Can anyone ID this motor?

[Guest Rolf1961]

Hello, i am from Germany. Many years ago a friend of me purchased a Rome Turney radiator at a flea market somewhere in Europe. He can not remember where because it is at least 25 years ago. What we have is the serial number, pics (all attached) and also pics of the 8 cylinder engine that came with. The engine is nowhere marked and we do not know the manufacturer and we do not know if both (engine and radiator) were used original as a unit. So, we do like to know the manufacturer of the engine. Does anyone know if it is possible to find out to whom Rome Turney delivered the radiator based on the serial no.? It is 82859. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

That is a very unusual engine. I have never seen anything like it. My suspicion is its strictly a racing unit. I would identify it before doing anything with it.  It"s possible it could be very valuable.  I would post it in the HCCA area on this site as it is rather early. Looks about 1920 to me. Also, the HAMB sight will have lots of racing guys who may possibly know what it is. Its very unusual to find an engine in that league, and its probably too good for a home built speed car or track racer. keep us updated when you get more info. Good luck. Ed

Edited November 21, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I agree with Ed's comments.  Very cool.

[1937hd45]

Wow! That is a very nice looking engine, looks like a road engine not a full race car engine based on the started and single carburetor. Hope you can ID the builder. Pop Green was one of many builders of one off engines. I'd ask the people in Lincoln Nebraska at the Speedway museum for help, they have the best collection of racing engines. Bob 

Edited November 21, 2017 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I agree with comments, fascinating engine.  I've never seen a staggered cylinder eight before.  The angled valves mean that the inline overhead (right angle gear driven) cam must have something else attached to it?  I can't tell what shiny objects are next to cam lobes, is that part of the mechanism for second row of valve stems?

 

Now, to be perfectly accurate, this is not a "straight eight", but is rather a V-8 engine, with a VERY small degree between banks...

[1937hd45]

I think you are looking at cam followers, valves are angled but cylinders are in line. Bob 

Edited November 22, 2017 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Mike36]

If the cylinders are in line, why are the cylinder witness marks on the head staggered? Looks like Trimacar is right to me.

[dictator27]

Agree with Trimacar.  This is a very narrow angle (12+- degree?) V8.  The cylinder witness marks on the cylinder head indicate that.  Also the valves of adjoining cylinders overlap slightly.  It is a small bore engine.  The carburetor is unusual and has a patent date of 1926 on it and the distributor was used on the Lycoming engine in the 1926 Auburn 8-88 (and probably other cars using Lycoming engines).  

[Guest Rolf1961]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

I agree with comments, fascinating engine.  I've never seen a staggered cylinder eight before.  The angled valves mean that the inline overhead (right angle gear driven) cam must have something else attached to it?  I can't tell what shiny objects are next to cam lobes, is that part of the mechanism for second row of valve stems?

 

Now, to be perfectly accurate, this is not a "straight eight", but is rather a V-8 engine, with a VERY small degree between banks...

thx, i will check this again

 

[dictator27]

Italian automaker Lancia produced narrow angle V (10, 11, 13 and 20 degrees) engines starting about 1920.

 

 

[Restorer32]

Very interesting engine. Fascinating design.

[trimacar]

Interesting write up on Lancia, they seemed to favor 4 cylinders engines and the narrow angle V's as mentioned, but they did build an eight cylinder with narrow V angle...

 

I'm not 100% convinced the engine in question is a Lancia, but it's similar in design...could you show a picture of the cylinders with head off, and do you have a bore measurement?

 

 

http://www.sportscars.tv/Newfiles/histlancia.html 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by trimacar (see edit history)

[dictator27]

Not suggesting that it is a Lancia engine, but it seems reasonable to think that whoever built it possibly took a page out of Lancia's book.

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, dictator27 said:

Not suggesting that it is a Lancia engine, but it seems reasonable to think that whoever built it possibly took a page out of Lancia's book.

 

I concur!  I think that means I agree.....

