Stearns Knight

[Mark66A]

Would be interesting to know if you still think the gear ratio is under 4:1.  That motor should be able to top out around 4,000 rpm....I just wouldn't hold it there too long.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, Mark66A said:

Would be interesting to know if you still think the gear ratio is under 4:1.  That motor should be able to top out around 4,000 rpm....I just wouldn't hold it there too long.

 

Although I've tried to do it a number of times,  I've never been able to nail down the counting the drive shaft revolutions vs wheel revolutions thing.  Theoretically it should be straightforward.

[F&J]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Although I've tried to do it a number of times,  I've never been able to nail down the counting the drive shaft revolutions vs wheel revolutions thing.  Theoretically it should be straightforward.

You must have read some of the internets' overly complicated ways...OH, i've seen some real doozies...

 

So simple on open driveshaft cars:

 

Note: (Before making any marks, slightly rotate the tire a bit in the direction you will be turning, to take the slop factor out of the ring/pinion lash)

 

-jack only one rear wheel up, barely off the floor. (the other wheel must not turn at all).

-put a mark on the outermost edge of the tire sidewall closest to the floor. (masking tape is used on a show car tire)

-put a mark on the floor lined up exactly to the tire mark.

 

-put a mark on back end of driveshaft near the axle housing

-put a mark on axle housing lined up exactly with driveshaft mark

 

-now slowly rotate the tire exactly 2 turns while counting turns of the driveshaft mark.

 

A "Training" Example that is easier to grasp: If the driveshaft goes exactly 4 turns, not even a bit less, nor even a bit more, it is a 4:00-1 ratio.

 

-if driveshaft turns just a bit over 4 turns, but not as near to 4-1/4 turns, it would be a 4:10-1 (if your Stearns Data shows a 4:10 option)  (If your Data only shows a 4:20-1, your mark would be much closer to the 4-1/4 turns, but not quite 4-1/4 turns).

 

-if it is about 4-3/4 turns and your Data shows an optional ratio of 4:78-1, then that's what it is.

 

Posi:  Both wheels up off floor, same marks, but only ONE turn of tire, as you are not compensating for the spider gears in a non-posi rear end

[edinmass]

I’m certain it’s very, very tall ratio.......we will check it in the next few days. Went to NAPA and got a late 1929 Stearns Knight oil pan for 17.99..........the original was cracked and had epoxy on it that was failing.........just another small block Chevy part............we are very fortunate that friends are interested in seeing our car out and running. So the new used pan is ready to go..........the car is continuing to get dialed in.......we did a break adjustment and clutch adjustment today........oil pan will go in next week.........

[Bloo]

20 minutes ago, F&J said:

-jack only one rear wheel up, barely off the floor. (the other wheel must not turn at all).

-put a mark on the outermost edge of the tire sidewall closest ----snip----

This^^  This is the right way. If only F&J's post could be substituted for all the wrong ones floating around the Internet......

 

Works on torque tubes too if you have 2 people, just put the driveshaft mark on the front engine pulley instead, take the spark plugs out, and put the transmission in 1:1 direct (usually high gear).

 

[alsancle]

27 minutes ago, F&J said:

You must have read some of the internets' overly complicated ways...OH, i've seen some real doozies...

 

So simple on open driveshaft cars:

 

Note: (Before making any marks, slightly rotate the tire a bit in the direction you will be turning, to take the slop factor out of the ring/pinion lash)

 

-jack only one rear wheel up, barely off the floor. (the other wheel must not turn at all).

-put a mark on the outermost edge of the tire sidewall closest to the floor. (masking tape is used on a show car tire)

-put a mark on the floor lined up exactly to the tire mark.

 

-put a mark on back end of driveshaft near the axle housing

-put a mark on axle housing lined up exactly with driveshaft mark

 

-now slowly rotate the tire exactly 2 turns while counting turns of the driveshaft mark.

 

A "Training" Example that is easier to grasp: If the driveshaft goes exactly 4 turns, not even a bit less, nor even a bit more, it is a 4:00-1 ratio.

 

-if driveshaft turns just a bit over 4 turns, but not as near to 4-1/4 turns, it would be a 4:10-1 (if your Stearns Data shows a 4:10 option)  (If your Data only shows a 4:20-1, your mark would be much closer to the 4-1/4 turns, but not quite 4-1/4 turns).

