Pre War Division or Group Discussion

[Larry Schramm]

Derek.

 

Let me see if I can share what I know about Divisions and possibly clarify your thoughts, or and some fuel to the fire.   Apparently, we will have to wait until the BOD post their latest minutes to be sure, but apparently the BOD can and has crested divisions without much forethought (my opinion).  For example, in questioning the office, the Pre-War Division was created with no formal Charter (as is required by Chapters) or anything like a Mission Statement.   The concept and purpose was to conduct After-Tours at a slower pace then BDE, but it also became a sounding board for those who wanted "all together parking", and now has lost membership (and in the BCA because some members felt they were not being treated the same as BCA members with more modern cars(read trailer queens, as opposed to driven, unrestored cars). 

 

I have yet to see a Mission Statement for the Performance Division, but I assume one will be forthcoming.  I think much like the PWD, without a Mission Statement, any marginally conceived Division is probably doomed for eventual disbandment.  Right now the 36-38 (Torque Tube) is attempt to include any Straight Eight Cars, somewhat infringing on the PWD concept.  I could not source a mission statement for the 36-28 Group.

 

I think, at Allentown, we will attempt to seek out active members of the PWD as to their thoughts going forward, and so far we have not seen much interest in conducting a three day After Tour for the PWD.

 

Once Allentown is over, I intent to petition the installed BOD to make sure each and ever Division has a Mission Statement, which is well published in the Bugle and Website so members and potential members will know what to expect from these Divisions.

 

Those are my thoughts at this time, and I agree that any enhanced performance, should make the owner eligible.  There are even quite a few Reattas eligible, I would think.  I think of Modified as being subject to their rules for judging, which is a step in the right direction.

 

John 

 

John,

 

Let me restate some sentiment on the pre-war position that I think represents the Pre-War guys. 

 

Parking together IS A BIG DEAL.  It is where owners of similar year vehicles can discuss issues about their vehicles and gain valuable friendships to keep their cars running on both technical issues and securing parts & expertise. 

 

The current BOD by their actions are only concerned about judging.  At Springfield the prewar cars, especially pre 1925 were spread out all over the place and there was a lot of discussion prior to the meet that we wanted to be together.  There was a certain amount of this also true in Portland and I have heard a lot of talk about the parking in South Bend of the same.  Just ignoring the eras of Buick because the importance of the BOD is to put all of the judged cars together.

 

Look back at the attendance figures and from what I have been able to gather there is a significant difference between judged and with non judged meets for attendance.  Non judged have better attendance.  Please correct me if this is wrong as this is what I have heard.

 

You last statement about the prewar members not being treated properly is accurate with the best example that the Buick Club does not have a 100 year centennial medallion to present to vehicles/owners that attend meets.  You can read some of the discussion on the threads in the prewar links.  There are more.

 

I have been told this is because there is limited money for this.  I know that this is not true as I have looked at about 4 years of financial statements for the club.  They are public documents as the club is a non-profit.  If anyone would like to see them, let me know and I can give you the link.

 

A mission statement a group does not make.  Actions are more important than words.  It is the relationships that drive a group, not a bunch of words.  The prewar guys are quite active outside of the Buick Club and are getting more active in other venues & organizations.

 

Some in this discussion say that the members that are leaving the club are just mad because they are not getting their way. Two things, 1. This is not true. We have been asked for reasonable accommodation to our requests.  2. We are consumers.  Remember that a consumer is a person/entity that trades value with another person/entity that is beneficial to each party.  For the Buick Club members mail money for membership with a reasonable expectation that they will receive some value for the money spent.  The "value" is not the same for all members of the club.  For some it is the magazine, others it is the local club, and might be the national meets for others.    If the consumer does not receive the value that they expect from the money spent the will stop buying the product.

 

I know as I teach Marketing at the local university and go into great detail on consumer behavior and the changing business environment.  One of the areas that we go into great depth is consumer demographics and their buying behavior.   Customer satisfaction is a very big deal in business today.  Look at some of the companies that have made a lot of money measuring consumer satisfaction.  J.D.Power, Consumer Reports, and the list goes on....

 

I will state again, if the club would like to see what is considered one of the best if not the best car shows in the country go the two Greenfield Village/ Henry Ford Museum shows.  The Motor Muster is held on Fathers Day weekend which is cars from 1932 - 1977 +- a year and The Old Car Festival held the weekend after Labor Day.  That show is for vehicles older than 1932.

 

These shows are so successful and done so well that they have about 1,000 entrants for each show.  It is so popular that they are now allowing entrance by invitation only.  This kind of success does not happen by accident.  Maybe the BOD might learn a thing if they attended the shows.  For me these are must do shows and I take a vehicle to both shows.  They are PREMIERE EVENTS.

 

Enough of my ramblings.

[Brian_Heil]

First, my congratulations to all the BPG folks!  Good for you and so delighted you are working with the BCA to grow it and your Group.

 

I found the comment above about Mission Statements interesting.  I could swear the PWD has one.  Something about promoting the PWD Vehicles with additional events such as PWD After Tours to promote more PWD Vehicles at National Meets and increase their attendance.  I'll ask Mark Shaw and do some digging.

