1963 Corvair Spyder Turbo

[victorialynn2]

 

Looking for opinions on value for this car. My father likes to keep cars original and I wouldn't be surprised if it has matching numbers as most of his cars do. He has AZ so can not help me. I've sold many of his cars and didn't want to part with this one, but I must. This hasn't run in a while, haven't tried to start it and he has owned it since the 1980's.

Please only post if you want to help, not if you are looking to take advantage of the situation or do not value Corvairs. I get that not everyone appreciates them. I appreciate all helpful info. 

 

Pics; https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1j_Rb5rf7tyZGtGbE15RUdiLXc

[kgreen]

Wow, that looks to be in great shape!  Check this forum: http://www.corvairforum.com/forum/index.php

 

For order of magnitude, I saw a 62 Monza turbo for $4,900, but have no idea of its condition.  Get a better estimate and good luck.

[alsancle]

Convertible, 4 speed and a turbo.  That feels like a winning combination.   I hope some of the corvair guys chime in with something intelligent.

 

Here is the identical car for sale at 15k (but with a wash and wax)

 

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/839165/1963-chevrolet-corvair-for-sale-in-mokena-illinois-60448

[victorialynn2]

1 hour ago, sixseven said:

Wow, that looks to be in great shape!  Check this forum: http://www.corvairforum.com/forum/index.php

 

For order of magnitude, I saw a 62 Monza turbo for $4,900, but have no idea of its condition.  Get a better estimate and good luck.

Thank you!  I appreciate the link!

Edited November 15, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

Alsancle,

 

Thank you. Yes, it's a desirable car, which is why I didn't want to sell it. I'd love to spruce it up and drive it but I want another car more and don't have room for two. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

If it were running, the value would increase dramatically. 

[hullinger]

I've got some knowledge of Corvairs.  This being a '63 is considered an Early Model (EM) while the '65 - '69 are Late Models.  It seems the LM's command a bit higher price but generally all Corvair cars are relatively affordable.  As with any car line, there are always outliners that command high dollar premiums based on mileage, serial number.....  So given your car is the 'halo' car for EM Corvairs and assuming it isn't running, I would give a price in the $4K - $6K range.  Remember that without it running and driving the new owner would be taking all the risk as well as needing to perform all the maintenance to make it road worthy.  If YOU invested the cash to get it roadworthy and sorted properly, I would suspect a realistic price to be around the $10K mark.  So, not knowing your mechanical ability, I would guess that it might cost $2K - $4K to get her on the road again and so you would add some additional extra profit for your effort, as long as there is no significant problems to deal with.  On the bright side, every single mechanical part you would need is easily available through Clarks Corvair at Corvair.com and through the fine and friendly folks at Corvaircenter.com

[victorialynn2]

3 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

Thanks Hullinger. Maybe I need to sell something else first and wait until I can work on this a bit. I wanted to be done with it all, and don't have the $$ to fix it up now, but sounds like it would be worth it. I appreciate the info.

 

 

[joe_padavano]

While not perfect, I find that searching completed auctions on sites like ebay is one of the most accurate methods to get an idea of value.  Asking prices or auctions that don't meet reserve are irrelevant.  I only pay attention to auctions that have closed and where cash has changed hands.  As I pointed out, even that isn't foolproof, as you will see cars that supposedly "sold" come up for sale with the exact same ad a few weeks later.

In any case, this is only one data point.  There are a number of sites that mine completed auction data.  I use collectorcarpricetracker.com. They show only a handful of turbo Corvairs.  In 2014, this 1963 turbo convertible four speed sold for $7000. Take a look at the condition of this car vs. yours and decide what yours might be worth. There were several others in that ballpark. Good luck,

[victorialynn2]

4 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

While not perfect, I find that searching completed auctions on sites like ebay is one of the most accurate methods to get an idea of value.  Asking prices or auctions that don't meet reserve are irrelevant.  I only pay attention to auctions that have closed and where cash has changed hands.  As I pointed out, even that isn't foolproof, as you will see cars that supposedly "sold" come up for sale with the exact same ad a few weeks later.