[SC38dls]

That is beautiful and has to be worth some good $$$$$

[Dave Henderson]

6 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I think you are looking at cam followers, valves are angled but cylinders are in line. Bob 

On the picture of the valve side of the head standing up the outlines of the cylinders can be seen.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)

[capngrog]

That is a fascinating engine, and, while it may, or may not be monetarily valuable, its uniqueness makes it worthy of prominent display in a museum.  As others have noted, the design may be of European origin; however, the use of American accessories (radiator, carburetor, generator, distributor) make me believe that the engine may have been made somewhere in America. 

 

The Rome-Turney Radiator Company was pretty much out of the automotive radiator business by the mid 1930s, but continued in business to make industrial heat exchangers.  The company supplied radiators to several large auto manufacturers (Pierce-Arrow, Ford etc.) so they were apparently not rare.  This would make it difficult to track down the identification of the engine builder by researching the Rome-Turney Radiator company.  The radiator shell of the subject radiator is reminiscent of early custom speedsters.

 

The accessory drive section of the engine looks very impressive as is the chain driving (in order, front-to-back) the external oil pump, water pump and generator.  It appears that the distributor is gear-driven from the accessory drive section.

 

Just my opinion (base on limited knowledge).

 

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving,

Grog

[edinmass]

I’m thinking it’s possibly a boat engine, but that’s just a hunch. Interestingly if it is a boat engine, although unusual and possibly unique, the value will be much lower than an automobile. If the motor is and can be verified as automotive, the engine most certainly has very decent value. I’m thinking that upstate NY with the finger lakes and Great Lakes along with the heavy manufacturing going on in the area, and it probably being post WW1 means boat, but who knows........the answer will be fascinating no matter what the final answer is. If it were mine, I would figure out what it is, than do a correct build around it.  

[edinmass]

Can we have the bore and stroke please? Any casting marks or numbers anywhere on the engine? Photos of the crank, rods, and pistons will help. Also oil pump. Thanks, Ed

[trimacar]

Yes, Ed, I'd thought marine engine too when I first looked at it.  As you know, I dearly love those marine engine collectors!

 

I don't think it's racing, as racing engines usually had dual ignition....it just wouldn't do if you magneto crapped out mid race, so a back up system was nice to have.

 

Hard to get a feel for size based on pictures, I agree too, more statistics would be of interest....

[edinmass]

Well after a few drinks and some poking around, I’ll go out on a limb. The engine is a bit earlier than I first thought, I’ll go with 1917 or 1918, and a later carb installed. I’m thinking less boat and more race car. Almost certain of it. Looks like the builder was a fan of some early aircraft designs. I’m intrested to see the pistons and ring set up. 

[capngrog]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Can we have the bore and stroke please? Any casting marks or numbers anywhere on the engine? Photos of the crank, rods, and pistons will help. Also oil pump. Thanks, Ed

 

Ed,

 

It looks to me that the engine has an external oil pump, as shown in the 15th (from the top) photo supplied by Rolf 1961.  Other photos of the engine show what appear to be external copper oil lines feeding various parts of the engine.  With that said, and upon further examination of the photos, it appears that the water pump and oil pump shown in photo no.15 do not match those installed on the engine in photo no.5.  I have to admit to confusion about this engine, so I think this thread will be better served if I just sit back, enjoy an adult beverage (or two ... ) and be quiet.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Guest Rolf1961]

15 hours ago, dictator27 said:

Italian automaker Lancia produced narrow angle V (10, 11, 13 and 20 degrees) engines starting about 1920.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

Can we have the bore and stroke please? Any casting marks or numbers anywhere on the engine? Photos of the crank, rods, and pistons will help. Also oil pump. Thanks, Ed

sory i forgot, it is a 85 cui (1,4 ltr.) engine. I will post some more pics of the crank rods and pistons today

[Guest Rolf1961]

2 hours ago, capngrog said:

 

Ed,

 

It looks to me that the engine has an external oil pump, as shown in the 15th (from the top) photo supplied by Rolf 1961.  Other photos of the engine show what appear to be external copper oil lines feeding various parts of the engine.  With that said, and upon further examination of the photos, it appears that the water pump and oil pump shown in photo no.15 do not match those installed on the engine in photo no.5.  I have to admit to confusion about this engine, so I think this thread will be better served if I just sit back, enjoy an adult beverage (or two ... ) and be quiet.