 

As far as Torque Tube(rs) inviting Straight Eight(ers) to events (or vice versa), why, that's the whole idea.  How nice the invitations are being extended and exchanged.  More opportunities to have fun and meet really nice people.  Just like inviting everyone to park together (sorry but I had to say it, (I have faith we will solve this simple issue soon along with the Centennial Award)).

 

When I chaired the PWD After Tour after South Bend, we had all sorts of Buicks, several that were not Pre War, delighted to have them too.  Even had a couple of folks who's car was not up to touring so they road with others, we made sure to include them so they could see how much fun they might have missed.  Darn if you don't meet some really nice people when you do that. 

 

So, if it turns out the PWD doesn't have a Mission Statement, I propose it be "Have Fun, Make Friends, Enjoy Buicks".  That's my personal BCA Mission.

[dibarlaw]

Thanks you Brian, since I am involved with the 36-38 group also. I could not have said it better myself!

Larry

Edited February 29, 2016 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

I have been an AACA member for a couple of decades. I joined BCA about 2 years ago. I joined the 36-38 Buick Club, A division of BCA, slightly over a year ago. I recently became the 36-38 Buick Club webmaster and the editor of the Torque Tube II, the Newsletter for the 36-38 Buick Club. When I joined the 36-38 Buick Club, I was unaware that the club's board of directors had voted to accept all Straight 8 Buicks. The board made the decision to "accept all Straight 8 Buicks" primarily out of concern about declining membership. When I found out about this decision, I also was a bit confused as I wondered if this was a dilution of the group's core focus and if it was an encroachment on the Pre War Division. When I asked a long time BCA member about this, I was told that the Pre War Division was primarily focused on pre-30's Buicks. Lacking a website, I have no way of personally confirming the accuracy of this information.  

 

While it is not a Mission Statement, I guess the closest thing to a Mission Statement for the 36-38 Buick Club is the first paragraph on the home page of the website:

 

Our division celebrates all Straight 8 Buicks with a special emphasis on the Buick's manufactured in 1936, 1937 and 1938. We are dedicated to preservation and road-ability. We strongly encourage driving these cars. Ask a Buick driver and they will tell you about satisfaction. It is our belief t​hey are superior production vehicles of that era.  

 

While I have been personally primarily interested in 1937 and 1938 Buicks, recent exposure to more information about the other related Straight 8 Buicks has certainly made me appreciate them more. We seem to be headed in the right direction as we are adding new members every month. I hope that the club continues to grow.

 

As a brand new board member, I still have a lot to learn about the Division. My best understanding at this time is that the Division is primarily focused on publishing the magazine 6 times per year, helping members with technical issues, conducting an Annual Tour, and enjoying the fellowship of our fellow Buick owners.  

[Terry Wiegand]

There is something that I have been wanting to ask for quite sometime now.  Down in the lower right hand corner of a posting there is the little 'LIKE' word.  If a person 'likes' what was written you can click on that word and it lets the person who wrote the posting know that such and such named person likes what was written.  I read Mr. Scheib's posting above and I'll be darn if I could find the 'DISLIKE' word anywhere in the corner of his posting.  Larry Schramm has it exactly right on - PARKING ALL TOGETHER IS A BIG DEAL!!  If this will help, I will click 'LIKE' on Larry's posting about a half dozen times for him.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Shaw]

To clarify this discussion, I submit the following document from 5-29-2005 announcing the BCA Pre-War Division:

 

Buick Club of America Pre-War Division

 

            An application to create a BCA Pre-War Division will be submitted to the BCA Board of Directors at the July, 2005 meeting in Batavia.  A proposal for the formation of this division received tentative approval at the February Board meeting in San Diego.  The formal application will be submitted to the Board in July at Batavia. 

            The primary purpose of the new division is to encourage the participation of Pre-World War II Buicks in BCA events and tours.  The secondary purpose of the Pre-War division is to provide a forum within the BCA for owners of pre-war Buicks. 

 

            The division founders are concerned about the lack of participation from cars built prior to WWII.  We suspect this is because most BCA tours are designed for the go-fast cars of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.  We hope to encourage tours designed for older, slower Buicks.  Some chapters are already doing this, but many are not.  We hope that a new division will provide a forum for organizing tours for the older Buicks.   

            The Pre-War Division will be entirely internet based.  We will work within existing chapters to encourage participation by the pre-war Buicks.  We will not hold formal Pre-War Division meetings nor will we publish a hard-copy newsletter.  Without meetings or magazines, we anticipate no need for dues, secretaries or treasurers.  Membership in the Pre-War Division will be free.  Membership in the BCA will be required.  Membership in a local chapter will be strongly encouraged. 

          

P.S.   We currently have 21 “charter members”.  Half of those members joined the BCA in order to join the Pre-War division.   They heard about us on the internet.  That’s our goal.  Get those old Buicks owners in the BCA where they belong.  And get those old Buicks out on the road where they belong. 

Buicks were meant to be driven.      

[MCHinson]

Mark,

 

Thanks but please help me figure this out. The Pre War Division lacks a link on the Buick Club of America Website.