In any case, this is only one data point.  There are a number of sites that mine completed auction data.  I use collectorcarpricetracker.com. They show only a handful of turbo Corvairs.  In 2014, this 1963 turbo convertible four speed sold for $7000. Take a look at the condition of this car vs. yours and decide what yours might be worth. There were several others in that ballpark. Good luck,

Thanks. Yes, as a former Realtor I understand solds are a better judge. Thanks for the info!

[Guest]

Where is the car located? (state)

[victorialynn2]

6 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Where is the car located? (state)

Texas, about 2 hours west of Austin

[Rusty_OToole]

You need to be careful. If you want top price the car has to be in top condition and this can be expensive. You MUST know what you are doing and can't make any mistakes because people willing to pay top price are very picky and knowledgeable. They expect everything to be perfect. Most of the time it is better to sell as is.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest GT52]

That particular Corvair is getting pretty close to Corvair Holy Grail, but unfortunately even the best Corvairs don't bring a lot of money.  If we were talking Chevelle or Camaro Holy Grail, there'd be people beating a path to your door to pay very high 5 figures for a car in that condition.  "Running and driving" will always bring more money, but I'd be careful messing with it if you're going to be paying someone retail labor rates to get it running for you...you could easily end up spending more money than you can get back.  The buyer who would pay the most "as-is" would be a Corvair enthusiast who either wants to do a minimal sympathetic restoration on it, or one looking to build a trailered show car of a rare model regardless of what it costs.  The most likely place to find that person would be on a Corvair forum.

 

If you're considering at all keeping one of your father's cars as a keepsake, that Corvair might just be the one to keep.  You're not going to get a huge amount selling it anyway, and it appears to not be needing a huge amount of work to get it back on the road.  Being air-cooled with no power steering, no power brakes, no smog, and no a/c, it should be a relatively trouble free occasional driver once you get it running.  Corvairs are surprisingly nice driving cars, with an amazingly contemporary "feel" compared to some of the land-barges of the early 60s.

[padgett]

One thing is that it would be much easier to sell if it runs since the whole drivetrain can be checked out. The picture does look like the engine is complete.

 

Might also mention that while a marque forum is a good place to get information, it is often a terrible place to sell a car unless really cheap or unique.

[victorialynn2]

30 minutes ago, GT52 said:

If you're considering at all keeping one of your father's cars as a keepsake, that Corvair might just be the one to keep.  You're not going to get a huge amount selling it anyway, and it appears to not be needing a huge amount of work to get it back on the road.  Being air-cooled with no power steering, no power brakes, no smog, and no a/c, it should be a relatively trouble free occasional driver once you get it running.  Corvairs are surprisingly nice driving cars, with an amazingly contemporary "feel" compared to some of the land-barges of the early 60s.

I love this car and have considered keeping it. I appreciate the info. ~Victoria

[mike6024]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Might also mention that while a marque forum is a good place to get information, it is often a terrible place to sell a car unless really cheap or unique.

Yes putting it for sale on the Corvair forum will probably attract low-ball offers from those looking for a steal. After all they probably already have one.

[Paul Dobbin]

 

All this advice is good and correct.  The reason the value is low is the Covair's history and bad publicity caused by Ralph Nader's book "Unsafe At Any Speed" gave the car a bad rap 50 years ago.  Consequently values have lagged way behind other convertibles of this vintage.  Actually people who have them now love them partially because they are cheap to buy and operate.  Many owners have been hoping for years that they will catch on with other collectors and increase dramatically in value, but that has no happened for most Corvairs.

As with other collectable cars, CONDITION is everything.  The better the condition, the higher the value. Undercarriage rust could be a problem and a bondo laden body could kill it's value.  

