for a better finished product and these cars look handsome top up or top down. I'm at a bit of a loss to explain their booming popularity compared to other options, but I suspect it's a bit of "flavor of the month" and a bit of the expense of making one right pushing values up.

 

There are many things I like about the Brunn bodies, including the windows above the windshield and the tangible build quality, but I always think about how I'd use a car and touring is what I prefer to do. The Brunn touring cabriolet, despite the nomenclature, seems ill-suited to my needs--why should the guy in the back get the convertible? It's my car, I'm driving, I want to be the guy enjoying the sun and air. That's why I love town cars--convertible in front, penalty box for the kids in back, and why even my limousine is a nice compromise with its divider window. It's a personal thing, of course, but from a pure usability standpoint, I would prefer to own a true open car with a "factory" body rather than a custom landaulette of any kind. In fact, I'd take any factory body style before a landaulette, but again, purely a matter of personal taste. I understand it, it's just not for me.

 

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2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I'm with you. Packard did some remarkable packaging with the convertible sedans to get that giant top to disappear so completely behind the seats. It makes for a better finished product and these cars look handsome top up or top down. I'm at a bit of a loss to explain their booming popularity compared to other options, but I suspect it's a bit of "flavor of the month" and a bit of the expense of making one right pushing values up.

 

 

I just want to flag for the cognoscenti that Matt seems to be saying that Packard convertible sedans are enjoying "booming popularity" and are particularly sought after right now.  I think the world may have finally realized that Packard convertible sedans offer a remarkable package.  "Handsome top up or down," as Matt says;  "a top that disappears so completely" with the top down; good protection against the elements with the top up; and seating for the whole family.  It's a hot ticket right now!

 

P.S.  Whether I have recently acquired such a car is left as an exercise for the reader.

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On 1/20/2020 at 11:09 PM, SC38DLS said:

 

Hyman in St Louis has a 1930 452 V16 coupe for sale for $250K !! 
Have Fun

Dave S 

It's a lovely car and really someone should jump on it !

 

I suspect the concern is that if you go out on the Sixteen Survivors website there is some noted confusion regarding a matching Cabriolet to the Coupe, but a build sheet is probably available via GM archives.    https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V6srv30a-sambeat.htm 

 

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16 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

 

I just want to flag for the cognoscenti that Matt seems to be saying that Packard convertible sedans are enjoying "booming popularity" and are particularly sought after right now.  I think the world may have finally realized that Packard convertible sedans offer a remarkable package.  "Handsome top up or down," as Matt says;  "a top that disappears so completely" with the top down; good protection against the elements with the top up; and seating for the whole family.  It's a hot ticket right now!

 

P.S.  Whether I have recently acquired such a car is left as an exercise for the reader.

Fabulous tour cars - it is really dreamy to have both guests and luggage in your car at the same time or have friends in car and go out to dinner with top up or top down  - and look great with both top up or down. 

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On 1/21/2020 at 4:16 AM, 1935Packard said:

 Maybe the Bette Davis connection made a difference?

 

 


 

No, just an exceptional example and had just enough mileage on it that it proved driveable matched to still being very showable - RE 1937 Packard Twelve convertible Sedan. 

 

That being said though, it curiously set a record price by far and while rare there are several comparable examples that I am sure available for less money. 

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On 1/21/2020 at 6:19 PM, 1935Packard said:

 

 

P.S.  Whether I have recently acquired such a car is left as an exercise for the reader.


Ok, so I let the cat out of the bag.................great ride............

 

to quote a very famous improvised movie line.......”you’re gonna need a bigger garage!”

 

79A0D4BA-98B4-4CEE-B8CA-0A20A52BAA54.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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