modela28 Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I think GE's info is just wrong. The stats for 1900 and 1917 can't be the same. EVs have never, ever been very widely used even going back to the turn of last century. I'm afraid there are too many people in the media that are trying to put out erroneous historical info today to try to sway the public toward EVs. If the American people want EVs, then the market place, not the White House, not the media, not bogus climate change propaganda will make it happen. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I do not doubt the production of a large scale of Electric vehicles at the turn of the century and or steam. It was a new industry and everyone was trying to get a piece of the action, and to figure out the best product for the consumer. Im just saying that there is no way they made more electric and steam cars in 1917 than gas. I would almost think that by 1917 the production levels of those type of vehicles would have been on the decline. Another case of history re written and people believing it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 i think henry ford could have changed the future ......when he worked with edison on a EV prototype model T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modela28 Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 17 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said: i think henry ford could have changed the future ......when he worked with edison on a EV prototype model T Henry Ford did change the future. He just did it the most economical, practical, fastest way possible last century with a gasoline automobile! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 News Reviews Buyer's Guide Watch MotorTrend+ The Future Profile News Reviews Buyer's Guide Watch New Cars MotorTrend+ Features The Future Ultimate Rankings No Boring Cars HOT ROD Truck & Off Road Tech and How-To Magazine Subscriptions Store Events Sweepstakes JOIN MOTORTREND Connect on FacebookConnect on TwitterConnect on Instagram Gasoline vs Electric Cars: Not Much Has Changed in 100 Years We must not have learned from history, because we’re repeating it View Gallery 14 Photos Related Video Aaron GoldBrandon LimPhotographerThe Henry FordPhotographer Feb 27, 2020 We all know the adage about those who refuse to learn from history—and it seems we learned nothing from the earliest days of electric cars. Go back through the history of the great gas-vs.-electric battle, and you will likely be amazed at the similarities between then and now: Range anxiety, quick charging, electrics as chariots of the elite, Elon Musk as the electric car's Messiah, even Tesla's well-publicized battery fires and Ford's promising new EV—the whole pantomime played out more than 100 years ago, almost exactly as we're seeing it today. Who Built the First Electric Car? Electric cars date back to the dawn of the electric motor, when Hungarian inventor Ányos Jedlik fitted his "lightning-magnetic self-rotor" of 1827 to a toy car. But it wasn't until the 1880s that EVs really started to gain traction. Credit the electric trolley: Its speed gave many people their first taste of rapid transit, while large crowds on the cars spurred interest in personal transport. The primary beneficiary was the newly developed safety bicycle, but much of the technology developed for trolley cars—motors, control systems, and batteries—could also be adapted to smaller vehicles. SPONSORED CONTENT Velvet Triple Stitch Sneaker By Harry Rosen CA Despite the fact early electric cars outperformed their internal-combustion competitors, Thomas Edison was seriously impressed by Henry Ford's gasoline-powered Quadricycle of 1894. "Young man, that's the thing," he supposedly told Ford. "Electric cars must be kept near to power stations. The storage battery is too heavy. Steam cars won't do, either, for they have to have a boiler and a fire. Your car is self-contained—carries its own power plant—no fire, no boiler, no smoke, and no steam. You have the thing. Keep at it." View Gallery 14 Photos One of the First Electric Vehicles: the Electrobat At the time, the state of the art in terms of electric vehicles was represented by the Electrobat, developed by Philadelphian chemist Pedro Salom and mechanical engineer Henry Morris. The Electrobat I could reach 15 mph—5 mph slower than Ford's Quadricycle—and travel 50-100 miles on a single charge. Later Electrobats cut weight and added speed at the expense of range. What were the Disadvantages of Electric Cars? Just as Edison immediately saw the advantage of the gasoline car, Salom zeroed in on its downsides. "All the gasoline motors we have seen," he said in a presentation to the Franklin Institute, "belch forth from their exhaust pipe a continuous stream of partially unconsumed hydrocarbons in the form of a thin smoke with a highly noxious odor. Imagine thousands of such vehicles on the streets, each offering up its column of smell." He cited the complexity of the gasoline car, which made it difficult to drive and prone to breakdowns. "It would be absolutely essential to have a skillful engineer and