Fuel Injection

[Deadpurpledog]

Have owned 67 Riv for almost a year and have never been happy with performance and always had fuel smell.  Took to several “experts” had not much changed.  Decided to switch to fuel injection and. . .wow!  Difference is incredible.  It’s like a different car.  Need to get spacers so original red air cleaner will fit and have saved carb in case a future buyer wishes to revert.  
 

if you’re thinking about this and want to talk with a very happy converter. . .please feel at ease contacting me.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Good on you!!!   Almost 30,000 mi on my 1950 since doing the same.  Ignore the naysayers😁.

 

  Ben

[alsancle]

Updates are all fun and games until the next guy gets it.  He has to work on the car and finds out the aftermarket company ceased to exist 10 years earlier and there are no parts or documentation.

[TAKerry]

I have nothing against the FI, but I also believe that if the carb and motor are properly tuned there should not be a problem. When I restored my Trans Am I had planned on adding FI. Only because it was what every one was doing, and all the tv shows were pushing it (I was still very green, now Im just an offshade of a near ripe bananna). I talked to my builder and he convinced  me he could tune my Q jet carb the way it was intended to be, and I would be just as happy. I stuck with the carb. My car runs perfect, starts easily, even when cold and setting for longer than I want. Most people I talk to at shows with FI say 'their car starts easy now, and the motor runs smooth'. I get that out of mine as well. If thats the way you want to go thats great. I am glad it has worked out. But for those on the fence, get your carb tuned up properly and you may be surprised.

[60FlatTop]

10 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

Took to several “experts” had not much changed.

I am going to assume a different "expert" installed the fuel injection. Just thinking about my experiences.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I have nothing against the FI, but I also believe that if the carb and motor are properly tuned there should not be a problem. When I restored my Trans Am I had planned on adding FI. Only because it was what every one was doing, and all the tv shows were pushing it (I was still very green, now Im just an offshade of a near ripe bananna). I talked to my builder and he convinced  me he could tune my Q jet carb the way it was intended to be, and I would be just as happy. I stuck with the carb. My car runs perfect, starts easily, even when cold and setting for longer than I want. Most people I talk to at shows with FI say 'their car starts easy now, and the motor runs smooth'. I get that out of mine as well. If thats the way you want to go thats great. I am glad it has worked out. But for those on the fence, get your carb tuned up properly and you may be surprised.

^^^THIS! I remain amazed that people who can't figure out how to rebuild and tune a simple carb think that a far more complex (and significantly less transparent) aftermarket throttle body fuel injection system will be easier for them. I'm sure it works great out of the box. How will it be a year or two from now when the injectors get gummed up with deposits from crappy fuel and the unobtanium gaskets dry out? What happens when the electrical connections start to corrode and you have to chase down those intermittent problems? Sorry, but no aftermarket system has even a fraction of the engineering and testing that went into OEM hardware, especially a one-size-fits-none aftermarket EFI system.

[Riv Eng]

12 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

If you’re thinking about this and want to talk with a very happy converter. . .please feel at ease contacting me.

Also considering this for my 64 restoration currently underway. What system did you go with? I've been eyeing the Holley Sniper or Super Sniper for my 2x4 425. 

[carbking]

It really boils down to personal choice.

 

Ben Bruce has proved that an aftermarket EFI unit CAN be reliable, but lots of other folks without Ben's ability have proved otherwise.

 

Before aftermarket EFI, we saw a similar phenomenon with aftermarket carburetors: GENERALLY, a brand new item will perform better than a worn-out item. Lots of folks sacrificed fuel economy and performance on the street by installing aftermarket carburetors. Many because they did not know, nor did they care to learn, how to rebuild their carburetor. Others because they are in tune with modern electronics. But I would hesitate to say ANY aftermarket EFI is really BETTER than a properly-tuned original carburetor.

 

And as Joe mentioned, a few years from now, what about parts (everything made by man will eventually fail) and an understanding as to what parts are needed, and how to install them.