 

When I try to find out something about the Division from the BCA website here is all I get:

 

PRE-WAR DIVISION
(TBD)

 

Based on your explanation it would seem that I should be a member of the Pre War Division as well.  How would I join the Division? What does being a member of the Division mean? Are there regular emailed newsletters or regular email distributions? From a Google search, I can find a little bit of information on a Hemmings site, It looks like there may be a Yahoo Group that could be affiliated with the group. I find a dead in link at http://prewar.buickclub.org/. It seems difficult for a potential new member to learn and/or join the Division. 

[Mark Shaw]

Matt,

Early on, the PWD successfully grew BCA membership by getting more prewar car owners to join the BCA.  The BCA even sent me a couple of BCA Ambassidor badges for recruiting members, and I won the Gerstkemper Award one year.  However, it seems that most of those members did not enter their cars in judged shows and preferred to drive their cars rather than show them for trophies. 

 

We had several well attended AfterTours that departed along with the BDE group on Sunday after the national meets.  And, as Brian Heil mentioned, we usually had a few post-war Buicks join our tours too.  Our webmaster never got too far with our own web page, so there was never a link set up.  I assembled & sent the emailed newsletters monthly, then quarterly, and finally stopped over a year ago due to lack of articles from others in our group.

 

Our repeated requests to park together at national meets so we could socialize share information and park our Buicks by year rather than by formal judging class has been met with political stonewalling for the last several years.  The politics of the BCA took the fun out of it for me.  That is why I am no longer a member of the BCA.

 

I found another document copied below that clearly states the underlined reasons we formed the PWD:

 

To: Buick Club of America (BCA) Board of Directors                 2-3-05

 

From: Mark Shaw

 

Subject: Petition for permission to form a division of the BCA.

 

     I hereby submit my application for approval to form the “Buick Pre-War Enthusiasts” division of BCA in keeping with article VIII of the BCA bylaws.  The purpose of this division shall be to promote the preservation and increase participation of prewar Buick owners in car tours and activities by planning additional BCA events specifically for older slower cars.

     I currently represent seven prewar Buick owners residing in the Vancouver Washington area that do not participate in local BCA club activities with their prewar Buicks.  Some are long time members of the Horseless Carriage Club of America (HCCA) and participate in tours and activities primarily planned for pre-1931 automobiles for local tours and activities; and in national tours for pre-1916 vehicles.

     We believe there are many BCA members and non members who do not participate in BCA events with their prewar cars because most BCA tours are too long and too fast to keep up with older slower cars.  Several prewar Buick owners have already asked to become members if we are successful in forming a Buick Prewar Enthusiasts group.  All agree that BCA needs to recognize the limitations of these older cars and provide tours and events that will enable members to enjoy their prewar cars. 

     Please feel free to contact me with any questions, clarifications, or further requirements to enable us to form this new BCA division.

Thank you,

Mark Shaw

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Matt, what you are reading in the TBD wording means 'To Be Determined'.  This means at the present time the Pre-War Division is absent a director.  I, and all of the other PWD members know the story behind this situation and I will not go into that here and now.  If you would send me your email address and/or phone number in a PM I will be happy to visit with you about the circumstances.  What you read in Larry Schramm's posting is dead on right concerning the Pre-War folks and the way this group of enthusiasts is being treated by the current sitting BCA BOD.  This has to change if this club is going to continue to exist and grow.  By all means, we Pre-War enthusiasts would love to have you in our midst.  I am just not real sure as to what to tell you about getting officially signed up in the PWD for right now.  Hopefully someone can chime in and give you the correct way to go about this.  Brian Heil very nicely put it like it is with our family of enthusiasts - Fun, Friends, and Buicks.  It just doesn't get any better than that.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[NTX5467]

PWD newsletters decreasing in frequency (from the earlier times until later times) as PWD members didn't submit any material for publication?  No comment.

 

Interesting to hear that "All Together Parking" didn't happen, when all indications were that it did?  No further comment.

 

To me, the BCA SHOULD be a group of individuals who come together with the common bond of the Buick marque and products thereof.  Certainly, there can and will be "groups" who like certain model years/types/sizes of Buicks better than others, BUT I feel that we should ALL come together for a common show of support for the total marque as equal "groups" in a synergistic manner.  All governed by a common group of rules and orientations for the effective functioning of the group for the mutual good of all involved.  No "tail wagging the dog", although "the parent dog" might allow it somewhat, tolerate it, and might even make amends for it . . . in an orientation of "continuous improvement".

 

Perhaps the word "Division" should be changed to "Group"??  "Division" = "divided"; "divisive" . . . from other sections of the whole.

 

Whether at the organization's management level, the chapter level, the "Division" level . . . "Continuous Improvement" should be an on-going event.  A "fine-tuning" of what it takes to keep things working efficiently and effectively in the short and longer-terms.  Such "continuous improvement" should be monitored to see what works and what is more marginal in nature . . . in a continuous manner.

