Sad ending for Hispano-Suiza J12

[demco32]

On 9/6/2024 at 2:10 AM, wayne sheldon said:

I know, "Grand Scheme of things - - -" yadda yadda yadda. It is "just a car", "one of hundreds of millions" and all that.

But this kind of thing makes me really sad. I know it is part of life. There is a risk in no matter what one does. However, ALL cars regardless of stature, especially the high end customs of any era, were touched by the hearts and hands of so many people that designed them, built them, owned them, admired them, and every stage of that car's existence. Especially the high end customs of any era, and especially the great Classic era, that represent the hopes and dreams of millions of people!

I have always had an admiration and fondness for the great European Classics of the prewar Classic era. Hispano-Suiza as much as any epitomizes those really special cars of that difficult era.

This H-S was shown at Pebble Beach to great acclaim. Which means it has been thoroughly restored inside and out. Which in turn means that most of what we see is no longer original. Still, it then also represented a tremendous effort to bring the car back from whatever the condition of abuse and neglect it had suffered over ninety years.

The photos do not tell much, but it appears to not have been too severe of a fire (but almost!). I have restored numerous parts of cars from after serious fires. And I have seen or heard of a few very valuable cars restored after devastating fires (including a Stutz that the aluminum crankcase and transmission case wound up a molten puddle on the floor!). It can be restored again.

 

 

I would not expect anything nefarious. However, my varied backgrounds always make me want to know "what caused this?" I fully and loudly admit it, and proclaim that I am a "rubber necker" at accident sites. I want to see what happened. I want to understand who did what to bring this tragedy out. "Understanding can lead to prevention" (you can quote me on that). (Although I would expect someone before me said basically the same thing?)

 

I don't have an enclosed trailer. I don't always disconnect batteries when trailering a car. Although I do often disconnect batteries on cars when untended for very long. 

 

I do hope in a very few years to read of this car's return to the show circuit.

 

Transport on an open trailer is much more dangerous than in a closed trailer.

The photos obviously do not show the cause of the fire, but there are things that can reduce the risk of fire.

I always disconnect the battery because once a fire occurs due to a short circuit, it cannot be extinguished as long as there is voltage on the wiring.

I let the engine cool down thoroughly before we set off.

We have an extinguishing system in the trailer, just like there is one on a boat near the engine or in a rally car.

With a camera we can constantly see the inside of the trailer while we are on the road.

Ensure good ventilation in the trailer.

Another point that is often overlooked are the trailer tires.

Replace the tires in time and keep them at the correct pressure and maintain the brakes as required.

 

[demco32]

19 hours ago, edinmass said:

Problem with the burned car is its value after it being restored again is probably half of its pre fire estimate. I did a quick value check………as I don’t follow V-12 HS cars and it’s lower than I expected. It’s quite possible this car will never be rebuilt. Another masterpiece lost to history.

when the metal has been that hot it will always be a permanent problem.

[Anton van Luijk]

Two more pictures I found on FB

[wayne sheldon]

2 hours ago, demco32 said:

I always disconnect the battery because once a fire occurs due to a short circuit, it cannot be extinguished as long as there is voltage on the wiring.

I let the engine cool down thoroughly before we set off.

We have an extinguishing system in the trailer, just like there is one on a boat near the engine or in a rally car.

With a camera we can constantly see the inside of the trailer while we are on the road.

Ensure good ventilation in the trailer.

Another point that is often overlooked are the trailer tires.

Replace the tires in time and keep them at the correct pressure and maintain the brakes as required.

 

 

All excellent points and good suggestions!

Like so many things, making the effort to learn and understand the right way to work with anything seriously potentially dangerous, and then taking the few extra minutes to make certain things are secure and protected as well as in proper running condition (tires for instance) could prevent most such tragedies.

Like anything in life, no matter how careful one is, accidents can and do sometimes happen. However, most of them have always been avoidable - - - if only?