 

I no longer attempt to talk anyone out of EFI or electronic ignition; it is a free country (almost). But don't believe either will solve all problems. We suggest getting the vehicle running to its potential on the original carburetion system and ignition and run some tests. Then do the conversion, and comparison tests. Over the decades, we have had a LOT of customers return to original carburetors over aftermarket, a LOT of customers return to points and condenser from a ignition conversion, and since comparitively new, a few customers return to the original carburetor from EFI.

 

The key is making sure one's vehicle is running to potential, and then testing prior to the conversion.

 

Jon

[XframeFX]

13 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

never been happy with performance and always had fuel smell.

And you tolerated your original configuration for only a year!

Never noticed enough to be a concern >40 years ago. But, can totally relate today. UNACCEPTABLE! That's why I was blaming todays fuel formulation which has my findings inconclusive. Enough research and tweaking, I want a plug-and-play product that delivers results. No more sticking to an original look in the Engine Bay. I already see the days of the original Pancake Air Cleaner are numbered.

54 minutes ago, carbking said:

The key is making sure one's vehicle is running to potential, and then testing prior to the conversion.

I used up several sets of sparkplugs in diagnostic attempts the old fashion way with a vacuum gauge/timing light. Ultimately, a bung in an exhaust pipe for an O2 sensor for real time closed loop control to EFI, yes. For off-line with a carburetor, need to purchase a Wideband Air/Fuel Instrument and PicoScope to tune original equipment all over again for todays fuels. Original state of tune with original induction, NG.

 

My thinking is that I accept poor MPG for the few miles I do each year (Hagerty has a lucrative business with us!) But, when out on the road and even idling, I do not enjoy it. I only enjoy looking at it with the Nailhead Shutdown. Extensive mods to make for an enjoyable cruising machine? So much for keeping my Riviera original. An LS3 and OD transmission in the tight confines of that X-Frame?

 

Excuse my negativity. I resolved nothing with my Nailhead over the winter and no time this year. Someone sell me a widget that installs in 1 hour to make my Nailhead run right!

[NTX5467]

Point to remember . . . a carburetor, like a throttle-body EFI, is nothing more than a "fuel mixer".  Which is why a throttle body EFI shows no more power on a dyno run.

 

The system that Ben started with was based on the mid-1980s GM ECM system for throttle body injection.  It used reman or new GM-designed parts, which could be sourced from an auto supply.  They burned a chip to match his application.  Newer versions, which I believe he has, can also control ignition timing for a complete engine management system.  BTAIM  One of the advances Ben experienced was increased fuel economy on trips.  Still, a 2-3mpg possible will not financially-justify the expenditure, by observations.

 

What CAN justify the expenditure is increased drivability of the vehicle, no matter the altitude or ambient temperature.

 

I conversed with a person on the BCA forums about an EFI system he had installed on a '68 Electra 430.  Went from 19mph highway to 8 in one feld swoop.  Must have been a programming issue related to the cam specs?  Since that time programming parameters have been upgraded and enhanced.  Never did find out if the mpg improved with tuning inputs or increased run time.

 

In general, a factory Rochester carburetor is one of the most bulletproof carburetors which ever existed.  Solid performance as long as it is generally unmolested.  Usually easy and simple to work on, if needed.  Might not be exactly high-tech cutting edge, but still good.

 

ONE reason that EFI "drives better" than a carburetor is that a carburetor meters fuel "as air velocity through the venturis increases.  An electronic FI system meters fuel when the throttle pedal (via TPS) moves at all.  As soon as the throttle is opening, the computer is instructing the fuel injectors to immediately add more fuel to the fire.  Rather than waiting for air speed in the venturis to increase.   Which ALSO means that an unsteady throttle foot can quickly degrade fuel economy, big time.