 

As we all age, some things cease to be quite as important as they used to be . . . from our OWN perceptions.  Other things tend to become much more important.  Key thing is to NOT become so obsessed that we might lose sight of the things we used to love to do and the person we used to be.  Some of these changes might be fueled by things we might not desire to admit to, but also things in our lives which "are a changin'" that we might not have as complete control over as we used to OR would like to.  And, the membership numbers of the BCA (and other similar entities) can be negatively impacted as a side issue.

 

Remember, too, that it's much better for our physical beings to be happy rather than brooding, disgruntled, or similarly dissatisfied with "things".  Even in the darkest times, there are things we can be thankful for . .  including past enjoyments and involvements which "made us smile".  It takes fewer muscles to smile than to do the opposite.  With bodily energy being a somewhat finite resource, no need to waste it!

 

SMILE AND ENJOY YOUR BUICKS!  Be glad that they bring you (and others) joy!

 

NTX5467

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 Willis, great post. A  LOT  nicer than mine was going to be. 

  

  As to parking, perhaps I am in a minority, but have never been told just where to park or where not to park. Except for judging day.

 

   At Ames, upon asking [ this was my first National] I was told  "any where until Sat morning" .  From then on I did just that and was never challenged. 

 

  My heart felt WELCOME to the new group.

 

  Ben

[jscheib]

Mark,

 

Thanks but please help me figure this out. The Pre War Division lacks a link on the Buick Club of America Website.

 

When I try to find out something about the Division from the BCA website here is all I get:

 

PRE-WAR DIVISION

(TBD)

 

Based on your explanation it would seem that I should be a member of the Pre War Division as well.  How would I join the Division? What does being a member of the Division mean? Are there regular emailed newsletters or regular email distributions? From a Google search, I can find a little bit of information on a Hemmings site, It looks like there may be a Yahoo Group that could be affiliated with the group. I find a dead in link at http://prewar.buickclub.org/. It seems difficult for a potential new member to learn and/or join the Division. 

 

Matt,

 

You can be of considerable help in Allentown.  We have a meeting scheduled for Thursday 2-4 PM at which time we will be discussing the future of the PWD, or Group, as has been suggested and develop a formal Mission Statement, or alternative term.  New officers need to be elected.  As Larry Di Barry and I are close to Allentown, we are developing an After-Tour that will take place if we have enough interest. With you and Larry, with your position in the 36-38 Group and as a forum Administrator, you can be of considerable help going forward.  Lacking any volunteer, Larry and I have offered to co-chair this meeting.

 

Ben,

 

I just wanted to mention that open parking early in the week means the cars would not be parked by era until Saturday because anyone can park anywhere.  Then the Meet committees have apparently not allowed parking of registered, but none judged cars, such as Driver Award to be with judged cars on show day.

 

John

[MCHinson]

Recently there has been a somewhat wide ranging discussion about BCA Divisions, especially the Pre War Division, that arose from the discussion about a new Division being formed. In the interest of a more indepth discussion of the Pre War Division,  I have moved the posts from the original discussion to a new discussion here.

[jscheib]

Thanks,

 

My apology for helping to hijack the Performance Group thread, but part of the problem is there seems little on the official BCA forum or web site to easily define the Formal Divisions, and there needs to be, in my opinion.  First, there should a separate category for Division each with a brief one paragraph definition (Mission Statement or whatever we call it), then drop down rather than being in "Local Groups".

 

John

[Brian_Heil]

Thank you Mr. Moderator, well done in moving this all here, and again my apologies for dilluting the BPG thread.

 

So, yes, the PWD is still out there and we do have a PWD After Tour planned for the Allentown National Meet (all are welcome).  There is a thread in the BCA PWD Forum on the 2016 PWD After Tour that contains more info.. Yes, I guess you could say it is the one visible thing the PWD does annually, but we actually get together daily, via that site and discuss all sorts of good things, just like the folks do here on the General site. 

 

I personally think that is why the PWD Newsletter has ceased.  Its 'old news' if you read the PWD Forum, and since the PWD was established as a no frills, no dues, web based communication, BCA Division, most all its members read the PWD Forum daily and the others know where to go to 'catch up'..

[Mark Shaw]

Exactly Brian! 

 

"Its 'old news' if you read the PWD Forum, and since the PWD was established as a no frills, no dues, web based communication, BCA Division, most all its members read the PWD Forum daily and the others know where to go to 'catch up'.."

 

"That is why the PWD Newsletter has ceased."

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

I can probably agree with a lot of your last post but will make a few contrary comments...

 

The Straight 8 Era is 1931 to 1953. The 36-38 Buick Club currently has over 200 members, so it is certainly not merging into a group that you describe with the terms "I don't consider the PWD active". The 36-38 Buick Club produces a color magazine 6 times a year, as well as produces an annual tour. It certainly has to have dues to produce the magazine. It has a website. It is not going to merge into an inactive organization.

 

I would have preferred if the board of directors had stuck to 36-38 Buicks and did some better marketing but I don't see that decision changing in the future. At the time, the club's membership was not growing, but that has since changed. I don't think that the expansion to all Straight 8 years is the primary reason for the club's growth. The club's website was out of date and the club was not actively doing much in the way of recruitment. I am happy to say that the website and marketing are in better shape and the membership numbers are growing.