[TAKerry]

4 hours ago, demco32 said:

when the metal has been that hot it will always be a permanent problem.

Not to mention how corrosive the fire fighting solution is. My car that burnt was completely rust free and solid. 6 months after the fire the sheet metal was completely eaten through in many spots. Looked like it had been parked out in the woods for 50 years.

 

 

I may not be seeing the big picture, but there are so many comments saying 'The first thing I do is disconnect the battery'. Can someone please explain why this is an issue. I have 5 cars parked in the garage and 2 outside that have never had their batteries disconnected. Am I that lucky that none of them have caught fire?

 

Is there is an issue regarding something shorting out? With a $2mil dollar car properly restored I would think if I were the owner I would have wanted something like that fixed first and foremost!

 

Likewise with gasoline in the tank. Again, my cars all have some degree of gasoline in them presently. I have no concerns over any of them spontaneously combusting.

 

I could certainly see some ancillary product as the cause, a LI battery connected to an impact drill, an I pad/computer left in there, brakes overheating on the trailer etc.

Just seems odd that a properly sorted car will just ignite.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Will this car end up on Copart?

[rocketraider]

I donno... there's a bunch of, let's say, UNUSUAL cars listed on COPART down in "Not mine-for sale" forum.

 

Sad to see any car destroyed under circumstances such as these.

[Xander Wildeisen]

The car above is a tragedy, it will get restored. 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

The car above is a tragedy, it will get restored. 

I wouldn’t bet on it. Parts are beyond impossible for mechanicals. And with a 2.5 M value the restoration cost will easily exceed 2 M. And it’s new market value after the fire is 50 percent of its pre fire number.

[Xander Wildeisen]

44 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I wouldn’t bet on it. Parts are beyond impossible for mechanicals. And with a 2.5 M value the restoration cost will easily exceed 2 M. And it’s new market value after the fire is 50 percent of its pre fire number.

Rat rod?

[55matchless]

I built the motor for that car, about 8 years ago. Have at least 500 miles of driving time in it. Truly a great loss, that was a wonderful car.

[wayne sheldon]

6 hours ago, 55matchless said:

I built the motor for that car, about 8 years ago. Have at least 500 miles of driving time in it. Truly a great loss, that was a wonderful car.

 

That has got to hurt seeing something like this. Were you at Pebble to see it there before this happened?

[60FlatTop]

On 9/7/2024 at 8:14 AM, TAKerry said:

I have 5 cars parked in the garage and 2 outside that have never had their batteries disconnected. Am I that lucky that none of them have caught fire?

I have four parked in a similar manner. Maybe the key is "I" have them parked. I am not condemning transporters in any way but I did wonder how many of the transport trailer fires were personal rigs. All my life I had had various things that were special to me. I still have things I had when I was a kid. I can make a list of how many things were damaged in the hands of others. A trade magazine with a article about me, a person took it to make a copy, spilled coffee on it as soon as it got to his desk. A magazine I had for 30 years, folded in half by a borrower. A special tool loaned out, came back broken. Even the air vent Louvre on my Eldorado broken off- "I thought it was an ashtray".

 

How innocent the incident but so predictable. My level of trust is very low because if I tried to make a list of things that could go wrong if something is out of my sight I know somehow something totally unforeseen bu them would happen. And always right after the damage "I thought" were the words uttered.

 

So in these incidents of burning transport trailers,what percentage are owner rigs?

[EmTee]

Are the trailers used by the large, enclosed multi-vehicle commercial auto carriers equipped with fire detection/suppression systems?

[edinmass]

52 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Are the trailers used by the large, enclosed multi-vehicle commercial auto carriers equipped with fire detection/suppression systems?

Not a chance. I watched one of the big three car haulers burn to the ground on Interstate 95 about seven years ago, and was actually posting live here on this Fourm and someone with a car on the truck was able to PM me for my number………..unfortunately I gave him a play by play as his car burned. The fire was from a wheel bearing failure…….simple lack of maintenance. Entire trailer burned to the ground, the truck disconnected and was fine. 