 

Similarly, whenever the throttle input goes to "idle" or "zero", the system immediately takes fuel out of the mix, which can result in "instant fuel economy" of up to 99mph during coast-down times.  Which can be another way to improve fuel economy.  IF you have a modern vehicle with a Driver Info Center which reads-out "Instant MPG" or "Average MPG", you can learn how to drive them to get better fuel economy.  Especially by "coasting" up to stpo signs rather than "driving" up to them and hitting the brakes.  Similarly, brisk acceleration gets the vehicle up to speed quicker with less fuel consumption rather than "taking it easy", as we were told ages ago.

 

A finely-tuned carburetor can be great, provided "anybody" can drive the car and not get frustrated.  Most of us learn the equipment and how to best manipulate if to do what we want it to.  Which might take some different ways to operate it when cold, or otherwise.  EFI has the benefit of not needing special care or procedures to make it work well, just as with factory EFI systems.  "Crank and go".

 

For younger people, EFI is what they know about.  A carburetor is "foreign" to them.  THEY would be a big target market for EFI rather than older people who know how to work on and tweak carburetors, I suspect.

 

Hopefully, ANY money spent (or saved) by either option will be in the owner's best interest.

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

As to EFI vendors, Holley has several systems to consider.  Some with more benefits than others.  Getting one of their newest systems can be important, for many reasons.  Edelbrock has some EFI systems, too.  BOTH entities are now owned by large investor groups, as each has their own group of formerly-separate performance industry brands.  

 

The Holley website has lots of videos on their systems and how to fix them.  In either case, I doubt either will be leaving the automotive aftermarket in the next decade or so.

 

Ben started out with Affordable EFI, which I had never heard of, but is one of the growing number of EFI vendors.

 

Other than the cost of the EFI system, a new ignition distributor is also needed to give the EFI computer the needed ignition signal for things to work.  Figure another amount of money on top of the basic EFI kit.

 

RFI (radio frequency interference) can be an issue with EFI.  Shielding from such might be necessary.  One issue with the early Bendix Electrojector systems was the RFI from mercury-vapor street lights, so i understand.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Hazdaz]

FI sounds great if you drive your car a lot, or drive it in varied climates or varied conditions.  With a carb you essentially have one dumb nozzle for the cold or when hot or when at fuel throttle or when idling with no feedback.  Of course I am oversimplifying things, but at the end of the day, I just like to cruise around a little in my Riv during the warmer months and that's about it.  I'm not driving it in the winter, or at high altitudes or cross country.  Set it for one tune and that's pretty good for all of the conditions that I want the car to operate in.  If you asked me before I bought the Riv if FI would have been in the cards, I probably would have said yes.  Same with disc brakes.  But honestly its perfectly fine without those upgrades.  If it was a true muscle car that I was taking to the track or drag racing it, then my answer would be different.  But it is a gorgeous cruiser for the summer, and it (usually) handles those duties splendidly.

 

Now having said all that, I still am interested in hearing more about one's adventures in FI Town and how complicated the process was and roughly how much it all cost.  I still enjoy seeing how people modify their cars to suite their tastes - authentic (OEM) doesn't really mean much to me.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Hazdaz said:

With a carb you essentially have one dumb nozzle for the cold or when hot or when at fuel throttle or when idling with no feedback. 

Even as a simplification, this is completely incorrect. Even the "calibrated leak" Holley carbs have separate idle, main, and power metering systems. The Quadrajet has significantly more sophisticated metering capability that that.

 

People who think they need to have a computer to meter fuel don't realize that a carb IS a computer - it is a mechanical, analog computer. There's nothing wrong with analog computers. We designed a whole lot of sophisticated aircraft and missiles using analog computers and flew them with analog systems. As an example of the sophistication of the Qjet, those flapper doors above the secondary throttle bores are not vacuum operated, contrary to popular belief. They are a mechanical mass airflow sensor. The secondary metering system is actuated by this mass airflow sensor, as a cam on the shaft for those doors has a cam that moves the secondary metering rods. These tapered rods are contoured to match the fuel requirements of the engine that the carb is calibrated for. This is exactly the same as how EFI works, the EFI needs someone to create an injector duty cycle map vs MAF for the engine in question. Will your one-size-fits-none EFI have a map that's as well-matched to your engine as Rochester did for every single engine GM made? Doubtful.

