1949 Kaiser-Frazer 4-door

[Guest darkfader]

Hello,

I am Mike from the California Gold Country, and I have my hands on what I think is a unique, and well preserved vehicle. A 1949 Kaiser-Frazer... 

Im not entirely sure what to do with her, but I wanted to get some opinions, and hopefully some direction. This car is in great condition, very minimal rust damage on exterior, just below doors... It seems to me like a great starting point for restoration, because it is practically immaculate by my standards. Plus the interior is absolutely tits.., original oil chg sticker from 1951 too.

 

Anyhow... Please post opinions, direction on how to properly sell it if i decide so, value, or whatever... Thanks

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Mike, welcome to the AACA discussion forum!

You'll find plenty of people here, most experts in some

form or another, who will give varying thoughts on your car.

 

You must like old cars, or you wouldn't have bought your Frazer.

Good!  They are an enjoyable hobby, and you and your family

and friends can make many fond memories with them.

 

You say you're thinking of some restoration.  There are many

different levels of restoration.  Most people do not do a total,

off-the-frame restoration, because most collectors have relatively

modest means, and a TOTAL restoration can cost $100,000 to

$200,000.  That would mean that every nut and bolt is taken

apart and refinished, every mechanical and electrical system

is rebuilt, and the entire car when done looks better than new.

 

No car is ever increased in value by the entire amount of 

restoration costs, so people do it--to whatever level--for fun,

to preserve history, and for the satisfaction of bringing

something back to beauty and useful life.

 

For your Frazer, you might want to get it in top mechanical

condition if it isn't already.  That way, you can drive it and

enjoy it reliably.  At some point, you might also repaint it, and have

at least the major chrome pieces (such as bumpers) replated.

Sure you could do more, but there's no need to jump in all at once.

Enjoy!

[Guest darkfader]

Thanks, John... I am considering restoration... But definitely less than the 100k option. If I sell, where should I start, do you think there is a market for this vehicle?

If so, what do you think she is worth, roughly judging from the pictures?

[keiser31]

Welcome and very cool car!

[John_S_in_Penna]

Does your car run?  Does it run properly

so that you can drive it at least around the 

neighborhood?  Or it is like some, stationary

for a few years, or 20 years, that will take 

at least a little work to be safely driveable?

That will definitely have an effect on its value.

 

And is it a 4-door sedan?  A car's body style

affects its value too.  Convertibles tend to be worth more,

2-door closed cars next in price, and 4-door closed cars

the most modestly valued.  But every car has a place

in history!

 

You can read about the history of Henry J. Kaiser

and the Kaiser and Frazer cars.  You'll find it interesting,

and it will increase your interest in your car tremendously.

He was an excellent ship-builder during World War II

who set production records and greatly contributed to

Western defense.  After the war, he went into the car

business--a major venture for a new company.

 

Probably the best book written about his cars is

"Kaiser Frazer:  The Last Onslaught on Detroit."

It was issued by Automobile Quarterly, which was the

foremost periodical on all sorts of automotive history.

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest darkfader]

She runs... But not tip-top condition. The interior is excellent, the spedometer, odometer, etc, is mint condition. She needs minor repairs, lube, and love to get her in proper driving condition... But it's easy stuff.

 

Yes, she is a 4-door.

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by darkfader (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Looks like it was originally off white. I would get it back to the original color, eventually.

[John_S_in_Penna]

There are at least a couple of price guides for antique

and collectible cars on the internet:

 

---www.nada.com.  From the National Automobile Dealers' Assn.

     Look for their pricing for antique cars, not modern cars.

     They tend to be a bit high, but at least it gives an upper bound.

---www.hagerty.com.  This company is a well reputed insurer of

     antique and collectible cars.

 

Probably the most used price guide is Old Cars Report Price Guide,

which is issued 6 times a year and which you can probably find on

your news-stand.  Their #1-to #6 condition rating system has become the

standard of the hobby:  #1 (a totally restored, perfect car, trailered to shows);

#3 (may look perfect from 20 feet away, but has wear or several minor flaws

visible on closer inspection--the typical car seen at local car shows);

to #5 (poor condition, needs total restoration);  to #6 (useful only for parts). 

 

Here is the annual book which I use.  It is produced by, and has the same

values as, the Old Cars Report Price Guide:

http://www.krausebooks.com/2017-collector-car-price-guide

 

I'd say your car is in #4 condition, from what I can see in the few pictures.

Once you get it running more reliably, my price guide, a year old but

likely still accurate, estimates a $4200 value.

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

16 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Looks like it was originally off white. I would get it back to the original color, eventually.