machinist to operate them," he said. "Whereas, on an electric vehicle, we can take a boy 12 or 14 years of age, or a young lady accustomed to driving a horse, and, with 10 minutes' practice, they can operate the vehicle perfectly." Even Edison, despite his praise for Ford, realized the shortcomings of gasoline cars made electricity a better choice. View Gallery 14 Photos Why Did Electric Cars Lose Popularity in the Early 1900s? The biggest barrier to electric cars was the lack of infrastructure. Sound familiar? At the turn of the century, most homes, even those of wealthy families, lacked electricity. In 1900, C.E. Woods, author of "The Electric Automobile: Its Construction, Care and Operation," proposed a network of public pay-per-use chargers that would allow a person to drive from New York to San Francisco. His idea was that after four hours of driving, both battery and occupants would be exhausted, so why not plug in the car and go enjoy a meal? His charge-while-you-eat vision would finally be realized, in some part, by Tesla's Supercharger network—but then as now his idea was hamstrung by the lack of standard EV plugs. Battery technology was also a limitation, and range and weight were not the only problems. Lead-acid batteries of the era were exceptionally maintenance-intensive. Even Salom and Morris, veterans of the trolley industry, thought battery maintenance would be beyond the scope of private owners. Maintenance required removing a 500- to 1,000-pound battery every few days to check the acid in each cell with a hydrometer, top off low cells, replace dead cells, remove the sludge from the bottom of the cell jars, and periodically clean or replace the positive plates. Charles Duryea, a dissatisfied EV owner who would develop America's first gasoline-powered car in 1894, complained that "a set of batteries was worse to take care of than a hospital full of sick dogs." View Gallery 14 Photos Salom and Morris developed a fleet of cabs for New York City, but soon ran into trouble. The batteries were developed for stationary use in power stations; as it turned out, they weren't up to the rough ride and deep-discharge cycles of cab service. Even with proper maintenance, they failed after a few months, and word of the failures quickly spread in the motoring press. A near-decade-long "dark age" set in during which interest in EVs waned—much like the decade between General Motors' EV-1 and the first Tesla cars. Then as now, without a better battery, EVs were a non-starter. When was America Electrified? The timing was unfortunate, as urban electrification spread rapidly. By 1905, electricity was considered a must-have for retail shops and offered massive cost savings to industries. As supply surged and prices dropped, electric companies began loaning and even giving away appliances. They began to see electric vehicles as a potential profit center and load leveler. Demand for power was almost non-existent at night, a problem that overnight EV charging could solve. Though motoring was still expensive, automobile touring was becoming the nation's new pastime. And since such touring required range, gasoline had the clear advantage over electricity. What the electric car needed was a hero, and Edison—arguably the Musk of his day—stepped into that role. The Edison Storage Battery Company In 1901 he formed the Edison Storage Battery Company and began development of a better battery. Electric-car followers thought Edison's genius would quickly solve the EV's problems, but his early batteries had problems ranging from acid eating through welded seams to exploding cells to rapid loss of capacity. As word leaked out—much like the acid—it seemed as if any hope for an electric-car revolution was in vain. View Gallery 14 Photos Meanwhile, Ford was determined to bring motoring to the masses. He founded Ford Motor Co. in 1903, and initially offered a broad lineup of vehicles. The success of the entry-level Model N strengthened Ford's resolve to concentrate on low-cost motoring, and by 1908 he had discontinued nearly every car in his company's range, replacing them with his newest creation, the Model T. When did Thomas Edison Invent the Storage Battery? Edison continued development, and the breakthrough finally came in 1907 with new technology for both the positive electrode and the electrolyte. In June 1908, he declared his new battery complete. Edison's nickel-iron battery was at least twice as expensive as competing lead-acid batteries, but it was maintenance free and lasted four years. So great was the threat that Edison's biggest competitor, the Electric Storage Battery Company—later renamed Exide—developed a competing battery called the Ironclad, though it contained no iron. It was a standard lead-acid battery that could, with careful maintenance, last a whole two years. Early Electric Car Companies All of these battery improvements fed a surge in electric car sales that began around 1907, the same year the Anderson Carriage Company introduced a new car called the Detroit Electric. Competitor Baker Motor Vehicles offered an electric roadster that could reach 40 MPH—same as the Model