 

 

 

[AHa]

I don't understand what I'm seeing in the last picture posted. An inferno is occurring but the ingredients to produce an inferno seem to be absent. We are talking about metal and enclosed flammables. Even a full tank of gas wouldn't cause this level of flame. As previously stated, gas in a tank produces an explosion, not an inferno. The only thing I can imagine is the interior upholstery material was highly flammable, like more so than gasoline. Look at the flames coming out from under the wheel well. The tires do not appear to be burning, but something is burning at a high rate of speed.

[55matchless]

5 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

That has got to hurt seeing something like this. Were you at Pebble to see it there before this happened?

I skipped Pebble this year for the first time in probably 15 years. Tough too see your work go up like that for sure. I'll pst some photos of the engine rebuild here later on when I get a good group together. Also, I know the person doing the transport. My money is squarely on lack of trailer maintenance, and that this was a trailer fire that consumed the car, and not the other way around.

 

[55matchless]

I don't have as many photos as I remembered. Here are a couple decent ones from the camera roll though. 

[Dave Henderson]

Doesn't the picture of the fire in the third posting on this page suggest that the fire started when wheel bearings or brakes overheated?

[Hemi Joel]

27 minutes ago, Dave Henderson said:

Doesn't the picture of the fire in the third posting on this page suggest that the fire started when wheel bearings or brakes overheated?

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. And then it caught the wood floor and the wood interior walls on fire. 

How much did that car weigh? Of course it's hard to say in a photo like that, but that looks like a short little trailer that may have had 3,500 lb  axles and little 15-in tires. I have seen where you put a heavy car in a trailer like that and the axle flex causes the top of the tires to camber in and rub on the inner wheel well.

[60FlatTop]

Interesting engine. Is that sprocket just ahead of the flywheel for a chain drive oil pump to the distributors and valve train with the rods being dip type? The open crank pins and rod channels are making me believe that.

[NewOldWood]

On 9/6/2024 at 7:58 PM, edinmass said:

Who says the wedge car burning is a bad thing? I know, it’s terrible to say it….but I was thinking out loud.

 

The HSV-12 is truly a tragedy.

 

 

I was reading through this thread thinking the same thing, and if you hadn't said it, I would have!

[wayne sheldon]

5 hours ago, 55matchless said:

I'll post some photos of the engine rebuild here later on when I get a good group together. 

 

Thank you. An incredible looking engine. Truly a loss for anyone that appreciates truly fine machinery and history.

From the looks of the fire photos? That fire was HOT! There are about one hundred Fahrenheit degrees for aluminum between repairable and gone. I wonder if there is anything much left of that engine? (Other than the steel which may be warped and the cast iron which may be cracked?)

[55matchless]

8 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Interesting engine. Is that sprocket just ahead of the flywheel for a chain drive oil pump to the distributors and valve train with the rods being dip type? The open crank pins and rod channels are making me believe that.

The crank sprocket at the back drives the cam. Pushrod overhead valves. The cam gear drives the mags. The front of the cam drives a shaft which powers the water pumps and oil pump. No splash lube, full pressure throughout. Those crank passages get closed off with large plugs.

[EmTee]

19 hours ago, 55matchless said:

My money is squarely on lack of trailer maintenance, and that this was a trailer fire that consumed the car, and not the other way around.

I think that you're probably right.  It looks like the area around the axles is the center of the fire.  If it were a gasoline fire I would expect to see the fire concentrated at one end or the other (i.e., engine or fuel tank).  I was searching the internet a few days ago for suggestions on wheel bearing grease for my enclosed trailer.  I noticed a couple of YouTube videos showing how to grease wheel bearings on axles with a zerk fitting built into the cap.  I was amazed by the one one I watched where the guy proceeds to pump nearly an entire cartridge of grease into one wheel!  Seeing that, I can only imagine that 90% of that grease went into the hub cavity between the two bearings, which does nothing except probably make the hub run hotter and provide more fuel for a grease fire if something goes wrong and a bearing overheats.