 

I am at a bit of a disadvantage as a relatively new member of BCA. I have never been to a BCA event. I was going to go to this year's 36-38 Club tour but it is the same time as my daughter's high school graduation so that is not happening. I am seriously trying to figure out how to go to Allentown. Hopefully that will work out. I don't really want to drive my 1937 all the way to Allentown, but if I go, I do really want that to be the car that I take. I may need to borrow, buy, or rent a tow vehcle and a trailer. I decided a few years ago that I was more interested in driving old cars than trailering them, so I sold my tow vehicle and my trailer. If I was smart, I would probably just drive the 1984 Riviera or the 1989 Park Avenue to Allentown.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mr. Imperial62, unless you have a dog in the fight, why do you come on here and stir up crap?  I cleaned that up a lot!  Matt Hinson says he agrees with a lot of your last post - I DON'T!  #1  You obviously do not read all of the posts carefully.  #2  The Straight 8 models started in 1931.  If you are going to espouse things on here, at least get your facts correct.  #3  You do not consider the Pre-War people as active.  Again, you need to get your facts straight before putting them down in writing.  #4  You say the BCA is not blocking all together parking at the national meets.  OK Mr. Imperial, if the BCA is not blocking parking in this type of show field arrangement, then get back on here and tell us all who is doing that very thing.  I, and a lot of other folks on here really want to hear your answer to that question.  I am smart enough to know that this discussion and the direction it is heading can and will get myself in a lot of trouble with the moderator and possibly others.  So, I will leave it at that.  However, I will pass on something that I heard as a kid about 700 billion gazillion times.  This came directly from my father whom I consider a very tolerant and knowledgeable person and it was always aimed directly at me.  It goes like this - "Ignorance can be corrected through education, but stupidity is lifelong"  There are a lot of people going through life that fall into either of those category's I am sad to say.  We are all waiting for your answer to the question that I have asked.  Do not disappoint us with a bogus, made-up answer.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Dandy Dave]

In the best interest of the BCA I would say it would be best you do not disband the PWD. I have been part of the group since 2006 and have met and had a great time with the members and also touring with them when I can. I'm a member of the BCA, and do look at the BCA General Discussion as well as the AACA General Discussion Website as well. I guess that makes me an odd ball.  Bar anything tragic, I'll be at Allentown as I'm all signed up. Looking forward to a Tour with our Early Cars. These tours will not be the same without Mark and Rinda Shaw along. They are wonderful folks that I am glad to call my Friends. To the BCA, You lost them as members? Shame on you. Also, us folks with early cars park together no matter what day it is so get use to it. If we don't want our car judged we jut put a sign on it not to be judged or tell the Judges not to Judge it. Problem Solved. Nuff Said. Dandy Dave!   

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 Terry, I will say one more thing and then I am OUT. At the Springfield meet, the class [years] my car falls in were all parked together. In fact, I was parked next to a BEAUTIFUL restored Roadmaster Convertible.  Another 400 point car on the other side. If I , as a driven entrant, was not supposed to be there, no one said so. 

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

I'll admit that I don't have a dog in the PWD "hunt", so some might desire to go to another post by someone else.  Be that as it may.

 

It's great that PWD members know to come to the BCA PW forum.  What about other PW Buick owners who don't know where to find y'all?  Know where that conceptual "coffee shop booth" might be? 

 

It might be great to use that forum to replace a newsletter, with no dues, etc.  Some car groups want to be "no rules", with the first rule being "no rules".  Only thing is that with such free-form membership, the commitment of the individual members can be variable.  A group with no active members-of-record can possibly result.  The BCA has guidelines for inactive chapters.  Possibly similar for divisions?

 

For the PWD, if its leadership is happy with how things are going,  If the BCA is happy with the how things are going.  If the PWD members are happy with the way things are going.  So be it.

 

In general, the key to vehicle club/group longevity is marketing.  Perhaps something as simple as a "Own a Pre-War Buick?  Meet like-minded owners and enthusiasts on the Buick Pre-War Forum ​coffee shop (with the appropriate web address listed)" in Hemmings or "The Bugle"?  BUT be prepared to answer question about activities, meetings, and newsletters as some of those things tend to be how others judge potential groups to see if they want to be in that group. 

 

Enjoy your Buicks!

NTX5467

Edited March 2, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

Speaking as a member of this forum, not as a member of the BOD, I can understand the position that the prewar class was spread out at Springfield. 

 

The archival (unrestored) cars were separated from the 400 point, display, and the drivers class. The archival class was along one border of the field, and the rest of the prewar cars were in the separated first two rows of the parking lot.  I do not know how many cars were in the archival class but I do know the class extended the entire width of the border.    Looking at the pictures I snapped that Saturday I observed that there were 5 prewar cars  in the Archival class. 

 

The rest of the field did have the other three classes parked intertwined, but  the modified class was parked on the opposite border of the field from the Archival cars, essentially behind the hotel.

 

 In Portland the archival cars were also parked along one border of the field. The class was so large it had to be split into two classes.