 

If you want EFI to show off at cruise night, it's your money. Just don't kid yourself that it will be as well calibrated as the OEM carb on a relatively stock engine.

 

By the way, I should point out that the E-brock carbs are simply less-sophisticated versions of the Qjet. They have similar primary metering rods but fixed jets on the secondary side. They also don't have the precision triple venturies that the Qjet has on the primaries. And yeah, a brand new carb out of the box probably WILL run better than your neglected, crusty, leaking original, even if it isn't properly tuned. That doesn't mean it's correct.

[Deadpurpledog]

I understand your perspective, Joe.  You’re probably right for auto mechanics and those who have worked with cars for years.  You might want to consider the rest of us.  People who like to drive and enjoy classics.  People who may know a few things . . .or not. . And either way don’t work much on their cars.  We need others to help us.  Do you know how difficult it is to find a truly excellent carburetor mechanic?  More, to find an honest one?  Any idea how much money and time that search can consume?

[Deadpurpledog]

Thanks for asking.  I had a Holley Sniper installed.  Is it possible they’ll be out of business in 10 years?  Sure.  Is it possible they’ll be in business yet not carry replacement parts?  Sure.  More likely, original parts will no longer be available for a then 70 year old car. . .don’t you think?

[Deadpurpledog]

Sniper seems to have solved all of my issues, Riv Eng.  Don’t know what fair price is. . .I paid $3,200 complete, Hazdaz, with parts & labor warranties.

Edited April 14 by Deadpurpledog
To add member name (see edit history)

[Deadpurpledog]

10 hours ago, XframeFX said:

And you tolerated your original configuration for only a year!

Never noticed enough to be a concern >40 years ago. But, can totally relate today. UNACCEPTABLE! That's why I was blaming todays fuel formulation which has my findings inconclusive. Enough research and tweaking, I want a plug-and-play product that delivers results. No more sticking to an original look in the Engine Bay. I already see the days of the original Pancake Air Cleaner are numbered.

I used up several sets of sparkplugs in diagnostic attempts the old fashion way with a vacuum gauge/timing light. Ultimately, a bung in an exhaust pipe for an O2 sensor for real time closed loop control to EFI, yes. For off-line with a carburetor, need to purchase a Wideband Air/Fuel Instrument and PicoScope to tune original equipment all over again for todays fuels. Original state of tune with original induction, NG.

 

My thinking is that I accept poor MPG for the few miles I do each year (Hagerty has a lucrative business with us!) But, when out on the road and even idling, I do not enjoy it. I only enjoy looking at it with the Nailhead Shutdown. Extensive mods to make for an enjoyable cruising machine? So much for keeping my Riviera original. An LS3 and OD transmission in the tight confines of that X-Frame?

 

Excuse my negativity. I resolved nothing with my Nailhead over the winter and no time this year. Someone sell me a widget that installs in 1 hour to make my Nailhead run right!

Haven’t had it long enough to take a strong position.  Took more than an hour and cost more than a few bucks.  Very early returns. . . runs like a different vehicle.

[Deadpurpledog]

15 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I am going to assume a different "expert" installed the fuel injection. Just thinking about my experiences.

Yes, think they knew what they were doing.  Time will tell, won’t it?

[joe_padavano]

7 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

I understand your perspective, Joe.  You’re probably right for auto mechanics and those who have worked with cars for years.  You might want to consider the rest of us.  People who like to drive and enjoy classics.  People who may know a few things . . .or not. . And either way don’t work much on their cars.  We need others to help us.  Do you know how difficult it is to find a truly excellent carburetor mechanic?  More, to find an honest one?  Any idea how much money and time that search can consume?