 

Are you sure, Keiser 31, that white was offered on Frazers in 1949?

White was a color almost never seen during the 1940's, and when

it came out in the mid-1950's, one reviewer regarded white cars

as showy and bold.  

 

I don't know what we're seeing as white underneath.

 

But actually (for Mike), if you repaint a car, it ABSOLUTELY

should be a color offered by the manufacturer in that year.

Some people like to see the car's specific color repainted,

but there's no harm in choosing another accurate factory color.

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest darkfader]

She is blue... But somebody in 1960, or so decided to brush on the off-white color. It is so faded that the white is practically flakinf off into a powder, almost like a primer effect. 

 

[keiser31]

I saw the firewall and so I figured it was a tan or beige which are 1949 Kaiser colors. I didn't know if the blue was over the light color or vise versa.

Interesting hood ornament!

Edited August 29, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

If you want to sell (but be sure to get another old car!),

the monthly magazine Hemmings Motor News,

and its accompanying website www.hemmings.com,

remain the foremost places for buying and selling

collectible cars and their parts.

 

Another place to sell a Frazer is the magazine of

the Kaiser Frazer Owners' Club.  Obviously, they

are a bunch dedicated to cars like yours.

 

People who may buy an old car may come from

several states away.  So advertise in something such

as Hemmings that reaches a big national audience.

Advertising in your local paper is expensive and usually

unproductive:  How many people seeking Frazers live in your town?

 

The market is middling, and a car must be priced

accurately if it is to sell.  For some reason, classic-car

dealers (in the hobby for profit) and the occasional

optimistic seller (perhaps misguided) may price

a car at much more than its value--even double its worth.

So don't judge value by ASKING prices.  If you price a 

car at 10% or 20% more than you want to get--and that way

used to be more common--you won't risk scaring people away.

 

And yes, cars in all conditions have buyers if they are

reasonably priced;  but getting a car running well and reliably

will probably help you sell it faster, if you choose that route.

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest darkfader]

Well said...

Yeah, the 'blue book' $4,000 is way low. But I see the potential value in her, with so little effort. Just minor fixes, and care... That could easily bring me 10k. Given that i find the right buyer.

 

[nick8086]

I think I have some stuff for that car.. Not sure if it is 47-48 Frazer.. free if you them pick up.. Not a hot item.. Just left overs..

 

Link for price:

 

http://car-from-uk.com/sale.php?id=29729

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Guest darkfader]

Nice! - how much $?

 

Btw, how do I know if mine is a Manhattan?

[nick8086]

4 minutes ago, darkfader said:

Nice! - how much $?

 

Btw, how do I know if mine is a Manhattan?

Look at the tags..

[nick8086]

I hope you have a this car :

 

I know some stuff on the kaisers - we had over 87 of them.. I worked on a 1954 and 1949,, Kaiser..I am  Not a good resource on the Frazer ..  I have Mopars and Chev's..

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[1939_Buick]

1 hour ago, darkfader said:

Yeah, the 'blue book' $4,000 is way low. But I see the potential value in her, with so little effort. Just minor fixes, and care... That could easily bring me 10k. Given that I find the right buyer.

So what did you buy it for??

At $4000 it may struggle to find a willing buyer as it now

 

4 hours ago, darkfader said:

Thanks, John... I am considering restoration... But definitely less than the 100k option. If I sell, where should I start, do you think there is a market for this vehicle?

If so, what do you think she is worth, roughly judging from the pictures?

A 4 door un poplar brand of car with a very limited market. Very easy to spend 2 or 3 times more than the car could sell for. Who wants a flat head 6 now days? 

Now if was a 2 door Ford or Chevy on the same age the price as is and price after some work would be different 

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, darkfader said:

She is blue... But somebody in 1960, or so decided to brush on the off-white color. It is so faded that the white is practically flakinf off into a powder, almost like a primer effect. 

 

I bet it is 'Flax'; K-F's term for their shade of cream.

 

Craig

[Guest darkfader]

10 hours ago, nick8086 said:

Look at the tags..

Hey... What does the units measurement represent?

[keiser31]

18 minutes ago, darkfader said:

Hey... What does the units measurement represent?

I believe that represents how many were built.

[kfcarguy]

Darkfader,

 

Post your questions and pics on the Frazer Forum in  kfclub.com

 

That is the website for the KAISER FRAZER OWNERS CLUB INTERNATIONAL

 

You do not need to be a member of the Club to post, but will need to register for the Forum.

 

Most that visit the site are very knowledgeable about most issues.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Many antique cars are affordable--and that makes an enjoyable hobby!