 

And I can also understand the desire to break out the archival cars.  Consider that in Portland there were only two teams of Archival Judges, each team consisting of two people.  I do not know what the archival Judging team was in Springfield, but considering the number of cars that were in the archival class, it is fair to say the team had a lot of work to do to properly judge all those cars.  It would be absolutely unfair to expect the Archival judges to walk the entire field to find their assignments. 

 

By way of comparison, in Springfield I was assigned to the team that did the 66-72 GS class.  We had 4 people on our team, and 13 cars, all parked in one place.  A 14th car was added.  We started judging at 9 AM and did not finish our assignment till nearly noon.  By then many cars had already left the show field.  I do not know how long it took the archival judges to finish their task but archival class covers every year of manufacture.  If Archival cars were initially parked within the other classes it would be a monumental task just to find them, let alone finish their task and enjoy the show..

 

I can see two solutions to this dilemma. #1)  I forget who said it but; if you bring a car to be judged, you should participate as a judge. More judging teams would make the job easier for all.  #2) why not just offer the attendee the opportunity to move their car, if they want to, after it is judged?  

 

The thing everyone needs to consider is that the Judges all volunteer their time during the Big Show.  And many of them still want to see the rest of the cars.  It is unfair when people to remove their cars before the end of the show.  The judges traveled as far across country as everyone else just to see Beautiful Buicks and meet their owners.  To have a car judged and then pulled off the field before the end hour is just unfair. 

 

In addition it is also unfair to be a Monday Morning quarterback regarding how a show field is laid out.  The folks running the show have to do the best they can with what they have.  There were quite a few empty spaces in the prewar class with no vehicle.  Were cars expected that did not show?  Until the day of the event, how is anyone expected to know this?  Given the size/shape and preregistration numbers, many of which do not happen till the last minute, the show field team does what it can and I , for one, appreciate just how difficult a task that may be.

 

Still, there should be some room for flexibility on the parking arrangements. When people want to move their car after it’s been judged, let’s let them do it.  It hurts no one.

[MCHinson]

Terry,

 

I sent you my email address by PM as you requested earlier. I am still waiting for your email.

 

I know that you are quite passionate about these issues. I can admire that but it sometimes makes you quick to complain and argue without giving credit where credit is due. As I stated previously, I can agree with some of Imperial62's post, but certainly not all of it. 

 

I think that it is clear that, while there are certainly active and involved folks in the Pre War Division, there are issues. I have a Pre War Division eligible car and have had it for over a year. I have posted in the Pre War Buicks Discussion Forum many times in that period. I have not joined the Pre War Division and nobody asked me to join or expressed the thought that I should be a member. In fact, when I asked one member of the Pre War Division if I should join, it was suggested that the Division was probably going to fold and that it really was more for pre-30's cars, so I should not worry about it.

 

I would suggest that the Division should at a minimum have its own website. That could be done for a very small expense. To exist and grow, the Division has to have some method of communication to its members and a way for people to find out about the organization. A website is one way to do that.

 

I also agree that a newsletter, even if it is just and email based newsletter, is of vital importance to the health of any club.  I personally prefer a printed newsletter, but they are costly. To have a group with no dues is almost unheard of at this time. To keep that, obviously the members will have to do their own printing of an emailed newsletter if there is going to be a newsletter. 

 

I would certainly be interested in knowing more about the Division and see no reason that I would not be interested in joining. I would think that I would be potentially willing to help, but I do already have a pretty full plate with my AACA duties and my editor and webmaster roles for the 36-38 Buick Club.  

[50jetback]

Being an international member of the BCA and Pre War Division ( I think - I used to get the newsletter ) I don't feel it is my place to become involved in discussion re parking/judging at National Meets. Our Australian National Meets are quiet different and apart from an afternoon " show and Shine " we don't have judging. The National Meet is a driving event with participation by many pre war cars. 

 

I would like to say how important this Pre War Forum is to the likes of myself, particularly if you are a restorer and live overseas- plenty of help and advice here from very knowledgeable people.

 

I would also refer you to the benefits of electronic magazines and have attached a copy of the latest Australian Pre War E Magazine. The E magazine is  generously prepared at no cost by some dedicated Queensland members. It's produced about every 2 months and content is supplied to a large degree by readers.

 

V4 E2.pdf

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Matt:

Thank you for all you do for us with the Torque Tube II. The latest issue was great reading. I also took the opportunity to visit the updated Website. Much nicer. There is a reason why there is a II because Torque Tube I folded. When I joined the BCA in 1987 if was out of necessity so I could belong to the 37-38 group. Great, an era specific group! I could not have gotten my 37 on the road without it. Historically though, the 37-38 cars were one of the most popular era of Buicks to collect at the time. I believe we had well over 300 members. Not so now and that is why it was opened up. I do find the forum is the place to be to keep in touch with my other Buick Buddies. I also feel at times I have fallen into a trap and can only type my way out by making comments and observations. Wonderful thing this technology. I feel guilty each time. I have promised articles to our Mason-Dixon newsletter, to Pete Philips for the Bugle, to you for the Torque Tube II and to Dean Tryon for the 1915-1918 newsletters. So I have used up all my creativity if any. I must go out to the garage tomorrow and do some work so I can drive my cars.