I can recommend a few Qjet experts who I trust.

[TAKerry]

I guess I am lucky that my mechanic (60yrs old) told me he started rebuilding q jets when he was 15.  I made a comment before that on the motor he recently built for me I was a bit disappointed in the looks of the carb. Comparing to some restorations (and how I like to restore things) it was down right shabby. He flat out told me, he was not going to paint or shine things up, BUT it would run perfect when he was done. The work he did on my other motor indeed runs perfect, and although I have only started the new motor a couple of times once fuel hit the bowl it fired right up and sounded darn good. As far as rebuilders I know of another fellow in the Trans Am world that will 'restore' the Q jet, he will paint and shine it up, put it to proper tune and return as a servicable unit. I think the last time I check he was around $300 plus shipping. Quite a bit of a savings over the cost of a new EFI!

 

My car has no quirks or special hand signals needed to get it to start or stay running. Anyone off the street that knows how to drive a car can get in, turn the key and take it for a drive (with my permission of course😁) without any special instructions. 

[Deadpurpledog]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I can recommend a few Qjet experts who I trust.

Thanks Joe.  I’m in Las Vegas and couldn’t find one.  Unless FI fails, am done with carbs.  Appreciate you understanding.

[Deadpurpledog]

2 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I guess I am lucky that my mechanic (60yrs old) told me he started rebuilding q jets when he was 15.  I made a comment before that on the motor he recently built for me I was a bit disappointed in the looks of the carb. Comparing to some restorations (and how I like to restore things) it was down right shabby. He flat out told me, he was not going to paint or shine things up, BUT it would run perfect when he was done. The work he did on my other motor indeed runs perfect, and although I have only started the new motor a couple of times once fuel hit the bowl it fired right up and sounded darn good. As far as rebuilders I know of another fellow in the Trans Am world that will 'restore' the Q jet, he will paint and shine it up, put it to proper tune and return as a servicable unit. I think the last time I check he was around $300 plus shipping. Quite a bit of a savings over the cost of a new EFI!

 

My car has no quirks or special hand signals needed to get it to start or stay running. Anyone off the street that knows how to drive a car can get in, turn the key and take it for a drive (with my permission of course😁) without any special instructions. 

Thanks TAKerry.  Deed is done.  More “news at 11”.

[NTX5467]

Carburetors never were painted, they normally had a light cad coating for surface preservation.  Not looks.  That cad coating would evaporate or be taken off by some carb cleaners.  I'll take a flaky-looking carb that works well over one that looks great but does not work as it should, personally.

 

One of my orientations is to "learn the machinery and what it likes", then make sure to use it in that manner for best mutually-beneficial results.  NOT expect the machinery to do everything I might desire, flawlessly.  I figured that out ages ago.  If the machinery might be ill-suited for your use, find something else that might work better for you.  Don't expect miracles.

 

KEY thing can be learning to tweak rather than cuss.  Unfortunately, some might not be qualified to "tweak", so the alternative can come easily, by observation.

 

Sometimes we have elevated expectations, too.  When GM put TBI on the 454 engines, which was a 2bbl system of about 500cfm, many liked the way it drove, but "lacked top end power".  Like when they expected the 4bbl to kick-in (for that last 25% of throttle), but there was no sound or feel or additional power.  GM put out a TSB which stated that the last 25% of throttle only resulted in a 10% increase in air flow.