 

I found a Valvoline grease having the characteristics recommended by my axle manufacturer (Lippert) and plan to disassemble, clean, inspect and hand-pack my bearings rather than use the zerk fittings.  I'll smear a coating of grease inside the hub just to protect from corrosion.  Doing so forces me to actually look at the bearings, as well as the brakes, to ensure everything is OK.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

8 hours ago, 55matchless said:

The crank sprocket at the back drives the cam. Pushrod overhead valves. The cam gear drives the mags. The front of the cam drives a shaft which powers the water pumps and oil pump. No splash lube, full pressure throughout. Those crank passages get closed off with large plugs.

Thank you for the details. I am familiar with plugs for the crank pins on a British brand but the pictured assembly seemed farther along than the plug installation and those channeled big ends on the rods stirred my imagination. Got a little French engineering and aircraft heritage going there. I like learning new designs. The big cover supporting the ignition must be interesting. I will have to study up on their engine designs.

 

Thank you for posting.

[8E45E]

22 hours ago, Dave Henderson said:

Doesn't the picture of the fire in the third posting on this page suggest that the fire started when wheel bearings or brakes overheated?

Only flaw is not often all four wheel bearings will overheat and turn red-hot simultaneously, as the photo makes it appear.    I'll agree that one may have overheated and set the wood floor on fire, coupled with gasoline vapors inside that may have been present which would have greatly accelerated the combustion process.

 

Craig

[Bob Jacobsen]

My two cents: It appears there was still unburned paint on the rear wheel, and the fire was coming from behind the wheels, and equally from both sides, front and rear, so my guess is that all the brakes were locked or partially on.  On one occasion, I experienced someone saying "there's smoke coming from your trailer wheel" when I had just started out, forgetting to put the brake controller button to "Tow" position.  Perhaps some controllers allow voltage on the brake circuit when not in "Tow" mode?  I agree with all the comments about trailer ventilation and non-leaking fuel systems.  Perhaps don't have a full tank in the car, because trailer motion may cause overflow puddles.

 

[wayne sheldon]

A little experience from me. I only have an open sixteen foot car hauler flatbed trailer, to which I often put sideboards all around the bed. I bought it new about twenty-five years ago because the horseless era car I had gotten needed a bigger trailer than the smaller one I had had for a number of years then.

Over the years, I have put many thousands of miles on that trailer, hauling my antiques, other people's cars. modern cars that had broken down, as well as many non-cars including two moves of the entire household.

Being a new trailer, I was of course a bit negligent on routine maintenance for a few years. It was new, everything should be fine? Right?

However, a habit I have had with trailers since I was still in high school, was to routinely walk around a trailer immediately when stopping, not always, but often, and wrap my hand around each wheel hub to feel the heat. This is a habit I highly recommend! Any excess and/or abnormal heat can be quickly detected, and real trouble avoided.

So, after about fifteen years, one day I notice one hub was just slightly warmer than the other three. Clearly, it was time to inspect the wheel bearings.

Three of the wheel bearings were just fine, normal clean and fresh grease. The fourth one? Apparently, from the factory, someone screwed up the assembly. The keyed ring with the metal ears to bend over and keep the wheel bearing nut from turning either direction? It had been broken, was only about half on the spindle in such a way that the key was not keeping anything in place. It had to have been that way from before I bought the new trailer.

Somehow, the jamb nut effect had somehow held the bearing together for thousands of miles. However, it had finally worked loose enough for the bearing to work out just a couple turns loose. That in turn caused the bearing to run only slightly warm, but enough for me to notice it on my routine walk around. The simple fact is, that at any moment, at any speed, that wheel could have come off suddenly. It also could have loosened only slightly more and gotten hot enough to have started a fire.

I dodged a bullet on that one. Only by chance of timing and my routine of quick checking trailer wheel hubs did I avoid a potential disaster.

