CBGSTYLES

1931 Cadillac V12 coupe value?

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3 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

I always wonder when someone makes the statement "Only __(fill in the blank with a number) left in the world."

 

When I see that I know I'm dealing with someone that has limited experience in the hobby.   It is basically a worthless statement.  The more experienced guys will say "1 of 5 know to the XXX Club"  or something along those lines.

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11 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Who ever buys this car tell him I have a second gear bushing and there is only two others left in the world. Plus they are not going to be reproduced again. I guarantee it pops out of second gear.

                  Joe

 

 

I have three new bushings in the Cadillac drawer next to my work bench. You can never have enough spares. And, they are going up in value all the time now that most of the reproduction parts runs are over.

 

PS - and they are not for sale........I just used one last month.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, AzBob said:

edinmass, would Lincoln be in this category?

 

 

 

Yes. But all the cars have certain issues and difficulties......it’s just Cadillac’s have many more of them.  

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16 hours ago, mercer09 said:

If the wood is good- car is worth 35-40k to someone.

 

you will never buy a car like this for 15k unless you are out to cheat a widow..............

 

Maybe she already has been.

 

Widows have three things to be wary of; 1. being cheated by a buyer, 2. being coached by someone helping to keep her from being cheated, 3. Believing what her husband told her his car was worth.

 

Looking at the pictures, if the old man had a 50 grand car moldering in the garage for decades he should have cashed it in and paved the driveway ( if that's where the car was. If not.....)

Bernie

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17 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

If it runs I agree with this.

I agree too - especially if wood is good.  At very minimum 25K - otherwise you are taking advantage. 


As to downside faults:  They are wood body structure construction and if not good then it is a real serious pain in the .... matched to a wallet opening experience.   Also, there was probably only one or two other General Motors cars that use the same quantity of die cast/pot metal - if you touch it after plating it will break, plenty will just self destruct on its own, and ...  

Also, it appears to be missing its spears off the running board splash aprons and the gasoline tank cover.  Also the luggage trunk on the rack is incorrect (and really would look better with none or a low profile trunk - they are a pretty penny). 

 

In 1976 money when we did out 1931 - it was about 15k to replace all the die cast(including the zink plated hubcaps)  - in the money converter that is $ 67,805.27 in 2019 money.

 

Rare car and worth good money - but unless in love with it and your dream car then best to just clean it all up, improve it the best you can, and move it along.  I doubt there is any profit in restoring it - even if it were free. And, if you do not make it a truly 100 point car the seemingly minor imperfections will be GLARING to the bulk of collectors interested - falls under the "more harm than good" category. 

 

Sidenote:  If you are going to negotiate off the 50K and still play in the upper amounts, I would certainly be hunting under front seat, on rear floor, garage, or ...  for the hand crank and popping the crank hole cover off and seeing engine turns over.  And, if you know them really well, I would strike a deal that I get to spend some time and get car running in their garage prior to check writing. Otherwise, non-runners come at substantial discounts, unless they are open/convertible cars. 

 

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 And, they are going up in value all the time now that most of the reproduction parts runs are over.

A point I commonly preach via these type of cars being mostly restored in 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's and what I would have been able to have sent to me in a telephone call during that period of time is actually quite a problem today.   Restoring cars is fun, but when you get into die cast wonders and .. it is incredibly expensive matched to exhausting to be the one who has to re-create the wheel. 

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19 hours ago, alsancle said:

The caddy V12 really seems to suffer in the market because of the 16 and that it basically has the performance of the V8.   I think if you price a comparable v8 coupe and had a small premium you are probably in the ball park.

I would tell you a V-12 is really the better car over a V-16 - perhaps it is the less weight of engine, chassis, bodies, and ...

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7 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

I would tell you a V-12 is really the better car over a V-16 - perhaps it is the less weight of engine, chassis, bodies, and ...

 

I will take the 16 first, the 8 second, and the 12 last.

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1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

I will take the 16 first, the 8 second, and the 12 last.

