Starter/starting issue

[Summershandy]

Sometimes when starting the car the starter would just click. This didn't happen too often and never stranded me. I figured I'd let a shop take a look at the starter this winter hoping it was dirty or worn out. They said it looks great inside and tested it numerous times. All connections (at least under the hood) are clean and tight. Wiring looks in good but I could double check. Could the ignition switch be giving some grief instead? Nothing like leaving a car show with a "click click click"........any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[JACK M]

Solenoid?

You wouldn't get the click if its the switch.

First check for corrosion at the battery cables. Especially if it has those cheesy clamps with the two screws holding the cable to the lug at the battery end.

This is just general stuff, I am not Pontiac specific.

[Summershandy]

Thanks for the switch thought Jack. I was just asking generally anyway. The shop commented on how new the solenoid is. Sometimes someone else had the same issue and found the cause, thus throwing me an option. All my connections are immaculate. I'll try to inspect the wiring closer and make sure there aren't any strands broken. 

Cheers Mark 

[PFitz]

Go to You Tube and look up how to do a "voltage drop" test using a volt/ohm meter. It's a simple test method that will show you exactly where the problem is.

 

Paul

Edited February 7, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Summershandy]

Will do thanks!

[PONTIAC1953]

let me make three suggestions, 1) check the wire connections on the backside of the ignition switch for being clean and tight. 2) make sure the neutral safety switch is adjusted properly when you're placing the gear selector firmly in neutral. 3) check the neutral safety switch connections for being clean and tight.

 

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac technical advisor

technical advisor coordinator

pontiac oakland club international

[Summershandy]

Thanks Charles - 1) definitely will be checking the ignition switch. 2) Funny you brought up the neutral safety, I had removed it last winter to clean it up and discovered the engine wouldn't turn over because it was out of adjustment so I learned about that one. 3) I had cleaned those said connections.  

Good hearing from you!

Mark

[Gary_Ash]

Sometimes the armature in the starter needs to be turned to have good connections to the brushes.

[Bloo]

Check the copper disc and the copper bolts in the back of the solenoid. "New" or not, I would check it. Is the solenoid plunger threaded and adjustable? If so, double check that too.

 

If you can catch it in the act (hold the key in "start" position while it is screwing up and not cranking), PFitz's suggestion of a voltage drop test will lead you right to the cause.

[John_Mereness]

Sidenote: Try to avoid crimp on wire terminals in your starting circuit - soldered terminals are best.

[Summershandy]

I checked the copper flat bar between the starter and solenoid and cleaned it up. I checked and tightened the ignition switch wires and they looked good. Double checked the neutral switch connections and they still look good from last summer. I'll re-adjust it when I fire it up this spring. I did question a connector that goes to the starter. Looks like some heat build up. The protective sleeve just crumbled off. I opened up the connector and did find it was soldered but in my opinion it sure didn't seem like a whole lot of contact. I'll pick up a new connector and hook that up. These pictures aren't the greatest. 

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Summershandy said:

 

 

High Corrosion = high resistance = large voltage drop = low current flow

 

I agree with John Mereness.  Soldered terminals are best.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Summershandy]

On 2/7/2019 at 6:35 PM, pontiac1953 said:

make sure the neutral safety switch is adjusted properly when you're placing the gear selector firmly in neutral.

 

So you're saying the switch can be improperly adjusted? Meaning it may only work hit and miss? I assumed once you find the position that the engine will turn over you're there. Guess I have to find that "sweet spot?" Unfortunately I'm still getting the odd click. I work alone and therefore impossible to any voltage drop tests. 

[PFitz]

Usually, the offer of a free meal, or 6 pack, will bring lots of offers of help when an extra hand is needed just to turn a switch or press a pedal.

No one needs to work alone as long as there's still food and booze in the world !  

 

Paul 

Edited June 8, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[misterc9]

This is not common but sometimes it happens. The ignition switch can be worn so that the key turns slightly past the contact for the starter. You get the click as it momentarily makes contact then goes past. It might happen very seldom. It could be heat related. When it happens try playing with the key to find the sweet spot.

[PONTIAC1953]

16 hours ago, Summershandy said:

 

So you're saying the switch can be improperly adjusted? Meaning it may only work hit and miss? I assumed once you find the position that the engine will turn over you're there. Guess I have to find that "sweet spot?" Unfortunately I'm still getting the odd click. I work alone and therefore impossible to any voltage drop tests. 

yes, the mounting bracket that is fasten to the steering column jacket has a slot, so it is possible to be misadjusted.