T—and run 100 miles at a more conservative 14 mph. At a time when the rural speed limit was still 25, this was considered acceptable performance. View Gallery 14 Photos When did Electric Cars Become Popular? With car ownership on the rise, EV manufacturers began concentrating on the urban market. Horses still clogged city streets, impeding the progress of motor vehicles. Electric cars were targeted at upscale city dwellers, as they could easily emulate the usage patterns of the horse and wagon. Electric-car garages appeared with a business model taken directly from livery stables: For a monthly fee, cars would be charged, cleaned and maintained nightly, and delivered to the house as needed, just like their carriages. Electric cars proved to be popular with women. Hand-cranking was the gasoline car's biggest pain point, as it required physical strength and was fraught with danger: A starting attempt gone wrong could break arms, dislocate shoulders, and shatter teeth. Electric cars, on the other hand, started with the flip of a switch and rarely broke down. They were inherently more expensive than gasoline cars, so manufacturers began appointing them lavishly and targeting them toward upscale women. Owners included Ford's wife, Clara, who bought her first Detroit Electric in 1908. (Her 1914 Detroit Electric Model 47 Brougham, seen below, is on display at The Henry Ford museum.) Electrics soon gained a reputation as the carriages of the elite, much like the high-priced Tesla Model S and X. View Gallery 14 Photos At the same time, businesses began to turn to electric trucks. These vehicles cost less to operate and moved faster than horses, and they required less maintenance than internal-combustion models. In 1911, the Detroit Free Press reported that Edison was developing a new battery small enough to fit in a suitcase and powerful enough to run a butcher wagon that could be quick-charged in the time it took to reload the truck. The announcement annoyed W.C. Anderson, builder of the Detroit Electric and Edison's biggest battery customer, who wrote to Edison that the press coverage would hamper sales of current vehicles. Edison denied making any such claim. The "suitcase battery" never emerged. Even so, electric cars rode a surge of popularity: Sales nearly tripled between 1910-1912, though the 6,000 units sold in 1912 were a fraction of the 82,000 Model Ts that Ford sold. Ford-Edison Electric Car Project Though sales were low, EVs seemed promising enough that in 1914, Ford and Edison partnered to develop an experimental electric car—though the partnership may have been more about shoring up Edison's finances, as it involved Ford granting him a low-interest loan of $1.2 million. Public interest in a Ford-Edison electric car was high, though Ford insisted the exercise was purely an experiment. In the end, the prototypes were disappointing and the project was quietly killed around 1917. The partnership was also tasked with developing an electric starting system for the Model T, but Ford engineers found Edison's nickel-iron batteries couldn't develop sufficient power in cold weather. When the Model T finally offered electric starting in 1919, it used a lead-acid battery. View Gallery 14 Photos Charles Kettering's Electric Starter Dooms the EV The electric starter, however—invented by Charles Kettering in 1912—largely put an end to the EV's new-found popularity. Self-starting overcame the primary barrier to driving for women, and the integrated electrical system meant drivers no longer needed to manually light acetylene lamps at night. Meanwhile, road paving in rural areas outpaced paving in cities, a factor that favored the gasoline touring car. Even as cheap electricity spread rapidly throughout the West, interest in the electric car faded, and few electric car builders survived past World War I. Detroit Electric was one of the last holdouts, and built its last electric car in 1939. Gas vs Electric: Who will Succeed? A strong economy and growing suburbs made gasoline king for decades. Electric cars saw a small resurgence at the turn of the 21st century, then all went dark for a decade—just like the period from 1900-1910. Now, electrics are back and interest is strong. Will electrics succeed, or will internal combustion once again re-assert its dominance? Perhaps this is the time history finally doesn't repeat itself. For more information about the early history of the electric car, we recommend Taking Charge: The Electric Automobile in America by Michael Brian Schiffler. 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Diesel Throwback Comparison Test: Ford Model T vs. Detroit Electric Model 90 Coupe You’re Wrong About EV Fires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 18 hours ago, trimacar said: The question I’ve never seen answered, if we’re all EV, what do we do with the gasoline produced? Gasoline is a by-product of making, among other things, oils and grease and propane and butane and fuel oil and bitumen, the last being an ingredient of asphalt. We still need those. Where does the gasoline get used? In my Buick. Thing only gets about 10 mpg. Got a big foot. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargoguy Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I can maybe add some factual information to this discussion. Full disclosure, my day job is as a Parts & Service Manager for a FORD dealership. I saw the Global TV news report about the Hyundai owner and was not surprised. So this morning I took a minute to look up the price of replacement batteries for both a 2023 Ford Mach E and a 2023 F150 Lightning. Here are the results: MACH E- part # PJ9Z- 10B759-E - retail price is $50,502.80 - Ford warranty times says 10.8 labor hours to change- which in reality means it's probably about a 12 hour job at least. F150 Lighting- part # NL3Z- 10B750- E- retail price $57,695.68- again warranty time is the same, 10.8 hours. In addition to the battery there are 28 or 35 one-time use bolts to be replaced as well as other miscellaneous hardware. The bolts are $6.85 each. So a quote to replace the battery at retail rate for the MACH E would be $52,206.60 plus tax with our shop rate of 140/hr and the F150 would be $59,447.43 plus taxes. My feelings have changed a bit as to the whole EV space- I believe they do fit a need for some- and the market should be allowed to drive their place in it. The problem comes with governments getting involved and trying to mandate the percentage of EV that the manufacturers must sell/ manufacture. If the market wants it, the market will demand it and create the space for them as a natural 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) i am sure those are dealer prices ?.......if i go buy oil or a battery at the dealer it is several times the price of aftermarket........i am not defending EVs.......i like my diesels.......but i do think the prices will come down ......just like anything else.......i remember the first basic and crappy digital calculators were over a $100........color TV cost as much as a car........so many things ........i bought a motorola tough talker cell phone about 1982 when cell phone were just getting going.....it was $2600. and my cell bills averaged $600. month.....and coverage was horrible lol Edited November 24, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 This Venn Diagram sums up my opinion of the EV transition. Batteries are prohibitively expensive to produce which is a big part of the reason the market voted against EVs a century ago. The same thing will happen now if people are allowed to buy what's best for them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Fargoguy said: I can maybe add some factual information to this discussion. Full disclosure, my day job is as a Parts & Service Manager for a FORD dealership. I saw the Global TV news report about the Hyundai owner and was not surprised. So this morning I took a minute to look up the price of replacement batteries for both a 2023 Ford Mach E and a 2023 F150 Lightning. Here are the results: MACH E- part # PJ9Z- 10B759-E - retail price is $50,502.80 - Ford warranty times says 10.8 labor hours to change- which in reality means it's probably about a 12 hour job at least. F150 Lighting- part # NL3Z- 10B750- E- retail price $57,695.68- again warranty time is the same, 10.8 hours. In addition to the battery there are 28 or 35 one-time use bolts to be replaced as well as other miscellaneous hardware. The bolts are $6.85 each. So a quote to replace the battery at retail rate for the MACH E would be $52,206.60 plus tax with our shop rate of 140/hr and the F150 would be $59,447.43 plus taxes. My feelings have changed a bit as to the whole EV space- I believe they do fit a need for some- and the market should be allowed to drive their place in it. The problem comes with governments getting involved and trying to mandate the percentage of EV that the manufacturers must sell/ manufacture. If the market wants it, the market will demand it and create the space for them as a natural As your comments note, the replacement cost of batteries is prohibitive. So your nice new EV is a dream. What do you think used EV's will be worth at trade in time or on the used car lot when they may only be good for a few more thousand miles before they need a battery? There will be no used car market, just expensive junk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 at the moment........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 in the world picture ......north americans are quite anti EV....