If you decide to keep it, you'll have something more special to you than to others in it's present condition.  Thanks for sharing  your story, but they all look good in pictures and CONDITION on inspection by the buyer determines it's value.

[alsancle]

Selling it non-running is a risk/reward sort of thing.  Anyone buying a non-running car (that turns over) is going to discount things in their head. Trying to get it running could lead to a bigger discount when you find a stuck valve or some other issue.  Best to leave it alone and hope for a seller that is optimistic on the mechanics.

 

As for the low values,  I think the styling is what has hurt the Corvair the most.  Back in the 60s it was Ralph Nader screwing things up but these days I don't think that matters as much.  It is basically an American Porsche mechanically but the values don't quite equate, do they?

[Restorer32]

Few American cars of the '60s are as fun to drive as the Corvair. Hated mine with a passion but it was fun to drive.

[Larry Schramm]

We had a '64 Monza with a 4 speed.  It was a great car that was fun to drive.  Drove it to about 150,000 miles before we sold it. 

 

It was great in the winter with a set of radial tires on it. It would go almost anywhere.

[padgett]

Have had a number of Corvairs (last one a 66 vert this century) and really liked them. Biggest problem was they were "different" and had problems (like replacing the push rod tube seals so they do not leak). Also had a habit of throwing belts unless you installed a keeper and spring mounted pulley but at least that turned a warning light on.

 

And then there were the thermostatically controlled engine air vents. Stick closed (cold position) and overheating without warning would soon follow (why I added a dual CHT gauge to my Monza).

 

Suspect the biggest detriment to family use was the lack of power steering (even worse if you installed the "quick steering" kit) and power tops were a rare option, most convertibles were manual).

 

Now rust particularly inside the rockers on convertibles is a real problem, drains would clog and water would collect.

 

Gearbox was just a repackaged powerglide (automatic) or Saginaw (3 and 4 speed) in a transaxle so no bit and Clarks has parts for everything.

 

Has a large following but many transitioned to Camaros (more hp and power everything) then Fieros (also rear engined and no power steering)

 

So really a neat car but need to find someone who likes them (and opinion is mixed on the turbo) who does not already have one. If mine I'd just go through it and enjoy. It is neat and not very common but also not very valuable.

[Guest GT52]

10 hours ago, mike6024 said:

Yes putting it for sale on the Corvair forum will probably attract low-ball offers from those looking for a steal. After all they probably already have one.

That isn't my experience at all...and nobody would make you sell it for a lowball offer.

 

I've watched some really high dollar transactions take place over forums over the years.  Guys who already own a particular marque tend to know other guys who would love to have one, but don't yet own one...and that is where most of the sales I've watched came from.  That, and don't you think there's a few guys with 4 door Corvairs hanging around the Corvair forums, that might be dying to upgrade to a Spyder convertible?   

Edited November 16, 2016 by GT52
add (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

3 hours ago, Imperial62 said:

I monitor craigs list every day and my biggest pet peeve (not saying this is you) is the next generation selling "dad's" or "Grandpa's" car just to fund a Caribbean vacation. Wish my dad would pass me down a nice car, but he has a Ford Ranger!  

For the record I have had to quit a very good paying job to take care of my father's stuff 2000 miles from my home. It has practically bankrupted me but have to pay for his care. This is not by any means a benefit to me and I have met many people making similar sacrifices for their family with AZ. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

I realize these are not high dollar cars, but I've sold two already and when in good condition there are buyers out there for a decent price. This one is harder to value since it doesn't run and is even rarer than the others. 

 

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. It's good to see all the opinions.

[padgett]

Just a thought but something I've done before. One of the nice things about a Corvair is that an engine swap is just a few hours. If it were here, I'd pull the turbo engine, spray oil in the cyl, and put it in a big baggie. No worries about running. Then replace with a good 95 or 110hp 164 that are common as dirt & go have fun. The next owner gets a good running 'vert and the original engine for display.