[Summershandy]

I wonder if the neutral safety switch can be dismantled and inspected? I had the inkling to open it up when I had it off but scared something might go "BOING" then I'd be stuck looking for another. 

 

 

 

 

[Summershandy]

I need someone to re-read a step in the manual page 12-24.

Step 2. Place manual control lever in DR Left position. 

Step 4. Adjust neutralizer switch bracket to a position where starter will not operate when ignition switch is actuated. 

 

I can adjust the switch from one end to the other and the starter will not turn over regardless. 

I can however, make it work or not work in the neutral position. I moved it about a 1/4" so we'll see if the clicks have gotten better or not. 

 

[The 55er]

5 hours ago, Summershandy said:

I wonder if the neutral safety switch can be dismantled and inspected? I had the inkling to open it up when I had it off but scared something might go "BOING" then I'd be stuck looking for another. 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't attempt to take that neutral safety switch apart unless I had a replacement on hand. Crimped together switches like that weren't made to be serviced, only replaced. I've never taken a switch exactly like that apart but a disc or something inside there turns, there may not be a BOING but a bunch of little springs and copper pieces are gonna be coming apart. They'll fall out and then if you don't get them back together in the exact right spot it won't work. A bigger concern would be that one of those outer case mounting ears that hold the bakelite top on break off, they're not made to be repeatedly bent back and forth. If that happens, you're done. Even if you reassemble it correctly the bakelite might be loose or something inside could be worn or out of whack. That neutral switch is P/N 1998039 and it only fits Hydramatic Pontiacs from 1953-1956. If it were me I'd make absolutely certain the starter motor, solenoid and wiring connections are good. Fooling with the internals of that switch would be an absolute last resort. 

[JACK M]

When I get suspect of a switch like this I drown it in WD40.

Most of these are not tight to liquid so a couple of good douches in key areas may let the WD in.

Then work it a lot. If it seems to have left over WD in it let it lay in several positions until it quits leaking.

Saved may switches like this.

 

55er is right, a bunch of tiny springs and loose copper contacts in there and are a biotch to put back together. Especially if it does the BOING or you are holding it wrong when it finally opens.

[Summershandy]

I will NOT be taking the switch apart! Nice idea with the WD....thanks guys.

 

[gregchrysler]

I had the same problem     Brought the starter back 5 times  and finally he discovered that the alignment of the bolts on the starter (positive and negative)  2 bolts on the bottom of the starter were not aligned internally in the starter--   instead of being 180 degrees transverse internally they were not making contact fully enough to start the gear push to the flywheel     So align bolts internally and externally       I tried everything  also

[Summershandy]

27 minutes ago, gregchrysler said:

So align bolts internally and externally    

 

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Summershandy]

I adjusted the switch a good 1/2 inch down and went for a cruise today. Not nearly as many click restarts as the first time. I did have one however. I'll keep trying and post any results as I can find them. I'm feeling this helped. 

[Bloo]

I probably already asked this, but are you COMPLETELY SURE the copper bolts in the starter solenoid don't have their heads burned off?

 

That is by far the most common cause of "Click Click Click". The bolts lose enough of their heads that the copper disc no longer contacts them when the solenoid pulls in.

[Summershandy]

12 hours ago, Bloo said:

I probably already asked this

 

No you haven't Bloo. I will check into that, thanks!

[Summershandy]

Took the solenoid apart and I've seen cleaner contacts. Contact area is the edge of the bolt head and edge of the disc. 4The bolt head can be turned 180 degrees to make a clean surface again. I wish I could flip the disc to the clean side but it seems the pin holding it on is squashed a bit to hold it in place. I don't want to mess around with that or I'll probably be looking for a new rebuild or something. I lightly sanded the corroded edge smooth. What's interesting to me is the disc looks aluminum and the contact area is copper. Is that a coating of some sort?

 

 

[Summershandy]

I almost forgot about the other bolt head. I turned that one 180 also. I also decided to open up the starter seeing I had it out. It really was clean. No dust or anything. About the only  thing I could clean was where the brushes contact and the end shaft. The old grease felt gummy so put a little new grease on it also. 

I really hope this is the fix I've been looking for! 

 

 

[Bloo]

The disc might be tin plated. When they don't work it is generally not because the contacts are dirty, but because the head has eroded away, and the disc cannot quite reach anymore. Look for the metal to be eroded away quite a bit. Click.... click.... and then sometimes it works.