 

Cheers,

Grog

thx, they do match

[Guest Rolf1961]

3 minutes ago, Rolf1961 said:

 

sory i forgot, it is a 85 cui (1,4 ltr.) engine. I will post some more pics of the crank rods and pistons today

what we know is that it is no Lancia (neither a Lambda nor a Dilambda)

[George Smolinski]

19 hours ago, Rolf1961 said:

thx, i will check this again

 

Rolf,

I have no clue as to what the engine is, but I believe we would all appreciate you posting photos of the cars in the background.

[trimacar]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well after a few drinks and some poking around, I’ll go out on a limb. The engine is a bit earlier than I first thought, I’ll go with 1917 or 1918, and a later carb installed. I’m thinking less boat and more race car. Almost certain of it. Looks like the builder was a fan of some early aircraft designs. I’m intrested to see the pistons and ring set up. 

Ed, do you still feel it's a racing engine after hearing the displacement, very small engine?  Midget race cars maybe?  I don't think I've ever heard of such a small 8 cylinder, much less one with all these odd features.  It sure would be great to find out what it is...

[1937hd45]

tMaybe it is an early stationary power source like the Coventry Climax, than went on to have a fairly good racing history. Bob 

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=coventry+climax+fire+pump+engine&qpvt=coventry+climax+fire+pump+engine&view=detail&mid=7F8F966A9BFE6FAD54B07F8F966A9BFE6FAD54B0&rvsmid=03F55E4D6CF5BBD8277703F55E4D6CF5BBD82777&FORM=VDQVAP

Edited November 22, 2017 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

The Rome Turney radiator may be a clue. Let us suppose the engine builder sourced the radiator locally from the nearest radiator company that would make a custom order. That may put the builder in central New York state. There were several car companies in upstate New York at the time. Pierce Arrow has been mentioned, then there was Franklin (but they didn't use radiators) Thomas and possibly Curtis in Hammondsport. I mention Curtis even though they did not make cars, they did make motorcycles for a short time as well as airplanes.

 

The engine is apparently a one off experimental design. It does not look to me like a racing engine or boat engine or airplane engine. Combine it with the radiator and grille shell and it looks like parts of an experimental car. It may have been made by someone hoping to sell engines to an auto maker, or sell the design. Let us not forget Herschell-Spillman of North Tonawanda New York, supplier of  engines to Peerless and others and a V8 specialist.

 

It is a long shot but to me Herschell-Spillman would be one of the first places to look.

[Rusty_OToole]

Can anyone date the carburetor, generator and distributor? They may date the engine.

 

The small displacement argues against it being an American car engine but the American radiator and accessories argue against it being anything else.

 

The race car group may be in the lead. What class of race car, or boat, would use an 85 cu in engine with single carburetor,  generator and coil ignition in the mid 20s?

 

Could it have something to do with the new AAA 91 1/2 cu in formula introduced for 1926?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[dictator27]

Post #8 Rusty.  Carb has patent date of 1926 and distributor used by Auburn on 1926 Lycoming engined 8-88.  Probably other Lycoming engined cars.

Usually Stromberg carbs have a model number on the float cover.  This one doesn't.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Engine size and date of accessories point to 1926 91.5 AAA formula but generator distributor ignition and single carb point to road use not to mention the rad and grille. I would expect a racing engine to have magneto dual carbs and no generator.

[edinmass]

Like most race engines, they tended to be run for a decade. Looking at the casting and cam drive, for 1926 it’s the Stone Age. For 1917-1919 it looks right. The coil looks early to me, as does the water pump. One can never tell with very low or one off stuff. Very small displacement makes me think England or the continent. Most Americans wouldn’t fuss with a small displacement engine, unless it is some sort of sanctioned class racing event. Looking at the internals and pistons will help, sure looks American to me...........I love a good mystery!

Edited November 22, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Quote

I'm confused, and the gas and air mixture would have been also if this was in any type of race car. Bob 

 

[edinmass]

Any update on the engine?