[Barney Eaton]

Victoria.....I have a Corvair club meeting tonight in Austin..... it is probably too late to give me more specifics on your location, but 2 hours would place you around Junction.

In 1962 -63 the  Spyders package was an option and is not reflected in the vin number......for that reason, the 62-63 are somewhat less desireable because you can take a wrecked Spyder and transfer the part to a Monza coupe and there is little to the untrained eye that will tell you it is not original.....in 1964 the Spyder became a model and the vin reflects that, making the '64 harder to clone and more desireable.

I will get anyone interested this link and they can follow up....we are seeing a renewed interest by younger folks, possibly because they are still inexpensive and parts are still available. 

 

The one thing I noticed is the interior...the white seats would have had white door panels and the rest of the door (metal part) would have been painted the body color.   In 50 years lots can happen to cars and someone looking for an original car would start to question what else has been changed.   The wire wheel covers shown on the car are 1964, again not original and easy to change. 

I purchased my first Corvair as a new 1960 Monza,  since that time I have owned 35+ Corvairs but today I am down to a 1965 Corsa convertible that I purchased in 1968

Barney Eaton

Life member of CORSA

Edited November 16, 2016 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[Digger914]

If our parents live long enough, at least one of the children will eventually be in the same position that you are now. Been there and I know what it's like.

 

Some cars are worth more than you can imagine because they are what they are, other cars bring more than they're worth because they're shinny and well photographed. Your dads Spider doesn't have to run to bring money, but the motor and turbo do need to turn free. This is a Corvair, if everything turns free, odds are that it will start and run after stripping down the carb and cleaning out the old gas crud.  Washing a car and scrubbing everything white to bright white doesn't cost much more than the time to do it and even a dad with dementia so bad that you have to tell him who you are can have an extended moment of clarity while helping you wash and wax his car. That alone makes the effort worthwhile.

 

To get the kind of interest that brings good money means a good bumper to bumper scrubbing and more pictures with a better background than the inside of a dusty old shed. The coming holidays do get in the path of potential buyers, so take those top down fun in the sun pictures now and sit on them until the middle of February and then you can sell a summer convertible that doesn't depreciate to people waist deep in winter, a stick shift turbo to the classic sports car fan and a genuine classic to the Corvair collector.

 

You have 10 pictures of a pig in a polk and it's hard to say what a car is worth when you don't know if the brakes are stuck, the clutch is frozen or the motor is seized. My best guess for value as it sits about 3 grand max. If it cleans up as good as it looks like it could and everything moves like it should, it's worth more. Running increases value considerably and good driving condition increases the number of potential buyers, so washed and running this should be about a 6 grand car that could bring as much as 12 to 16.

 

Put some air in the tires, push it outside, rinse the dust off and take a few photos that look better than a barn find and it will be easier to sell. Even if you can't get it started, finding out if the motor and turbo turns free might not increase the value as it sits, but it will increase the number of people willing to take a chance on it the way it sits and that increases the potential selling price because shinny well photographed cars can bring more than they're worth.

 

 

[victorialynn2]

4 hours ago, Barney Eaton said:

Victoria.....I have a Corvair club meeting tonight in Austin..... it is probably too late to give me more specifics on your location, but 2 hours would place you around Junction.

 

Thanks for the info Barney. I am close to Fredricksburg. 

[victorialynn2]

4 hours ago, Digger914 said:

Washing a car and scrubbing everything white to bright white doesn't cost much more than the time to do it and even a dad with dementia so bad that you have to tell him who you are can have an extended moment of clarity while helping you wash and wax his car. That alone makes the effort worthwhile.

Thanks for the info Digger. I do appreciate it. Sadly my father is now in a home as he is so advanced that he requires more care and supervision then I can give. I hear you on the advice. I would never try to sell a car without cleaning it up and taking better pics. I was just kind of stumped about this particular car and have gotten a lot of good feedback about it here. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Barney can really help you, he is a great guy.