[dibarlaw]

Stuart:

Thanks for your input. The E-Magazine if fabulous !!

Thanks for posting it.

[Dandy Dave]

The conception that the PWD is for cars built before 1930 is a misconception. Who ever told you that is wrong. Some of the tours I have been on have had as many as 17 cars, and the majority of those cars are 1930 to 1941 cars. I'm a minority with my 1915 Buick. They like the oldest car to lead so I sometimes get to set the pace. I'm sure there are cars behind me that would like to go faster but my take, If your on Tour you should slow down and look around and enjoy the scenery. Dandy Dave! 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  Stuart, Thank You!! The story of the '28 is marvelous. Makes me want to come see it!

 

  Ben

[Mark Shaw]

Imperial62....

  You said"I believe it (the PWD) should have had a high quality newsletter." 

I produced the PWD newsletter for several years before it became more of a personal blog due to lack of input from other members.  That is why I stopped the newsletter in favor of this forum.  This is where others share information and contribute photos, articles, links, etc. that were often part of the PWD newsletters that I produced.

 

You said that "I believe the after tour was the focus" and "drop the all together parking issue because the tour is the focus". 

As Terry previously indicated, perhaps you did not read the documents I posted that clearly stated the purpose of the PWD.  The PWD under my leadership strived to bring together members with prewar cars to share information, services, techniques, promoted fellowship at national meets & provided AfterTours that allowed members to drive their cars to several points of interest at normal prewar driving speeds.  Parking only within judging categories for the entire meet does not permit members to compare their cars side-by side if they are not all in the same judging categories.  And, as I have pointed out many times before, part of article 1 of the BCA bylaws states that the purpose of the club is "to promote social intercourse and to promote fellowship among its members".  Segregated parking for the entire meet does not accomplish this.  Judging category parking is not needed until judging day.  The various divisions and sub-groups should be allowed (if not encouraged) to park together until just before judging day.

 

You said: "the BCA is not blocking all together parking. They're not". They allow it for 4 days or so then ask that only 400 point judged cars be on the show field."

Please show me where the BOD made this change official.

[Brian_Heil]

For the record, I didn't suggest nor do I that any Group should disband.  I'm all for growing all Groups under the BCA umbrella. 

 

BPG being formed, dandy.  Heck, I designed a big part of that GNX Turbo engine that's part of that Group along with the Supercharged 3800 and the 3800 and I'm proud to have done so as are the dozens of great people who did so with me who are on this site.  The fact that there is a Group focused on that is pretty darn cool, I for one plan to check in on them.  I also happen to like older Buicks too.

 

Torque Tubers going strong, fantastic.

 

I know there's a huge 1929 Group.  I tip my hat to Bill McLaughlin and all the work he does there as well as to Dean Tryon and his Teens Group.

 

I know for a fact the PWD has helped many people and it has certainly grown the BCA and most importanly made connections between PWD Buick owners.  I guess we're a bit of a loose Group to some, but that was by design, by our roots.  No dues, no frills, web based.  That's us. 

 

Hard copy news letter?  Maybe its just me, but I lose stuff and have had a couple of hard drives crash too.  Lucky for me and the PWD Group, all that good stuff is out on the web safe and sound, and but a click away.  Better yet, it is searchable.  That's huge.  Pick a topic and hit search and you will have multiple articles to keep you busy for hours of reading.  Personally, I have a couple people a month who do that, most are new to the hobby and they send me an email or call referencing the PWD Forum article about something.

 

Just last night the phone rang.  Wife:  Its for you, some old car guy.  Me:  Yap yap yap for 30 minutes.  Wife:  Did you help him?  Me:  I think so, sure was a nice guy. 

 

One final comment.  The PWD Group has Master Machinists, Career GM Field Technical Assistance Engineers, Career GM Design Engineers, Master Mechanics, Technical Education Educators along with a bunch of other really nice folks from all sorts of backgrounds and they all help.  Man, that's powerful.  They can be a feisty bunch too when someone says 'you can't do this or that'.  I like that sort of problem solving philosophy.

 

Have Fun  Make Friends  Enjoy Buicks!

Edited March 3, 2016 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Hear! Hear! Brian Heil. Dandy Dave!

[MCHinson]

I understand that the Pre War Division has a lot of great guys with lots of knowledge in it. I understand that they are passionate about the cars and their shared hobby and friendships. I am a little bit confused about trying to understand exactly what the organization actually is though.

 

A Division of BCA under the BCA Bylaws is an entiy that is chartered by BCA with particular requirements including that all member of of a Division have to be members of BCA. Some of what I am reading here makes it sound like being a member of the Pre War Division of BCA is simply being a participant in the Pre War Buick Forum. I participate in the Pre War Forum but don't think I am a member of the Pre War Division. I never "joined" that Division.

 

Brian, I don't quite understand what you mean by your statement,  "Lucky for me and the Group, all that good stuff is out on the web safe and sound, and but a click away.  Better yet, it is searchable." I can't find where the Pre War Division of BCA has a website. If you are just talking about the content on the Pre War Buick Forum, I agree it is a great thing, but that content does not belong to or comprise any BCA Division.  Is there some other site that I am missing, or has the Pre War Division simply become an informal group of friends that post on the Pre War Buick Forum and also organize a tour after every BCA Meet?