 

As an aside, I also occasionally check my motor vehicle hubs the same way. Years of doing so give me a good feeling about the "normal" temperature ranges to be expected on motor vehicle hubs. Variants include ambient temperatures, distance driven, amount of brake usage, a few other lesser considerations. I have headed off potentially serious issues on both modern and antique automobiles by feeling the hub or hubcap.

One of the "laser pointer" temperature gauges could be used? I have had one for years and use it for diagnosing many issues on automobiles when accuracy might be important. However, vehicle hub temperatures should be near a comfortable zone temperature wise. Whether the hub is 140 degrees F or 145 degrees F really doesn't really matter. As mentioned, there are so many variables that will affect actual temperature, routine checking by touch is about something hotter than it should be expected to be. Years of doing this and often enough checking with the "laser pointer" has informed me that I can pick up and hold something up to a bit over 160 degrees F. I can pick up and drop something up to about 180 degrees F, above that? It is a barely touch and yank. Not on my vehicles, but I have twice seen hubs that reached red hot! I would expect a lot more than just the bearings were ruined those times.

 

Other than a few times when there was a problem to be found? I don't think I have ever found wheel hubs hot enough that I could not hang onto them.

[arcticbuicks]

sadly in this case being a trailer queen did not save this car.....I wonder if the trailer had 'scupper' vents open or even had any.........most higher quality units have upper and lower scupper vents for travelling with vehicle enclosed to keep inside heat and or gases vented,i imagine with vent scoop open at 60 mph would be quite the air flow ? .toyhaulers with garage in same unit as living quarters all have these for vehicles with fuels in the garage part,you can see the scupper vent on my hauler between 2nd and 3rd window from the back ,other side has lower one for cross flow venting,i had them closed on a hot day with a car inside on rough road and when i stopped the gas smell was strong in the whole trailer from bouncing gas tank and heat expansion,and trailers with them always have at least one upper and lower .......i do not know the reason for that though. 

Edited September 10 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

red hot and still .....even the tire is not on fire 

[edinmass]

 

Interesting photos and speculation..........another question.....a V-12 Hisso in a trailer with 15 inch tires? Beyond asinine..........that thing was overloaded before the trailer moved from the parking lot. 

[arcticbuicks]

do you know for a fact 15 inch tires ?......looking at the photo burning ...it appears to have the larger 16 inch center hole chrome caps.......8 bolt 16 inch trailer tires are usually 7 K axles  for 14k gvw.........but it sure does look like a cheap small and wimpy trailer for such a car to be stuffed into.

Edited September 10 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Grimy]

29 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

do you know for a fact 15 inch tires ?......looking at the photo burning ...it appears to have the larger 16 inch center hole chrome caps.......8 bolt 16 inch trailer tires are usually 7 K axles  for 14k gvw.........but it sure does look like a cheap small and wimpy trailer for such a car to be stuffed into.

That's a TPD (brand) trailer made in Sacramento, CA, and appears to be a 20 ft model.  I had a 24-ft triple-axle TPD for about 16 years, and replaced it only because I needed a tall unit to accommodate my 1918 Pierce.  They were, and are in the aftermarket, heavy but by no means cheap trailers.  They are made of Fiberglass Reinforced Plywood (FRP) with gel-coat.  Mine had three Dexter 3500-lb axles with 5-lug 15-inch wheels, with brakes on all 3 axles.  Mine tracked and rode extremely well and had a low CG.  The only downside was that it tended to eat tires (cord breakage) until the Goodyear Endurance 15" tires came to market and solved that problem.  A fellow forum member has that trailer now.