[jeff_a]

How about Fred ¨Skinny¨ Clemons(1889-1945)? He was a race car driver who later was shop foreman for Frontenac, then built racing engines from scratch. Some for Indy-Class race cars, some SOHC. Both 4- and 8-cylinder Clemons engines were raced at the Indy 500.

Edited December 6, 2017 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[KRK Sr.]

Rolf, My Delco book shows the distributor used in the following vehicles: Atterbury 1921- 22 model R, Elcar 8R Continental, 1922-23 Kelly Springfield model K40 &30. I am sure others too. With this info I would guess this engine is from 1920-1923. Karl

[HarryJ]

I thought this was a unique engine.

[Ivan Saxton]

If the radiator is an original match with the engine, it should be traceable through the records of Rome Turney Radiator Co, which should still exist unless they were trashed by the person in California who purchased the company.  If someone can access a comprehensive index to Horseles Carriage Club Gazette, you can learn who obtained all the tooling and records.  Previous to that , the then elderly owner who had preserved all that and had been involved for very many decades, seemed to indicate that he could still make any new radiator which they had made, exactly as original..  There are two different items you need to look for,  possibly several years apart.  The previous HCC Gazette editor John C Meyer III may be the best person to ask.

I would like to see photos of the inside of the engine.   The design and strength of the internal working parts might indicate to us what rev range it was intended to run.  I agree the date is very likely beginning of the 1920s.  It appears that the projected planes of the cylinders in a narrow angle like the Lancia Lambda intersect below the crankshaft.  There is some clever mathematics needed to get that right.    There are several features whereby this engine is better than the Lancia Lambda.   The exhaust ports for an exhaust manifold on each side of the head is better than Lancia's two exhaust ports at the rear.   The Stromberg RF carburettor is nice, but it would be interesting to know the flange diameter.  I have gathered a Stromberg OF carb, which has a bronze body and much more sophisticated tuning adjustments than the standard T Ford carbys, but bolts horizontally to the standard intake manifold. That RF is made for much greater air flow on something like a Roof, Rajo, or Frontenac special head for T model. So I guess that the "F" may indicate intended use for Ford.   There are 11 cylinder head studs for this engine, compared to just six head studs on the 2.2litre Lambda engine.  Head gasket leakage has often been a problem with the Lancia;  so much so that a considerable number of up-graded cylinder blocks and heads have been made in recent times to avoid that problem.    The engine most similar in style and era to this one is the Drexell, which is noticed in a separate thread below.  I am aware of the Drexell through a brief feature of it in one of Stan Yost's books of automotive curiosity in the 1960s.  He may have sourced his information from Detroit Public Library,  though the Drexall was made in 1917 in Illinois.   If you search "Drexell automobile in Google you will see illustration of the 4 cylinder engine with twin overhead camshafts driven by chain.  It is said to be 3 1/2"bore and 5"stroke, which is about 190 cubic inch displacement, and it was stated to rev to 3600rpm, which is believable, but getting up there for 1917.   The engine was said to be a Farmer, with which I am unfamiliar.   The 1916 Farmac car became the Drexell in 1916.  One other odd, that is, rare car which had an engine that reportedly had a normal rev range to 4000 rpm in that era was the Phianna.  You can also access this by searching "SGV automobile " in Google. The initials stood for Sternberg, Graham, and Van Tyne. The latter as said to have connections with Lancia.   The first cars appear to be a very close copy of the 1911 Lancia Delta Such as the one I have. Later ones were copy of the later 4 cylinder Epsilon or Eta models, but with mirror image engines to better suit left hand driving position.  Miles Harold Carpenter  became involved, and a wealthy friend purchased it for Carpenter to make excellent expensive cars .  The overhead valve 6 cylinder engine which he built to replace the Lancia-derived side valve four cylinder jobs  had 4 inch bore and stroke, and were claimed to be very smooth at high rpm.

Carpenter's autobiographical account of his career was written by him for the Automobilists of the Upper Hudson Valley,  and probably extract of that comes up with that Google search for SGV.