 

EFI can produce better fuel economy, fewer emissions, better drivability, and ease of operation, typically, in many applications.  Moreso if the prior carburetor was not as it should have been, lesser if the orig carb was well-matched to the application.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of the QJet carb.  Reason?  Why should it take a hammer and punch to initiate getting the air horn off the carburetor?  Bad design, to me, but I do acknowledge that is a good carburetor made better with the triple-booster primary venturis.  I like the Holley 4175s better as I am used to dealing with Holleys.  On the 4175 on my '77 Camaro V-8, i tweaked the elec choke adjustment to get the choke off as soon as possible in cold weather.  The NGK V-power plugs helped it through the earlier parts of warm-up.  IF it starts to act like it wants to die, just a small pat of the accel pedal gets enough accel pump shot to keep things going and backed-out of the driveway.  One block to a Yield sign, full stop at the end of the 2nd block and it's at slow idle.  Thinking and knowing to "catch it" before it dies is important, but most would let it die and cuss.  Tweak to get the best adjustment and THEN let it do its job.

 

Pre-EFI, it seemed more people know how to "drive" carburetors.  Worse now.

 

We know that carb soak cleaners will not remove hard deposits in the fuel circuits or air bleed circuits of carburetors.  A GOOD carb rebuilder recognized this, or should.  IF a problem persists after a clean rebuild with quality parts, THEN research begins.  I know this first-hand as I rebuilt a Carter BBD on one of my cars, which did not fix the issue I was experiencing.  It took quite a bit of research to discover what a "Low Speed Jet" was and where it was.  After that, it was easy to get it back to its original size.  If I had not been doing this myself, I might have sold the car or spent lots of money to have a clean carburetor.  For me, this was an expanded learning experience as there were few options available in different carburetors to fit that engine.   Once done, no real need for anything else, other than a 4bbl and intake.

 

I DO have one of the earlier Holley 2bbl TBI kits, which is universal in nature, with "build-it-yourself" wiring harnesses and instructions.  It has a simple computer, but WOT must be manually fine-tuned.  Still in the box.  It can be "For Sale" less expensive than the later self-learning systems!

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[joe_padavano]

I certainly have never taken a hammer to a Qjet air horn.

[carbking]

I think what Willis is referring to is the neccesity of using a small hammer and punch on SOME Q-jets to push open the pump arm retaining pin. This is not required on all Q-Jets.

 

And there have been MANY older carburetors that WERE painted; the newest which comes to mind is the 1966 turbo Corvair with the Carter YH 4141s, painted black with chrome trim.

 

Jon

[rocketraider]

Way back in the long long time ago I wasn't paying as good attention as I should have been and managed to push the pump lever roll pin too far in.🤦‍♂️

 

Ended up having to tap the blade of my pocket knife down between the roll pin and the air horn to move the roll pin back where I could pry it back thru the pump lever with a screwdriver.

 

Amazingly I didn't mess up me near new Case pocket knife. But I definitely learned to pay attention that day. 

[60FlatTop]

22 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

Pre-EFI, it seemed more people know how to "drive" carburetors. 

I taught my daughter how to start carbureted cars. One was my '64 Riviera. I told her you must push the gas pedal all the way to the floor to set the choke before starting. Because of the console I couldn't see her foot from the passenger side. It started with a bit of a flare in RPM. She gave me "that look" as I dived for the key and she held her foot down.

 

The end result was:

pieces of the piston in the pan

And an empty hole:

 

Yes, she did go on to drive other carbureted cars, but she had enhanced "motor skills".

 

And there are times when I still chuckle when I avoid making ambiguous statements.  She is 20 years older now and I think she is one of the flew people to really recognize how accepting I can be about the things life sends my way.

 

I do like carbs and FI but mostly where either is in its original design.

[NTX5467]

Back then, it would have been more of a sin to damage a good Case knife.

[NTX5467]

On vehicles with normal starting techniques, "all the way to the floor" can be changed to "1/2 way down" and work equally as well for letting the automatic choke do its thing.  In some cases, even 1/3 the way down will work well.

[RivNut]

You only need to tap the accelerator far enough and long enough for the choke to reset.  It’s still in the same place it was the last time the car shut off.  The choke spring has cooled and will close the choke as soon as the throttle linkage releases its hold on the choke.  
 

Pumping the accelerator for your particular engine is probably unique to your engine and how long it’s been since the carb was rebuilt.