[arcticbuicks]

Wow....a trailer with triple 3500 is not common i find.......when I tow larger vintage cars like a packard or big buick etc ....I have found this trailer is very comfortable, and important its fitted with the scupper vents for heat and gases to be vented also.....and being black it gets very warm in summer ,36 ft giving room front and back to lay down and tie down proper,room for error  not a car stuffed in tight fit front and back ,room for extra things,triple 8 bolt 7000 lb dexter torsion axles with 16 inch tires gives smooth ride and tires last as they are not maxed out ........the walls are 2 inch studs every ft with same for walkable roof and these trailers can survive quite a accident and stay intact in roll over with car hanging on tie downs hardly damaged [trying to find pic of real example] .......I couldnt imagine hauling a car of the value of the one burned with anything less and i do not consider this H and H a expensive trailer at $30 k ........a cam installed in the trailer is a great bonus also...... as mentioned by others .......one thing i never thought about until now is that is has thick steel wheel wells to help prevent fire from tire spreading fast i would think,i have seen trailers with poor thin or even non metal wheel wells

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, arcticbuicks said:

do you know for a fact 15 inch tires ?......looking at the photo burning ...it appears to have the larger 16 inch center hole chrome caps.......8 bolt 16 inch trailer tires are usually 7 K axles  for 14k gvw.........but it sure does look like a cheap small and wimpy trailer for such a car to be stuffed into.

 

Trailer is so small that it’s almost impossible to have the 16 inch 8 lug rims…….and it’s old, so it’s very unlikely. I haul big cars all the time……..and I use a triple axel spread and the entire trailer load is over the six 8k axles with tires that are all steel casement running 125psi and rated for 4800 pounds per tire. Trailer is 7500 pounds. GVW of trailer is 21,000 pounds giving a load capacity of 13,500 or a usual safety figure of 7000 pounds under capacity. You can never, ever have good enough equipment. While the trailer scuffs and drags in tight turns in the parking lots, it’s not too big an issue if you plan ahead and don’t take sharp turns. The other advantage is if you lose a tire, you just pull it off quickly with a battery powered impact gun and keep driving without jacking on the interstate…….and pull off in a safe place to install the spare.

 

 

[Grimy]

@arcticbuicks here in Califunny we have peculiar rules that make life difficult for us non-professional towers.  With a Class C (regular) driver's license, one can only tow a gross load of 9,999 lbs or less--BUT you're allowed to do this with a motor home of under 26k lbs!  So when we order a new trailer, the trailer certification sticker is often "administratively downgraded" to some number just under 10k lbs (9990-9995) despite having even three 5200lb 3-inch-diameter axles or even larger.  But of course the TARE weight shows on the sticker as well, and sometimes creative license is involved--so I hear 🙂 To tow a gross load of 10K or more requires a Class A license (commercial or non-commercial) which requires a triennial special physical by a DMV-approved doc--and when you are 75 yrs old or more, that's an ANNUAL special physical.

 

And I agree with @edinmass about the need for triple axles.  I know of one very expensive dual axle trailer carrying a very expensive Pierce which lost a left-side tire at speed and that took out the other tire.  Truck and trailer wound up in the median with the Pierce hanging like a bat.  Truck and trailer were totaled, the Pierce needed some fender straightening.

[arcticbuicks]

yes of course extra drivers licence requirements and physical and eye test is required for towing over 10K.......i think pretty much standard rules for north america

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

yes of course extra drivers licence requirements and physical and eye test is required for towing over 10K.......i think pretty much standard rules for north america

Nope……as far as I know it’s only Califunny that has limits like that. Since I’m legal in my state, I can run through and of the lower 48 without issue. I think the speed limit in CA is also 55mph. I try and never tow there unless absolutely necessary. My trailer is a bumper pull and it’s 37 from front to back……a big boy and definitely not easy to deal with in many areas. I love the safety and stability it provides……also with the triple set up it stops about 200 percent better than a dual axel unit. 

 

 

[TAKerry]

Pretty sure the license is a national DOT requirement. Non commercial may be different? And Ed have you ever been in PA? I too have had a small trailer from and including Canada to Fla, only problem I ever encountered was Penn State Police!! 

With these big 3 axles trailers Im surprised they arent goosenecks!