[myself included]........and also a fairly small population in the world........many other countries and of higher population and with pro EV attitude......will be happy to forge ahead .......the US is in a bit of a pickle too.....mass consumer nation stubborn to change to more public transit etc......getting low on resources and problematic power grid etc to support EVs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 24, 2023 Author Share Posted November 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Fargoguy said: I can maybe add some factual information to this discussion. Full disclosure, my day job is as a Parts & Service Manager for a FORD dealership. I saw the Global TV news report about the Hyundai owner and was not surprised. So this morning I took a minute to look up the price of replacement batteries for both a 2023 Ford Mach E and a 2023 F150 Lightning. Here are the results: MACH E- part # PJ9Z- 10B759-E - retail price is $50,502.80 - Ford warranty times says 10.8 labor hours to change- which in reality means it's probably about a 12 hour job at least. F150 Lighting- part # NL3Z- 10B750- E- retail price $57,695.68- again warranty time is the same, 10.8 hours. In addition to the battery there are 28 or 35 one-time use bolts to be replaced as well as other miscellaneous hardware. The bolts are $6.85 each. So a quote to replace the battery at retail rate for the MACH E would be $52,206.60 plus tax with our shop rate of 140/hr and the F150 would be $59,447.43 plus taxes. My feelings have changed a bit as to the whole EV space- I believe they do fit a need for some- and the market should be allowed to drive their place in it. The problem comes with governments getting involved and trying to mandate the percentage of EV that the manufacturers must sell/ manufacture. If the market wants it, the market will demand it and create the space for them as a natural Thanks for the " from the horse's mouth" information . Sounds like E.V.'s are at least something like a ticking time bomb, from an expense point of view at least. So much for a battery being roughly the equal cost of a new I.C. engine theory. { Unless new engines have REALLY gone up in price } To give these numbers a bit of context , that's only slightly less than the average pre - tax yearly income for Canadian earners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 24, 2023 Author Share Posted November 24, 2023 2 hours ago, arcticbuicks said: i am sure those are dealer prices ?.......if i go buy oil or a battery at the dealer it is several times the price of aftermarket........i am not defending EVs.......i like my diesels.......but i do think the prices will come down ......just like anything else.......i remember the first basic and crappy digital calculators were over a $100........color TV cost as much as a car........so many things ........i bought a motorola tough talker cell phone about 1982 when cell phone were just getting going.....it was $2600. and my cell bills averaged $600. month.....and coverage was horrible lol Where else were you planning to buy a battery from other than the Vehicle dealer ? I really don't think the local parts store is going to be able to help on this one. Most of these batterys tend to be very make and model specific, unlike motor oil, fan belts or spark plugs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) it will be very quick as soon as there are as many as kias on the road ........like anything .......a local parts store wont have lamborghini parts.........but if there was all of a sudden 2 million on the road........there soon would be......and cheap .....right. the transition will be slow.......like from going from horses to cars Edited November 24, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modela28 Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 At the beginning of the auto industry in the last century, I don't believe the government subsidized the automobile in the marketplace. There were hundreds of car manufacturers that failed and many people lost lots of money. The current EV market is being significantly subsidized by the Biden Administration and some state governments with purchasing incentives, money to build charging stations, tax incentives for businesses, etc. When the market is ultimately able to choose, we will really see if EVs will make it or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 True.....in the US....and few other countries.......and as i said ..i believe the US in a pickle with this.......but the world with billions more ppl will forge ahead and many pro EV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 Canada is mixed anti EV and pro EV........i just did several trips to vancouver and dam ! 4 teslas at every street corner........Canada is also building one of the biggest if not the biggest battery plants,has resources and has massive clean hydro we cant even sell what we produce......trouble is electricity cant travel far to US even though some goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeil Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 10 minutes ago, 1912Staver said: Where else were you planning to buy a battery from other than the Vehicle dealer ? I really don't think the local parts store is going to be able to help on this one. Most of these batterys tend to be very make and model specific, unlike motor oil, fan belts or spark plugs. Your local parts store might be able to sell the battery packs to independent repair shops. The batteries won't be stocked like normal inventory as there are too many different applications, but I doubt they will sell to an individual as certification will be the rule. I retired from a major auto manufacturer in 2006, ten years before that, we in engineering became familiar with EV's. We had Hyper Mini's, SUV's and Vans (the government forced