[Mark Shaw]

Mat,

     BCA membership is the only requirement to become a member of the division and Dave Ebert Sr. is still the membership chairman.  All you need to do is send Dave your name, email address and BCA number to become a member even if you don't have a prewar Buick.

 

Due primarily to the rarity of prewar BCA members, it simply is not possible to have physical meetings except for once each year during a national meet.  AfterTours and annual meetings have been organized behind the scenes via email by the officers and regional directors of the PreWar Division who try to recruit members familiar with touring areas near national meet locations to lead the AfterTours.

 

The newsletter used to be emailed to all members until I finally decided to use this forum for all communications.  Since then I allowed my BCA membership to lapse and others are working on another annual meeting where they hope to find another director to run the organization. 

 

Since you have shown so much interest; perhaps you would be interested in resurrecting newsletter for the PWD?  If you like, I will send you some samples of the original newsletters.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Matt,

 

Good questions and Mark has answered most and you answered the other.  The PW tab next to this site is highly searchable and I assume all saved and protected in a large cloud floating over Hershey, PA.  As a Moderator, maybe you could ask the AACA that one about the cloud.

 

I would see no value in recreating the PW site as a PWD site, but let's put in some links, see my comment in a second.

 

Joining the BCA gets you a roster of owners by years so no need to repeat that either within the PWD.

 

What I'd really like to see is on the BCA website under PWD, remove the T.B.D. and put a link to the PW Forum.  Same thing under the Links tab on the BCA website.  That's free and easy and very helpful to newbees.  And we can put a PWD intro/info pinned to the top.  Maybe you can do that?  I have no idea how that works.

[Brian_Heil]

Also, I have no idea how any of us police the BCA Membership issue.  Pretty sure the After Tour requires it for insurance so maybe we indirectly police it better than other Groups by having the After Tours or giving people a better reason to attend a National Meet which also requires it.

 

Think of it these two ways:

 

"Sorry, I'm not going to talk to you until you join the BCA, but I know how to help you, I'm just not going to, we police this sort of thing."

 

or

 

I'd much rather it be, "Those BCA/PWD/BPG...(etc.) folks are really a bunch of great people and really helped me, I want to be a part of that, they keep suggesting I join the BCA, I'm going to do that."  And when they get the excellent Bugle that Pete puts out, we start to grow them for a long term relationship, and next thing you know, they start posting what they found or solved or learned and the BCA grows, relationships are formed, they start to see how good it feels to help someone.

 

I could make a joke and talk about our PWD Klub House.  Maybe Mark or someone has a picture of it.

[Bill Stoneberg]

What I'd really like to see is on the BCA website under PWD, remove the T.B.D. and put a link to the PW Forum.  Same thing under the Links tab on the BCA website.  That's free and easy and very helpful to newbees.  And we can put a PWD intro/info pinned to the top.  Maybe you can do that?  I have no idea how that works.

 

I have asked for this to be done, but somebody needs to write the info.  If you start a thread called Intro to PWD (or whatever), it  can pined it to the top of the forum.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Good idea Bill!  

This is a simplified announcement for the PWD from 2005.  Perhaps Peter Garepy can make it a sticky at the top of the Prewar forum.

 

Buick Club of America Pre-War Division

 

            An application to create a BCA Pre-War Division was submitted to the BCA Board of Directors and approved at the July 2005 meeting in Batavia.  The primary purpose of the new division is to encourage the participation of Pre-World War II Buicks in BCA events and tours.  The secondary purpose is to provide a forum within the BCA for owners of pre-war Buicks. 

            The division founders were concerned about the lack of participation from cars built prior to WWII.  We suspect this is because most BCA tours are designed for the go-fast cars of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.  We hope to encourage tours designed for older, slower Buicks.  Some chapters are already doing this, but many are not.  We hope that a new division will provide a forum for organizing tours and events designed for older Buicks.  

            The Pre-War Division will be entirely Internet based.  We will work within existing chapters to encourage participation for owners of pre-war Buicks.  We will not hold formal Pre-War Division meetings nor will we publish a hard-copy newsletter.  Without meetings or magazines, we anticipate no need for dues, secretaries or treasurers.  Membership in the Pre-War Division will be free.  Membership in the BCA is the only requirement, and membership in a local chapter is strongly encouraged. If you want to join, just e-mail the PWD Membership Chairman Dave Ebert dle38@comcast.net with your email and physical address along with your BCA number and a listing of your prewar car(s). 

 

You can’t beat the price; It's Free for BCA members!

Edited March 3, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[MrEarl]

So done Mark, and please let me know if there are any changes/edits needed

[Bill Stoneberg]

What I'd really like to see is on the BCA website under PWD, remove the T.B.D. and put a link to the PW Forum.  Same thing under the Links tab on the BCA website

 

Thanks to Peter, this has been done....

 

 

[Cindy Livingston]

If we get the information fast, Pete and I can make an revision to the April mail wrap where PWD is listed. Instead of TBD, what is the preferred verbiage?