I always leaned to the V-12 over the V-8, as we had so many problems with the carb in the V'ee /valley and the V-12 solves at least that problem.   A V-16 really does stand alone though - spectacular cars. 

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John , as you know, the carb on the V-8 looks simple,  but is a precision instrument, as is the distributor , both set well they will hardly give any trouble. 😉

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3 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

A point I commonly preach via these type of cars being mostly restored in 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's and what I would have been able to have sent to me in a telephone call during that period of time is actually quite a problem today.   Restoring cars is fun, but when you get into die cast wonders and .. it is incredibly expensive matched to exhausting to be the one who has to re-create the wheel. 

 

You would think that the prewar Rolls would have a bigger following considering you can order almost any mechanical part off the internet in 3 minutes.

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Gentleman.....as to the “true value” of the original post car...........I’m not arguing it needs a 100 point restoration.....I have and enjoy 80 point cars......they smoke, they leak, the body squeaks......ect. I don’t want or need perfection in a car, I just want it to run and drive perfectly......as new. 

 

Fact is, I am involved in many transactions of cars.......only pre war large stuff......I have a a very fine tuned understanding of what is bringing money, and what is not. The issue is NOT THE VALUE of the 1931 V-12 Coupe.........not at all. The issue is what 50k can buy you today for a turn key car. Recently I was looking at a car that was in a restoration shop and the “all in” number as somewhere around 275k. I offered the shop to purchase the car from the family’s estate. My offer was 30k, and I said to them, it was too high, but the value of the work the car had done made it worth the extra money to me.......the offer was refused, and the car placed in a no reserve auction.....a big venue auction, where the car had its best chance to do well. The sale price including commission was 24k. Thus my offer with no fees to them was 33 percent higher than the car realized at the sale. It’s not the value of your car today, it’s what other cars are available that are in better condition, more desirable, sorted, and turn key.............that’s what is dictating the market today....”the other car”. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Ed, that is a stunning snapshot of todays market.

 

Greg in Canada

 

Greg, twenty years ago, it was hard to find a GOOD early thirties Caddy for sale......any platform, and body style......8,12, or 16. If you would like one today.....let me know what you want........and the color and body style. I’ll get it delivered to you in less than two weeks. 

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7 hours ago, alsancle said:

guys will say "1 of 5 know to the XXX Club"  or something along those lines.

That makes a lot more sense than the line in my original quote.

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Not only that, but I'm pretty sure Joe knows what he is doing. The question I have is how hard could it be to make a bushing ?   -    Carl 

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7 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

When I see that I know I'm dealing with someone that has limited experience in the hobby.   It is basically a worthless statement.  The more experienced guys will say "1 of 5 know to the XXX Club"  or something along those lines.

 

Yup.  A few years ago I tried to find pictures of all the still-existing '35 Packard 12 coupe-roadsters to see how they looked in different colors.  Several big auctions reported that only five of the cars still exist, out of about 50 made.  Just googling around, I found pictures on the web of at least 10 of them.

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3 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Yup.  A few years ago I tried to find pictures of all the still-existing '35 Packard 12 coupe-roadsters to see how they looked in different colors.  Several big auctions reported that only five of the cars still exist, out of about 50 made.  Just googling around, I found pictures on the web of at least 10 of them.

 

Orin, there is fault in your hypothesis.............the other half are repowered eights. The car is only a 12 with rock solid provenance, and the last two I looked at in the past five years we’re conversions. And they were at the big venue sales. 

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12 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

I always wonder when someone makes the statement "Only __(fill in the blank with a number) left in the world." I believe the person making the statement has been able to account for EVERY part or car he/she is making that statement about. In my world, that's almost an impossibility.

As to the car in question, if it is roadworthy after performing the usual services needed to make it so, why would anyone want to restore it? I would think it would attract way more attention left as is.

Both of these statements are IMHO.

Mister Kid does not have anymore and when I seen him last he has no intention of having anymore made as the cost has gone way up because of the tolerance.  Joseph  has 2 on consignment as of a couple of months ago.