For example, here is a fully restored 1950 Frazer sedan from

Craig's List.  The asking price is $16,500 (formerly $18,000)

for a reportedly award-winning car in the Pittsburgh, Penna. area:

 

" 1950 Frazer 4 door Sedan
Trophy winning show car
Very nice example of a rare antique automobile. One out of four remaining in the Kaiser / Frazer Registry.
226 Cubic Inch Engine
Very clean car including the undercarriage.
Manual Transmission
$16,500.00 or best offer.  (412) 266-4673"

 

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/cto/5697738072.html

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

16 hours ago, darkfader said:

...Just minor fixes, and care... That could easily bring me 10k....

 

Mike, considering that a near-perfect car can be had for $16,500 or less,

the $4000 price-guide value of your car (once it's running well) may be accurate.

 

Minor work won't bring your car's value to $10,000--but don't be dismayed!

Fixing up a car is enjoyable and truly satisfying.  However, it's not a

money-making proposition, unless you do most of the work yourself

and don't count all the time you've put into it.

 

"Reality" TV shows give a completely inaccurate view of the work to restore a car.

And please don't think anyone can take short-cuts on fixing up a car to save money.

When work is done on a car, it needn't be to Pebble Beach concourse quality,

but it should be done well.  A $1000 paint job obtained from a "quickie" joint

will likely HURT the value of your car, because a buyer will scrutinize it carefully

and will want the car to be as nice as possible.

 

The important lesson for a newcomer:  Think much less of "profit" than you do of

"hobby" and "enjoyment" and "country drives with the family."

Then you're all set to go for decades of fun.

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest darkfader]

Yeah... I don't watch any reality tv.

Any restoration comments from myself comes from knowledge handed down to me from my father, and the tools+time necessary.  The pictures dont do her justice, but i feel she has serious potential, and not much $ invested to jack the price up to roughly $8,000-$10,000 easily.

 

[60FlatTop]

Here is a book to read: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Truck-A-Love-Story-P-S-Perry-Michael-Paperback-/272342694430?hash=item3f68e3ba1e:g:V7oAAOSwxp9W6Z5C

 

Honestly, your chances of making money with the car are higher if you start a journal and, hopefully, turn it into a book.

 

The car isn't popular and doesn't attract big spenders, they never have. It comes under a heading of Orphan Car, and, like unwanted children, they tend to be aloof and under appreciated even on the few good points. The Virginian pictured is way out there compared to the standard sedan. If you see one it just happens to be on the same planet.

 

You are at step 1 and to quote " not much $ invested to jack the price up to roughly $8,000-$10,000 easily." you'll make more money with a part time job pumping gas. But start the journal, today.

Bernie

[Guest darkfader]

All speculations from me our strictly potential. .. I am not selling the vehicle as is.

 

I am not sure how many times i need to elaborate on that. But judging from your approach, i should write a journal about the journal, and then bring it here for people to speculate why its not a journal, right?

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

first thing

Get the brakes in good shape.

Timing, carburetor  fuel pump, and charging system in good running order

A shop manual will be a HUGE help to you.

 

Then you'll enjoy it more or if you still want to sell. it should be an easier sell it good running order

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

I do not put to much faith in the price guides.

If you enjoy the car and enjoy the work then have fun. The thumbs ups, that's cool, and what is it is all part of ownership benefits.

DO NOT DO IT AS AN INVESTMENT but may be a savings account with very little or no return.

Yes, I have lost some money, but not as much as going to the movies or bar.

[cahartley]

23 hours ago, 1939_Buick said:

Who wants a flat head 6 now days? 

Now if was a 2 door Ford or Chevy on the same age the price as is and price after some work would be different 

 

Who wants a flathead anything? Anyone who wants a smooth running engine.

Who want a 4 door? Anyone who loves to take friends along for rides without them having to do calisthenics getting in and out of the car.

[poci1957]

11 hours ago, 28 Chrysler said:

I do not put to much faith in the price guides.

If you enjoy the car and enjoy the work then have fun. The thumbs ups, that's cool, and what is it is all part of ownership benefits.

DO NOT DO IT AS AN INVESTMENT but may be a savings account with very little or no return.

Yes, I have lost some money, but not as much as going to the movies or bar.

 

Hi Darkfader, looks like you found some of the journal comments and such puzzling and off point and I understand.  I like 28Chryslers points above and just to expand on that a little I think the question of what to do depends on your own motivation.  I would say:

 

IF YOU like old cars and specifically this old car and would like to keep it yourself then take the advice to buy a Kaiser shop manual and get it running well and safe to drive.  Inspect and replace hoses, brakes, and normal tune up parts as required and drive it and take it to shows.   You can enjoy learning more about Kaiser-Frasier (an interesting story) and explaining it to onlookers who are unfamiliar (which will be almost everyone).  You will be at the car show with something unusual and that can be fun. 