us to come up with and create the vehicles). I myself have changed a couple of these battery packs which are not hard to do if they are designed properly for removal. You need a proper battery pack lift jacking tray as the whole thing goes up as a unit, and of course a car lift as well. Looking at my four poster lifts I have at home; I don't think they are wide enough to accommodate the jacking tray and its lift. The jacking tray is a large 4-wheel heavy unit. R&R is 3-4 hrs. <3-4 hrs. R&R ->when I took these to the beach, they became a chick magnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) my young cuzn and his buddies are already playing with EVs.....i cant keep up to them....but they are doing 4 wheel motor teslas......changing battery cells at home ,buy wrecked near new EVs........the little wizards are hot rodding and doing battery swaps and mods.........just like we do with old cars ......and have some nice cars without buying new batteries .......following youtube and EV forums DIY..... they are not negative like us .....and have crossed the country so cheap . meanwhile .....we complain like old guys in the horse days......"i aint buying one of those dang gas jalopies ......there no gas stations around here yet ....and no roads...and a motor is $300 !.......i can feed my horse for $2 for a year.....you seen the cost of one of those contraptions ! ?....nobody can afford one !.....and i hear you gotta change those dumb tyres all the time.......who can afford those too.......dumbest thing too having thin rubber with air.......what happens if a nail pokes one ?.....they did that on purpose so ya gotta buy new ones........aint nothin wrong with solid reliable wheels.......been around for 200 years .......where do think all the gas is gonna come from ?........what about all the people making wagons......and harness......all the stables.........hows that good for the economy....and whatsit gonna cost for roads......thousands of miles.........i tell ya Joe ....crazy...stupid government thinking they can build roads between every town .....and they want to put gravel down......cant even reckon how much gravel that would take.......and just think ....then ya got cars and bicycles and horses.......passin each other a foot apart.........people are gonna get hurt or die !...........never work !........keepin my horse ............you just wait......this will pass and they all be riding again " Edited November 24, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history) 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 Using the "anti-EV" description is a bit of an oversimplification. I'm not interested in EVs for the same reason I don't care much about Toyota Camrys or $1M Supercars: They're just not something that will bring me motoring joy. I wouldn't bother discussing EVs at all if they weren't being forced on us through force-of-law. And unfortunately, these policies make up for being overbearing by being ineffective and wasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 24, 2023 Author Share Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) There is no doubt in my mind E.V.'s will be a big part of the future. Governments at all levels are plowing so much tax payer cash into it how could it possibly fail ? Edited November 24, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeil Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 14 minutes ago, 1912Staver said: There is no doubt in my mind E.V.'s will be a big part of the future. Governments at all levels are plowing so much tax payer cash into it how could it possibly fail ? So much for what our country is supposed to be all about. Freedom and free enterprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 yeah .....we are not free to use asbestos as we please or aerosol spray or r12 freon and lead paint kids toys and kill weeds with pcb's etc ..........as we please 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeil Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 1 hour ago, arcticbuicks said: yeah .....we are not free to use asbestos as we please or aerosol spray or r12 freon and lead paint kids toys and kill weeds with pcb's etc ..........as we please And yet the aviation industry continues to use 100LL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 yes .....im not arguing you .......not fair .....and ships 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalowed Bill Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 With the rest of the industrialized world on a fast track for EV, I say thank god for Tesla that brought us the technology capable of competing with IC, and for the govt's stimulus, early on, which made the high initial costs somewhat more affordable. I'm afraid that we in North America would have been too comfortable sucking every last drop of inexpensive black juice out of the ground, while the rest of the world had chosen a different route. Leaving us woefully behind the EU and China. I don't see anyone taking my car keys away from me in the near future. The choices that we make today are not because of any punitive govt. policy. All the choices that were available to us twenty years ago are still on the table today. The advances in EV technology over the last decade plus just give us more options then we once had. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeil Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said: With the rest of the industrialized world on a fast track for EV, I say thank god for Tesla that brought us the technology capable of competing with IC, and for the govt's stimulus, early on, which made the high initial costs somewhat more affordable. I'm afraid that we in North America would have been too comfortable sucking every last drop of inexpensive black juice out of the ground, while the rest of the world had chosen a different route. Leaving us woefully behind the EU and China. I don't see anyone taking my car keys away from me in the near future. The choices that we make today are not because of any punitive govt. policy. All the choices that were available to us twenty years ago are still on the table today. The advances in EV technology over the last decade plus just give us more options then we once had. { I don't see anyone taking my car keys away from me in the near future. The choices that we make today are not because of any punitive govt. policy. All the choices that were available to us twenty years ago are still on the table today. The advances in EV technology over the last decade plus just give us more options then we once had} _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I respectfully disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 11 hours ago, CarNucopia said: This Venn Diagram sums up my opinion of the EV transition. Batteries are prohibitively expensive to produce which is a big part of the reason the market voted against EVs a century ago. The same thing will happen now if people are allowed to buy what's best for them. This chart on the cost of EV batteries indicates that the cost of batteries is plummeting as technology is developing, just in the last 15 years. Can you say more on why, if a person understands economics, they know that battery costs are fixed at "prohibitively expensive," the same as they were a century ago? https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1272-january-9-2023-electric-vehicle-battery-pack-costs-2022-are-nearly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studeboy Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 There will always be nay sayers and doom predictors. I for one have always been interested in different and interesting things. In the 1940s near my grandparents house in Rochester there were two old ladies who literally drove a Baker electric to church every Sunday. This sparked my interest and i have watched keenly the development of the new electrics. The technology has steam rolled ahead despite cultural resistance. last spring I was finally able to bite the bullet and got a Hyundai kona electric for under 30,000. Best car I have ever owned. I like to tell people it is smarter than I am. A joy to drive. Before you dis them go out and test drive one. There were people who refused to try a computer when a good old typewriter was so much cheaper. Until they actually tried one and discovered spell check and all the other niceties that made writing so much easier. Who today uses a typewriter? Go out and test drive one. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) I rented a twizzler car.. I did not like it.. It was cute . But not a car I would buy any time soon.. Edited November 25, 2023 by nick8086 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, arcticbuicks said: in the world picture ......north americans are quite anti EV....[myself included]........and also a fairly small population in the world........many other countries and of higher population and with pro EV attitude......will be happy to forge ahead .......the US is in a bit of a pickle too.....mass consumer nation stubborn to change to more public transit etc......getting low on resources and problematic power grid etc to support EVs Yes, many other countries of the world are pro EV, most of them, can be driven across with one charge. Personally, I don't like the idea of sitting in a service station for 30 to 60 minutes refueling my EV, not counting having to wait in line if there are many ahead of me. Edited November 25, 2023 by hook left out (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 you and i ....maybe left frustrated.....as the rest of the world is happy to adapt and make it work ? where are you going everyday ....that you need a recharge to make it through a day ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, 1935Packard said: Can you say more on why, if a person understands economics, they know that battery costs are fixed at "prohibitively expensive," the same as they were a century ago? The important signal in cost is not comparing current prices with beginning prices. What is relevant is costs relative to competitive products. A century ago, the cost of an ICE Model T dropped significantly compared to EVs and steam cars, making them uncompetitive. They were just too complex to