[drhach]

My only complaint about a Quadrajet is the tiny float bowl that evaporates modern gas in about two days. That's one area where a closed system with a fuel pump has a very distinct advantage over carbs. Some would say that cranking it primes the oil pump anyway. 

 

 

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/13/2024 at 4:56 AM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Good on you!!!   Almost 30,000 mi on my 1950 since doing the same.  Ignore the naysayers😁.

 

  Ben

Thanks Ben.  Hoping my experience mirrors yours.

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/13/2024 at 5:20 AM, alsancle said:

Updates are all fun and games until the next guy gets it.  He has to work on the car and finds out the aftermarket company ceased to exist 10 years earlier and there are no parts or documentation.

Thanks.  You’re right. . .learned this as I’ve tried to bring my Riviera to a high level.  In this instance, however, don’t see Holley disappearing soon.

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/13/2024 at 4:11 PM, NTX5467 said:

Point to remember . . . a carburetor, like a throttle-body EFI, is nothing more than a "fuel mixer".  Which is why a throttle body EFI shows no more power on a dyno run.

 

The system that Ben started with was based on the mid-1980s GM ECM system for throttle body injection.  It used reman or new GM-designed parts, which could be sourced from an auto supply.  They burned a chip to match his application.  Newer versions, which I believe he has, can also control ignition timing for a complete engine management system.  BTAIM  One of the advances Ben experienced was increased fuel economy on trips.  Still, a 2-3mpg possible will not financially-justify the expenditure, by observations.

 

What CAN justify the expenditure is increased drivability of the vehicle, no matter the altitude or ambient temperature.

 

I conversed with a person on the BCA forums about an EFI system he had installed on a '68 Electra 430.  Went from 19mph highway to 8 in one feld swoop.  Must have been a programming issue related to the cam specs?  Since that time programming parameters have been upgraded and enhanced.  Never did find out if the mpg improved with tuning inputs or increased run time.

 

In general, a factory Rochester carburetor is one of the most bulletproof carburetors which ever existed.  Solid performance as long as it is generally unmolested.  Usually easy and simple to work on, if needed.  Might not be exactly high-tech cutting edge, but still good.

 

ONE reason that EFI "drives better" than a carburetor is that a carburetor meters fuel "as air velocity through the venturis increases.  An electronic FI system meters fuel when the throttle pedal (via TPS) moves at all.  As soon as the throttle is opening, the computer is instructing the fuel injectors to immediately add more fuel to the fire.  Rather than waiting for air speed in the venturis to increase.   Which ALSO means that an unsteady throttle foot can quickly degrade fuel economy, big time.

 

Similarly, whenever the throttle input goes to "idle" or "zero", the system immediately takes fuel out of the mix, which can result in "instant fuel economy" of up to 99mph during coast-down times.  Which can be another way to improve fuel economy.  IF you have a modern vehicle with a Driver Info Center which reads-out "Instant MPG" or "Average MPG", you can learn how to drive them to get better fuel economy.  Especially by "coasting" up to stpo signs rather than "driving" up to them and hitting the brakes.  Similarly, brisk acceleration gets the vehicle up to speed quicker with less fuel consumption rather than "taking it easy", as we were told ages ago.

 

A finely-tuned carburetor can be great, provided "anybody" can drive the car and not get frustrated.  Most of us learn the equipment and how to best manipulate if to do what we want it to.  Which might take some different ways to operate it when cold, or otherwise.  EFI has the benefit of not needing special care or procedures to make it work well, just as with factory EFI systems.  "Crank and go".

 

For younger people, EFI is what they know about.  A carburetor is "foreign" to them.  THEY would be a big target market for EFI rather than older people who know how to work on and tweak carburetors, I suspect.

 

Hopefully, ANY money spent (or saved) by either option will be in the owner's best interest.