[victorialynn2]

5 hours ago, Barney Eaton said:

In 1962 -63 the  Spyders package was an option and is not reflected in the vin number......for that reason, the 62-63 are somewhat less desireable because you can take a wrecked Spyder and transfer the part to a Monza coupe and there is little to the untrained eye that will tell you it is not original.....in 1964 the Spyder became a model and the vin reflects that, making the '64 harder to clone and more desireable.

I will get anyone interested this link and they can follow up....we are seeing a renewed interest by younger folks, possibly because they are still inexpensive and parts are still available. 

 

I appreciate all your info. I thought the VIN reflected the Spyder package because of this page. http://www.oldride.com/library/1963_chevrolet_corvair.html

The vin starts 30967... which I thought this page listed as a 900 Spyder, but now am assuming it's either that OR a Mazda? It does have the Spyder emblems and the Turbo engine. This car is turning into quite the research project!

[Barney Eaton]

One other person at the meeting tonight had heard about the car via one of the San Antonio Corvair club members....so everyone present at the meeting at least knows about the car now.

The 30967 breaks down like this..."3" is the year....0967 = 9 = the 900 series or Monza, 67 = convertible.   A Monza coupe would show 30927 and a 4 dr Monza sedan would be 30969.

In 1964 when the Monza Spyder became a separate series the number would be 40627 for a coupe, 40667 for a convertible.

There were 44,165 Monza Convertibles made in 1963 and that number included convertibles with the Spyder option...someone may know how many had the Spyder option but I have not located the number.

For comparison, in 1964 when the Spyder was a separate model that number = 4,761 convertibles and there were 31,045 Monza convertibles built ....adding both convertibles together, 13% were Spyders IF the ratio was the same in 1963 that would mean about 5,741 had the Spyder option 

That same body tag will tell you the original body color and trim (interior color)

[victorialynn2]

Thank you very much Barney. So there is no way to know if the engine is original on the '63? 

[victorialynn2]

23 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said:

For comparison, in 1964 when the Spyder was a separate model that number = 4,761 convertibles and there were 31,045 Monza convertibles built ....adding both convertibles together, 13% were Spyders IF the ratio was the same in 1963 that would mean about 5,741 had the Spyder option 

That same body tag will tell you the original body color and trim (interior color)

If I'm reading the link correctly that I posted above, and it's accurate, they state 7,472 Spyder's were made in '63.

[Digger914]

This little paragraph comes from an article Written by Simon Charlesworth, it provides some interesting GM Corvair turbo history.

US pioneers

The first production turbocharged car was the F85 Cutlass-based Oldsmobile Jetfire, which was launched at New York’s 1962 International Automobile Show. Running a 10.25:1 compression ratio with 5psi of boost, its 215bhp, 3.5-litre V8 gave a 16% power increase over the equivalent naturally aspirated unit. When specified with a manual four-speed, the Jetfire was capable of 0-60mph in 81/2 seconds and 107mph.

The model was criticised for its soft suspension, uncooperative transmission and slow steering. Its real problems, though, revolved around driving style and maintenance. The engine suffered from detonation issues, which meant that the single-barrel Rochester carburettor had to be cooled by Turbo-Rocket fluid injection – a mixture of water, methanol and corrosion inhibitor. Ironically, this was envisaged to cope with hard driving, yet frequently they weren’t driven hard enough. Another issue was keeping the one-gallon coolant injection reservoir topped up. Depending on driving style, it could last either 2240 miles or just 224. When empty, it triggered a throttle bypass valve. Many owners – rather than obtaining correct Olds Turbo-Rocket fluid – resorted to tap water. The result of either of these oversights was that the turbo’s compressor shaft would eventually seize. When the model was axed in 1964, just over 9500 had been sold.