 

-if it is about 4-3/4 turns and your Data shows an optional ratio of 4:78-1, then that's what it is.

 

Posi:  Both wheels up off floor, same marks, but only ONE turn of tire, as you are not compensating for the spider gears in a non-posi rear end

 

Thanks Frank!!   I'm sure Ed knew how to do that but I have struggled for years.   I see a couple of differences in what you are saying and what I've been told.   For example only jacking a single side of an non-posi rear end.

[edinmass]

There will be a brief intermission while I get over the Covid for the second time in four months.......Ed

Edited March 31, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

Well, I'm out of intermission popcorn so I'll jump in here while the main show is still on break. I recently have been working on J S/N 11961, Engine #H1161. During that time I posted here a photo of the wrapper for the correct fan belt NAPA #25-24465. I was fortunate to have an original fan belt on the car to measure. I am currently finishing work on two engines, #H853 (former saw mill motor now in a modified SK H chassis that was turned into a race car in the early 1930's) and #H761 in car S/N H15753. With assurance that I knew the correct fan belt number, I ordered two from NAPA. Wrong!! They were too short. Fortunately I had the original belt off of engine H1161 and a very old one off the saw mill motor H853. They are different lengths! Pete and I have noticed that Stearns made running changes on the engines with little documentation. Engine H761 and H853 are early to mid 1929 motors. The J I'd worked on is a very late 1929 motor. I knew late 1929 motors had different sleeve ports and eccentric shafts, but we now know they also changed the pulley wheels for the fan belt. Would the Stearns engineers please chime in with a reason for the change? I'm heading back to NAPA tomorrow to figure out the right fan belt. I'll let you know here.

[edinmass]

I learned a few new things today also.......but need to come to terms with them before I post them.......

[Cookie Man]

[Mark66A]

Sorry for the delay in posting the photo of the fan belt wrapper for the earlier Stearns Knight H engines.  Got this one at Tractor Supply in honor of Ed's appreciation for tractor mechanics.

[alsancle]

When was the last time you saw an eight cylinder Stearns Knight out at night in every day traffic?

 

It is astounding to me how much of an improvement Ed has made it to this car in the last 18 months.

[alsancle]

I posted this in the trip thread, but I’ll put it here too for those of you not reading entire forum. We did a 7 mile trip through heavy Palm Beach traffic today to lunch. Temp was Around 80°.

 

Only problem was some momentary vapor lock which was taken care of by engaging the electric pump. Ed thinks that on any days over 75 we’re going to need to run the electric pump. Mechanical pump is new.

 

 

[alsancle]

This is from Walt's archive and he was kind enough to give me permission to post it.   Obviously an early version of the straight eight.   Has anyone seen this before?

 

 

[edinmass]

Much different than what is in my garage. Neat piece. Walt is the best……

[Mark66A]

It is a page from the late '28 or early '29 Deluxe Eight brochure. Note 2 blade fan - 4 blade fan installed in cars sold in large cities, exhaust manifold prior to Skinner Oil rectifier, "normal" oil pan - late cars like the Victoria had the pan with the oil level device.

[58L-Y8]

Would this be the engine and chassis of the 1927 Model G-8?

[Mark66A]

I believe that the G chassis used the same chassis as the F (6 cyl).  The G also used the F radiator and as a result had some overheating issues. The H/J chassis came out in early 28 and was a major change from the F/G chassis. It is very rigid and the frame is boxed from the front frame horns back to the end of the engine compartment. Some folks have seen Peter's show chassis and commented that they thought it was a heavy truck chassis.

 

[Mark66A]

Here is something I've always wondered about. The known production of H & J cars was 713 with about 20 known today. That is a survivor rate of about 2.8%.  The known G car production was 641 cars. I only know of 3 survivors. That would be a survivor rate of 0.4%.  Makes me think that there are a few more G cars out there somewhere. Higher volume dealers were located in New York, Boston, Montreal, Chicago, Boise, Seattle & L.A. So, please go hunting for more of these cars.

[John_Mereness]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:17 PM, Mark66A said:

Here is something I've always wondered about. The known production of H & J cars was 713 with about 20 known today. That is a survivor rate of about 2.8%.  The known G car production was 641 cars. I only know of 3 survivors. That would be a survivor rate of 0.4%.  Makes me think that there are a few more G cars out there somewhere. Higher volume dealers were located in New York, Boston, Montreal, Chicago, Boise, Seattle & L.A. So, please go hunting for more of these cars.