Edited by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

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22 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

"First, I will admit that I am always the first to say that it's cheaper to buy a finished car than a project. I will also say that I am the guy who rains on everyone's parades when they start a project and don't seem to realize they'll be over their heads before the first drop of paint is sprayed.

 

Nevertheless, I like this car a lot. It's rare, it's handsome, and it's an A-list car. I have long maintained that the Cadillac V12 is much more than 3/4 of a V16 for 1/4 the price. This is a worthy car.

 

That said, you WILL NOT make money restoring it. You'll "lose" a fortune if dollars and cents are all that matter to you. You have to do it because you want this car. It can be restored, it won't be easy, but when you're done you will have a car that stands near the top of the food chain in the Full Classic world. Anything with 12 cylinders deserves respect and the lovely OHV Cadillac V12 is an excellent car. They are challenging to restore for many reasons--parts, knowledge, and finishing, but they're also very high-quality and durable, and that car does not look like it has been seriously neglected or abused. Wood and the engine are, as the others have suggested, the biggies in terms of dollar investment required. But even if they're good, you will spend a HUGE pile of money no matter what."

 

I like what Matt said. There's a "right" person to buy this out there.

Somewhere there's a person who's going to buy a class A motorhome for a 1/4 million. Also, someone who could buy this V-12 and get it to near-new condition for the same amount. Ten years go by....then the 1st guy has a $40K bus, though he saved some motel money. The 2nd guy may have had some fun on the car show circuit or some tours. Though never getting to sleep in his purchase, he preserved some history. Person #1 and person #2 are just different, neither better or worse than the other. The ones taking the "V-12 Route" next year are a lot rarer than the ones doing the "Motorhome Route", I suspect.   

 

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Mister Kid does not have anymore and when I seen him last he has no intention of having anymore made as the cost has gone way up because of the tolerance.  Joseph  has 2 on consignment as of a couple of months ago.

Your statement doesn't tell anyone how you accounted for ALL of the ones ever made, which is my point. You don't know for 100% if there are any others in someone else's possession. Because of that, you can't make a statement that there are only X number of whatever left in the world.

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2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

..............................the cost has gone way up because of the tolerance.  

 

Hi Joe. Could you or Ed please post a picture of this close tolerance bushing  ?  If very close tolerance is needed, you must find a shop that operates inside and outside grinders which can take your job. I have recommended in the past that such jobs can be done by companies which rebuild hydraulic cylinders. A good machinist can accurately cut to a significant fraction of a "tenth", (of a thousandth). If that will cut it for the transmission bushings. go ahead and whittle 'em out if the process is efficient. However, not everyone is familiar with the routine capabilities of grinders. For example In order for seals to hold against extremely high hydraulic pressure, the surfaces must be very smooth and accurate. After the surface is finely and precisely ground, it is then hard chrome plated. The grinders last job is to then take out the miniscule micro ripple inherent to the plating process. Man, you can't do THAT with cutting tools. Yeah, let's see what these bushings look like....................      Thanks,    -   CC 

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1 hour ago, George Smolinski said:

Your statement doesn't tell anyone how you accounted for ALL of the ones ever made, which is my point. You don't know for 100% if there are any others in someone else's possession. Because of that, you can't make a statement that there are only X number of whatever left in the world.

Now for your homework for over the holidays is see how many you can find for sale not how many there are. Only  2 very small lots were ever made with the problem being with the inside spline.      

Edited by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

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Joe.....I’m not familiar with who made them or when, but they are sure a complicated part. Over the years I have fixed over a dozen of the Cadillac transmissions. They have several common problems that cause them to jump out of gear, and the second gear bushing is the hard issue that is the repair of last resort. Holding one in my hand, I knew right away they were a good value, and a royal pain in the axx to make, that’s why I bought a few. Thought they were a good investment, and my money was not only safe, but the part would appreciate over time. I think I guessed right. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

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