be manufactured inexpensively. While the chart you provided shows an impressive decline in battery costs, the rate of decline has slowed significantly. The benefit of low hanging fruit from scale has been realized, as you can see from the line flattening. Even with the illustrated decline, EVs are considerably more expensive then comparable ICE cars. They sell thanks to subsidies. Remove the subsidies and sales tank. The policy towards EVs is economically absurd because they started with goal that doesn't measure the progress desired. Policy aims to raise the percent of cars sold that are EVs. What it should be trying to accomplish is increasing the number of miles driven electricity. The scarce resource is batteries. Policy incentivizes passenger cars which spend 22+ hours a day parked instead of, say, urban postal vehicles. An orthodontist driving a Tesla isn't what will move the needle, it's the Amazon delivery van. Yet we squander resources for people to feel good about their green appearance. I'm not anti-EV. I test drove a GM EV-1 back in 1999 because I was curious what they offered. I'm anti EV policy because it is wasteful and ineffective. Edited November 25, 2023 by CarNucopia (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 1 hour ago, hook said: Yes, many other countries of the world are pro EV, most of them, can be driven across with one charge. It’s other countries’ governments that are pro EV, not its citizens. While China is the EV leader, they are building 6 times as many coal burning plants as the rest of the world combined. Their interest in EVs isn’t to make the world better, its to surpass the West as the industrial top dog. Why on earth would we want to take our cues from a country is essentially a dictatorship? They want EVs because they have natural resources they give them a competitive advantage in an EV mobilized society. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 Here is the book to read for the early days when Connecticut was the center of automotive development. I know I have read my copy at least four times over the years. https://www.abebooks.com/Horseless-Carriage-Days-Maxim-Hiram-Percy/31654192899/bd 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 8 hours ago, 1935Packard said: This chart on the cost of EV batteries indicates that the cost of batteries is plummeting as technology is developing, just in the last 15 years. Note that the chart referenced above is based on the output of an Excel-based model. As such, the chart should be taken with a grain of salt. Different input assumptions and constraints can produce a different result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) 2023-06-18_12-41-46 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr 2023-06-18_12-41-39 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr Maybe to get this back closer to talking about antiques? This guy attends a local cars n coffee. Had the oppurtunity to talk with him about it a couple of weeks ago. He used 2 fork lift motors, battery out of some kind of chrysler product, and some kind of transmission I have never heard of but my son says its pretty expensive and race guys use them. Guy said it takes a few hours for a charge, runs super fast if he wants to and gets about 80 miles to a full charge. To me its def. about 'what I can do' as opposed to making something that is useful. But then again arent all hot rods? I have a good friend approaching a years ownership with a tesla and he loves it. He said he would buy another one in a minute if need be. He recently took a week trip to the south and back and said he had a little 'charging anxiety' but overall no problems. I try to talk to the actual owners of ev's as opposed to opinions from speculators. Moms neighbor has a mustang ev along with a lightning. Said the truck has a lot more power than the mustang. Also said he loves both of them. BUT is someone that spends a kings ransome on a new car going to say they hate it? Edited November 25, 2023 by TAKerry (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 There are companies now converting high dollar classics to EV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 25, 2023 Author Share Posted November 25, 2023 (edited) Conversions for sure, but not so sure about the " high dollar " part. I guess it depends on what you call "high dollar " . Those conversions generally end up being quite expensive. It's hard to see just what the owners are trying to achive with such conversions. Just to say it can be done ? I think we all know that if you throw enough $ into the mix almost anything can be done . Save on gas costs ? The typical $50 K plus conversion cost buys a lot of gas, even out here on Canada's West coast. But I have yet to see any conversions done on what I would call a " high dollar classic " . 1930 Packard Touring ? Auburn boat tail ? Aston Martin DB4 ? { the Aston of course isn't actually a Classic ,only 1927 - 1939 Aston's are on the list. } But they fit the " high dollar " part . Edited November 25, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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