The WOKR / Club has been around a long time and so has the collecor car hobby - maybe another 1 or 2 cars out there somewhere (one in a garage unfound, one in a collection where the person could have cared less and tucked it away, and/or perhaps one overseas = all a best case scenerio), but what is known is pretty much what survives.

[Peterwoyen]

There is a story of one hidden away in/ near Salt Lake.  Perhaps in some collection.  I don't know what model it is.  Apparently an uncommunicative owner.  No doubt there might be a car or two in Canada as well.  Who knows what might exist in some small town museum somewhere also?  Stuff that's been sitting for 60-70 years and collected by people 2-3 generations ago. 

 

Another elusive 45-90 would be a very interesting find.  Only one is known to exist and it is restored and living in California.  Ex Harrah car and apparently one that Barney Oldfield raced. 

We saw a picture of a Montana firetruck 45-90 once.  Whatever happened to that?

 

As for me, my restoration calendar is filled for the next 100 years.  Chuckle..     

    

[Mark66A]

Working on getting two H-6-90 engines running soon. Both dormant for over 50 years. Still need to install radiators and fuel pumps. Everything else is ready!

[edinmass]

Photos please! If you can. Understand if you can’t. 

[BobinVirginia]

Just curious, how many engines and cars are thought to still exist? 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, BobinVirginia said:

Just curious, how many engines and cars are thought to still exist? 

 

Probably 11...........and a few parts engines that are not well.........Mark would know better than anyone else.

Edited May 7, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

I count 23 cars existing. They include 3 G series 1927 to early 1928 using the F six cyl chassis. H and J series were all 1928 &1929 designed with a new chassis. 

9 H series (137" WB). They include 3 Coupes, 3 five pass sedans, 1 Cabriolet, 1 five Pass Coupe -burned up in a fire but hulk remains, and 1 Speedster cut down to a race car in 1930s.

11 J Series (135" WB). They include 1 Brunn Town Cabriolet, 1 Brunn Convertible Victoria, 2 Informal (divided) limousines, 1 seven Pass Touring (built to original dimensions from a salvaged sedan, 6 seven Pass sedans (Including 1 street rod).

I know of 2 H spare engines, and parts for perhaps 2 more. Likely 3 H transmissions - I'll have to count them sometime. All H&J series cars engines were designated as H engines and had very early AC fuel pumps. The G engines used a Vacuum tank. There were three versions of sleeves and two versions of eccentric shafts (cams to the uninitiated}.  The very latest cars had the option of a 2bbl updraft tillotson carb as well as thermostatically controlled louvers in front of the radiator. Stearns was run by engineers - so there were uncounted running changes - usually minor -that were done to improve the product. Not unusual to see changes occuring every 10 to 20 serial numbers.

[edinmass]

Now that is an answer! From the little bit I have learned about them……almost no two cars were alike…….in many different ways. Truly a unique and unusual marque. Every major collection should have one……but that’s clearly impossible. Had a visitor over the other day……a good friend. Somehow he didn’t know I was working on the Stearns. He was impressed with the car, knew exactly what it was, and immediately wanted a ride. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Now that is an answer! From the little bit I have learned about them……almost no two cars were alike…….in many different ways. Truly a unique and unusual marque. Every major collection should have one……but that’s clearly impossible. Had a visitor over the other day……a good friend. Somehow he didn’t know I was working on the Stearns. He was impressed with the car, knew exactly what it was, and immediately wanted a ride. 

You should have Mark's spreadsheet,  unless he doesn't trust you with it. Which I can understand.

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

You should have Mark's spreadsheet,  unless he doesn't trust you with it. Which I can understand.

I don’t blame him. Besides, if I have any questions I’ll just call him. 😎

[BobinVirginia]

@Mark66A

 

Thank you for that way better than expected answer! Great information on a very interesting brand. 

[edinmass]

Finally sorted the Right Hand Drive Auburn. Took it down 95 this morning. Running like the wind. Phil and I are out to breakfast. 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

Finally sorted the Right Hand Drive Auburn. Took it down 95 this morning. Running like the wind. Phil and I are out to breakfast. 

 

 

I see one overwhelming issue with breakfast.   Who remembered their wallet?

[BobinVirginia]

13 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Finally sorted the Right Hand Drive Auburn. Took it down 95 this morning. Running like the wind. Phil and I are out to breakfast. 