 

If your solenoid plunger is threaded and adjustable (Is it?), make sure it is adjusted correctly. I don't know what the setting is, but if it is adjustable the shop manual should have it. (For example, mid 30s Buick is 1/8" between the end of the drive pinion and the nose casting with the solenoid pulled in.) I suspect if it were out of whack far enough it could prevent the disc and bolts from doing their job.

 

I wasn't expecting to see those oval headed bolts. That must have been new in 1954. I had a 1953 Chevrolet once with a very similar looking starter, and I could have sworn it had the older type thick-headed copper bolts.

[Summershandy]

Dang, wish I would have waited for your reply LOL. The solenoid mounting plate is slotted allowing it to be moved forward to backward but the funny thing is, each bolt holding it down are at the outside of those slots. It can only be mounted in one position. So I can't see any way it can move or be adjusted. Now I'm just curious what the pinion measurement is. Maybe it's not the correct solenoid for that starter. It does look awful new. 

 

 

 

 

[Bloo]

On some of the older ones, there are threads on the linkage into the plunger. I think you have to have the plunger out, or the linkage off or something. In any event that must not apply to yours, or they would have mentioned it.

 

I haven't actually seen that adjustment causing "click click click" but I think it could if it was blocking motion of the solenoid, either by touching the tip of the starter housing, or the ring gear.

 

Normally, the solenoid pulls the gear into position, and when it bottoms out, it kicks a pin that kicks the copper disc. If you look closely you will see that at the back, where the disc is mounted, there is a little spring under a clip. When the disc hits the bolts, it compresses the little spring. That way there is a little extra travel so that as the bolts wear off, the copper disc will continue to make contact when the solenoid pulls in. Eventually that extra travel is used up, and the disc can no longer reach.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[54vicky]

I think bloo is giving you good ideas I have not seen a coated ring before may be the problem usually  copper that could be problem.as to safety switch if you bypass it you can feel assured it is not the problem.to bypass simply undo one side and place it on other side with it now having both wires on one terminal either side will do.remember to change back if it eliminates the clicking.I doubt it is problem but easy to test this way..just make sure when starting you have in neutral or park with parking brake on

[cheezestaak2000]

try this: next time problem occurs, hook up a remote starter button( the tool used to turn engine over to find timing mark etc.) if the starter works with that, you have just eliminated ign and neutral safety switchs

[Summershandy]

46 minutes ago, 54vicky said:

as to safety switch if you bypass it

 

I've heard of guys bypassing it permanently when they have issues.  

[Summershandy]

32 minutes ago, cheezestaak2000 said:

next time problem occurs, hook up a remote starter button

 

...because I always drive around with one LOL.....the starter usually kicks in next try but thanks for that idea!

[Summershandy]

50 minutes ago, 54vicky said:

I have not seen a coated ring before may be the problem usually  copper that could be problem.

 

When I sanded the corrosion down I got a clean copper surface. Maybe that'll help. 

[certjeff1]

All of the new movable contacts are tin coated. I believe Delco-Remy started doing this in 24V solenoid applications and the aftermarket followed suit and used it in all applications.. The stationary contacts were downsized with the 10MT starter. Some movable contact disc;s can be flipped. Check both sides of the disc. If you have a C clip that can be slid out. Use a flat blade screwdriver to take the tension off the spring. Looking at your pictures that looks like normal years of use wear. If any of the contacts have turned purple or gold that would indicate high heat which would mean a voltage drop problem. Since all your contacts are still nice and copper and your movable is still tin plated with very small arc marks that is why I say normal wear. 

 

Jeff

[Summershandy]

Thanks Jeff. I was unable to flip the disc. The pin that holds it in place has been hit at it's end with enough force to swell it enough to lock the pin in place. I didn't want to monkey with it. I went out yesterday and started the car 4 times. Sounded like a good strong crank without any clicks.....yet. I'll post again after a bunch more cruises. If the click goes away, we know what the major cause was. 

[Summershandy]

I've started the engine over a dozen times in the past 2 days and haven't had a click issue yet. Much better than previous times. Think we're on the right track!

[Frank DuVal]

Yes, turning those bolt heads 180 degrees usually fixes the click click click problem on GM solenoids. 6 volt or 12 volt, same construction. 

 

I use to buy the bolts (terminals) from a local AC Delco distributor (Auto Electric, now many owners later part of UCI). They used to rebuild starters and generators, but stopped sometime in the 60s. Still had parts on the shelf. Nice to have a direct from AC Delco jobber close by.😉