Only a month after the launch of the Jetfire, Olds’ GM sister division, Chevrolet, came up with the turbocharged Corvair Monza Spyder. The Corvair was a rearengined variation of Olds’ front-engined Y-body compact, and was a response to rising fuel prices and the popularity of European imports. Enhancing the ‘poor man’s Porsche’ reputation of the sporting convertible and Club Coupe Monza models, the Spyder gave 150bhp from its 2.3-litre air-cooled flat-six – 0-60mph took 8.3 secs, while maximum speed was 103mph.

The Corvair’s installation (above) lacked a wastegate and coolant injection, yet it ran up to 11psi (twice that of the Olds) with a far lower 8:1 compression. Unsurprisingly, this affected low-down torque and resulted in obvious lag, while the carb required patience to set up and suffered from heat soak.

This unit was an option on the 1965 second generation Corvair Corsa, but was axed in 1966 – the year it was rumoured that GM had planned to discontinue all Corvairs when sales fell to less than half of 1965 levels.

[cheezestaak2000]

On 11/16/2016 at 11:32 AM, padgett said:

Have had a number of Corvairs (last one a 66 vert this century) and really liked them. Biggest problem was they were "different" and had problems (like replacing the push rod tube seals so they do not leak). Also had a habit of throwing belts unless you installed a keeper and spring mounted pulley but at least that turned a warning light on.

 

And then there were the thermostatically controlled engine air vents. Stick closed (cold position) and overheating without warning would soon follow (why I added a dual CHT gauge to my Monza).

 

Suspect the biggest detriment to family use was the lack of power steering (even worse if you installed the "quick steering" kit) and power tops were a rare option, most convertibles were manual).

 

Now rust particularly inside the rockers on convertibles is a real problem, drains would clog and water would collect.

 

Gearbox was just a repackaged powerglide (automatic) or Saginaw (3 and 4 speed) in a transaxle so no bit and Clarks has parts for everything.

 

Has a large following but many transitioned to Camaros (more hp and power everything) then Fieros (also rear engined and no power steering)

 

So really a neat car but need to find someone who likes them (and opinion is mixed on the turbo) who does not already have one. If mine I'd just go through it and enjoy. It is neat and not very common but also not very valuable.

ahh, many a fond moment spent wiping the oil film off the inside of the windsheild above the defroster (ha ha) ducts.

 

[victorialynn2]

1 minute ago, Imperial62 said:

I understand and meant no disrespect but rather that you are a tremendous lady for doing this. I was contrasting the poor decisions some folsk make with 2nd gen cars to what you are doing, and in the limited context of a forum it came off poorly, I apologize. 

No apology needed. Thanks.

[padgett]

Just to add a bit to Digger's post since few understand boost. Didn't need a wastegate because flow was limited by the 1 bbl Carter carb (OTOH I had a 750 cfm progressive Q'jet on a spider manifold and trombone exhaust on my Corsa. Made a bit more than 140 hp and response was instant). With a small draw through carb & a high enough demand from the turbo manifold vaccum starts increasing and limits the boost. Can see in the chart torque dropping off seriously above 3800 rpm as the carb started limiting flow. Open up the intake so it can flow properly and can maintain near 200 lb-ft of torque at 6,500 rpm. Of course  then you'd have a 250 hp Corvair outrunning Corvettes. (See Doug Roe's '60).

 

Meanwhile back at boosted engines, the lower the compression the better. Back before direct injection boost was limited by peak chamber pressure and flame front propagation. This means if you lower compression with a dished piston the flame front has about the same distance to travel but you increase the combustion chamber size. This means for the same peak chamber pressure a 8:1 engine has more fuel/air in the chamber than a 9:1. More F/A for the same pressure = More Power.

 

Also one thing the 'vair had that the aluminum Buick lacked was much better cylinder cooling (as long as kept up to snuff) and considerably lighter weight than the Olds.

 

That said I'd keep the 58 'vette also.

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[victorialynn2]

4 minutes ago, padgett said:

That said I'd keep the 58 'vette also.

 

Sadly all the Corvettes are long gone. I wish I was getting rid of those now. They are worth a lot more than what he has. LOL