 

NTX5467

I’m absolutely an ‘older” person NTX and . . . Even though born in England. . . .dont see constantly tweeking & repairing parts of the fun.  I love the way it looks and feels.  More, even though only 75% my age it feels like a kindred spirit.

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/13/2024 at 5:28 PM, Hazdaz said:

FI sounds great if you drive your car a lot, or drive it in varied climates or varied conditions.  With a carb you essentially have one dumb nozzle for the cold or when hot or when at fuel throttle or when idling with no feedback.  Of course I am oversimplifying things, but at the end of the day, I just like to cruise around a little in my Riv during the warmer months and that's about it.  I'm not driving it in the winter, or at high altitudes or cross country.  Set it for one tune and that's pretty good for all of the conditions that I want the car to operate in.  If you asked me before I bought the Riv if FI would have been in the cards, I probably would have said yes.  Same with disc brakes.  But honestly its perfectly fine without those upgrades.  If it was a true muscle car that I was taking to the track or drag racing it, then my answer would be different.  But it is a gorgeous cruiser for the summer, and it (usually) handles those duties splendidly.

 

Now having said all that, I still am interested in hearing more about one's adventures in FI Town and how complicated the process was and roughly how much it all cost.  I still enjoy seeing how people modify their cars to suite their tastes - authentic (OEM) doesn't really mean much to me.

Thanks Hazdaz.  Learned something 2nd drive following installation when my Riviera died while driving.  Turns out you can’t top them off.  There’s a small filter near top of fuel entrance.  When FI pulls fuel there needs to be some air . . .otherwise, the suction grabs the filter!  Who knew?  Always something, isn’t there?

[60FlatTop]

21 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

On vehicles with normal starting techniques, "all the way to the floor" can be changed to "1/2 way down" and work equally as well for letting the automatic choke do its thing.  In some cases, even 1/3 the way down will work well.

Where is the roll your eyes Emoji? My point was agreeing that a carbureted car needs some so of learning, full, half, whatever. You must know my wife. The other day I told her that she had been correcting everything I said for the last 43 years. She replied "44".

[NTX5467]

Actually, my initial thought was that the "all the way to the floor" had to do with Buick's typical starting system, more than anything else.  As a way to decrease the load on the starter to turn the engine with the throttle plates wide open.  With their "high-tech" mechanism to replace the more basic "starter pedal by the foot-feed" situation, like on our '51 GM pickup truck.

 

I don't know that I've ever met Mrs. 60FlatTop, but she must be an outstanding lady.

 

Enjoy,

NTX5467

Edited April 16 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

Mrs. 60FlatTop, but she must be an outstanding lady.

Some say she is the epitome of tolerance.

 

When she was driving our older cars I did tell her to put it to the floor once to set the choke before starting. I train well and know when I need to deal in absolutes to make my life easy.

 

The broken piston on WOT startup wasn't really a bad thing. There had been a roughness at idle that I had been chasing that may have been the piston failing due to a crack. I have seen other Nailheads crack those rear pistons since. The replacement rebuilt 425 is fine and year code correct.

 

 

[LarryDolphins]

On 4/14/2024 at 4:42 AM, joe_padavano said:

I can recommend a few Qjet experts who I trust.

Joe,

Do you happen to know any Qjet experts in the Los Angeles area ?

[XframeFX]

22 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

Even though born in England. . . .dont see constantly tweeking & repairing parts of the fun.  I love the way it looks and feels.

Ha, meaning Lucas Ignition Systems in rainy weather NG?😝

I concur, constantly tweaking no fun, try 3X for practically every issue I encountered. WSW Tires, what a Fiasco! I'm glad I did not spring for Tom T's Steering Box. My Power Steering and the DynaFlow work fine. Need to focus on other drivability issues.

I concur, like your 2nd Gen Riviera, I could LOOK at the fine lines of my 1st Gen. Riviera for hours. Sitting in the comfy driver's seat that was re-repaired has a nice view of that awesome dashboard. Just don't turn the key, LOL!