 

BUT IF YOU are really more interested in reselling the car to make a quick profit then that is OK too as long as you plan accordingly.  And what the others have been trying to say is for a quick resale moneymaker a Kaiser/Frazier is not that car.  At your request someone said it is probably worth $4000 or so and I think that is about right or even a little high.  You responded that you thought with a little money and "the right person" you can get $8000-$10,000.  Not possible with this car IMO, the experienced Kaiser guy won't pay it, the amateur has better options for that kind of money, and the "right person" who will fall in love and pay top dollar is a myth we all long for and never find.  It is old and interesting but not that valuable.  If you just bought it to "flip" you should put as little money in as possible and get out for whatever you can.  OR if there is a happy medium where you might like to keep and drive it for a while then sell it later if you get some interest then that is a great compromise, just "know your limitations" as someone once said and the limitation is there are not that many lovers of Kaiser/Frazier sedans hot to spend top dollar, good luck, Todd C        

[CarlLaFong]

FYI and BTW, it is not a Kaiser-Frazier. It is a Frazier. Just like there are no Rolls Bentleys or Cadillac LaSalles. Though built by Kaiser, they were a make of their own

[Guest darkfader]

So, it's a 1949 Frazer?

Any sub title, Manhattan?

 

[poci1957]

Someone else will have to confirm, it appears they were either Standard or Manhattan and I do not know the difference.  If it is a Manhattan I would think there would be a nameplate somewhere 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, Imperial62 said:

There is NO market for 1947 to 1954 Kaisers and Frazers. This is a general all encompassing statement.   

 

I believe your car is worth about $1000.  Fully restored or nice original 1949 Frazer Manhattans might sell for between $9,000 and $14,000 (maybe) but would require a well sorted and multi photo spread on ebay over several weeks to find the "needle in a haystack" buyer.  You would need to provide over the top documentation of the quality of the restoration and the likely buyer would be a museum or specific collector.

 

Kaiser Frazer collectors are notoriously cheap.  I know many that would not buy this car fully restored for any more than $6000.  Many super rare Kaiser and Frazers go unrestored because KF guys just don't want to spend the money. 

 

There is a surplus of KF's in the marketplace.  I have no idea why. The basic slab sided look of the 1947 to 1950 cars is boring to most but they seem to have survived quite well.  There are parts galore for these cars and a lot of interchange. 

 

Whatever you put into it you will not get your money out of.  To do a high point restoration - which I know you are not going to do but still - would cost $30,000 to $60,000. 

 

Therefore, chip away, go to the KFOCI forum (where there is a forum member from Canada fiddling with a 49 Frazer now).  I am in the process presently of trying to sell my 1962 Triumph TR4 to raise money to buy a 1948 and a 1949 Frazer from a club member, so I like them.  But, I - like you - want to enjoy the hobby with the cars and never would I try to sell for $10,000 after adjusting the carberator or such. Not gonna happen, ever.

Thank you for the reality check. 

 

I will agree, the market for early K-F cars is slim, but it is what it is. 

 

Craig

[Restorer32]

So now we know the OP just came on here figuring someone would offer him a small fortune for his find. He has no intention of restoring the car, just looking for a quick and profitable sale. Just my opinion of course.

[poci1957]

3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

So now we know the OP just came on here figuring someone would offer him a small fortune for his find. He has no intention of restoring the car, just looking for a quick and profitable sale. Just my opinion of course.

 

I also got a sense that this is likely a "flip" waiting to happen AND possibly that he bought in too high thinking that since it is rare it must be a valuable collectors item.  Folks, it isn't as easy as on TV, there are not that many suckers waiting to throw money at you, Todd C   

[nick8086]

Not a big market for the Kaiser cars.. I have this one. It is a car to show off or A museum may buy it..

Edited September 1, 2016 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I always enjoy seeing K-F cars when they show up at car shows. The styling was certainly refreshing for the time when they were produced.  Too bad the market is not stronger for them.

 

Terry

[8E45E]

19 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

So now we know the OP just came on here figuring someone would offer him a small fortune for his find. He has no intention of restoring the car, just looking for a quick and profitable sale. Just my opinion of course.

The best gauge for an unbiased opinion of any kind is for him to list it on Ebay. 

 

That way, the seller will find out what the market for his car really is, and hopefully not think the AACA or KOFI are trying to be a bunch of vultures and trying obtain it for less than what its worth.  

 

Craig