Sounds like a great way to start a day! 

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I see one overwhelming issue with breakfast.   Who remembered their wallet?

We have you to thank, and your debit card. It was a large breakfast, and you were a big tipper. 🤑

[Mark66A]

More detail info I thought of after I sent the last message.  Regarding the three G cars...One is a "to die for" cabriolet black with red interior and is in Ohio. One is a RHD sedan located in Australia. It sold at auction a few years ago and I have lost track of it. Nice car.  The third car is a sedan that was undergoing restoration.  Owner lost interest and it was sold uncompleted at an auction a few years ago in the Virginia area. The chassis was done. I sent him a replacement crankcase, but I don't think he finished the motor.  If you want to track it down, I have the previous owner info. 

Interesting tidbit on H engines..... Initially the H (and G) engines used copper oil lines to deliver pressurized oil to the main bearings.  An improvement was made and the cranks were drilled - running the oil into the rear main and through the crankshaft. Later production cars went back to the un-drilled cranks with copper lines delivering the oil. I don't know why. Art speculated there may have been a weakness discovered in the drilled cranks... but nobody knows. Also the late S/N cars used a slightly different oil pan to accommodate an oil level sensing device. The green sedan in the AACA museum has that feature as well as the chariot Ed is working on. There may be a few more but I have not chased after that info.

[BobinVirginia]

7 hours ago, Mark66A said:

More detail info I thought of after I sent the last message.  Regarding the three G cars...One is a "to die for" cabriolet black with red interior and is in Ohio. One is a RHD sedan located in Australia. It sold at auction a few years ago and I have lost track of it. Nice car.  The third car is a sedan that was undergoing restoration.  Owner lost interest and it was sold uncompleted at an auction a few years ago in the Virginia area. The chassis was done. I sent him a replacement crankcase, but I don't think he finished the motor.  If you want to track it down, I have the previous owner info. 

Interesting tidbit on H engines..... Initially the H (and G) engines used copper oil lines to deliver pressurized oil to the main bearings.  An improvement was made and the cranks were drilled - running the oil into the rear main and through the crankshaft. Later production cars went back to the un-drilled cranks with copper lines delivering the oil. I don't know why. Art speculated there may have been a weakness discovered in the drilled cranks... but nobody knows. Also the late S/N cars used a slightly different oil pan to accommodate an oil level sensing device. The green sedan in the AACA museum has that feature as well as the chariot Ed is working on. There may be a few more but I have not chased after that info.

WOW!!! That’s next level information! I’m not within a circle that would know of such cars. 

[edinmass]

Fun side note. I met Mark many years ago at Hershey related to Stromberg carburetors. Fast forward fifteen years, and he’s helping me get the 29 Brunn sorted correctly. It’s always fun when the hobby comes full circle. 

[edinmass]

 

The 1929 Stearns Knight Brunn Convertible Victoria is now "finished sorting". We still have a very few small items to look at, but we plan on driving it 500 miles this summer before we do the final punch list. It's now a turn key driver. It's dependable, starts great hot or cold. Doesn't overheat in Florida summer weather at speed. We actually used it as a second car last week when my GMC Duramax gave up the ghost. Overall a great adventure taking a piece of garage art for the last 60 years and turning it into a driver. As usual when working on exotic power plants.........the best part is new friends in the hobby. The world of sleeve valve eight engines is small.....how small? I think more men have walked on the moon than have extensive experience with these unusual and wonderful cars. If I had the opportunity I would jump at one of these big eights. They are exceptionally drivable for a late 20's car. Not much better American cars were available from the 27-29 era. I'll probably never end up owning one.......but having access for two years with this unique show car was a privilege. AJ and I are talking about running it on a CCCA caravan, or maybe a Glidden. The car checks ALL the boxes.......one off, show car, documented history from new, mechanically unusual, drivable and useable car........any important collection without a big sleeve vale car just isn't complete. This car gets my rarely given......👍👍👍 three thumbs up. I won't post much more about the car, except when we take it to a show or tour. It's come full circle......nothing better than a CCCA exotic thats a runner. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

Gee Ed it all makes sense now,  back in the 20's -30's you paid by the foot or by the pound or both.  Now I know why the Plymouth was so cheap.  Not Much of either.  

[edinmass]

This car was 10,000 new........a dollar a pound!