A/C Conversion

[Deadpurpledog]

Need to change from R12 to 134A.  System in my 67 Riviera works but ancient.  Can’t find appropriate supplier on line.  If you can, please send me in the right direction.  Thank you!  Also. . . Please share any meaningful information.

[NTX5467]

Purge system of ALL R-12 and R-12 oil.  Get a rebuilt POA calibrated for R-134a, not the flaky "POA Eliminator Kit".  Start at 80% of the charge of R-12 gas, then work up to the charge level with the lowest vent temps, which is usually about 90% of the R-12 charge.  Use R-134a oil only.  A R-134a system is more sensitive to "too much gas" than an R-12 system.

 

These are general guidelines,

NTX5467

[telriv]

IF your system is all original the 134 will have a higher tendency to leak as the molecules are smaller than 12's.

AND, to work properly the condenser & evaporator are different designs

134 doesn't cool as well as 12.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

[TexRiv_63]

Vintage Air.

[Deadpurpledog]

Thanks.  Thought they were after market installations   Will give them a try.

[RivNut]

Converting to Vintage air is complete replacement of ALL of the original a/c components and installing everything new.  Adapting the existing system to R134 is a matter of replacing a couple of components, evacuating all the old R12 refrigerant, and refilling with the new R134.  

[60FlatTop]

15 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

System in my 67 Riviera works but ancient.

What does that mean?

[bob71GS]

4 hours ago, telriv said:

IF your system is all original the 134 will have a higher tendency to leak as the molecules are smaller than 12's.

AND, to work properly the condenser & evaporator are different designs

134 doesn't cool as well as 12.

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom T.

 

I have to agree 100% with Tom T. 134 will never get as cold as a fully functioning R-12 system. That has been proven beyond a doubt. 

 

Robert Bonto 

 

 

[RivNut]

The R134 may not get as cold as the R12 but you’re not trying to keep hanging meat from spoiling.  All of my newer cars and my 1990 Rivera, which has been converted to R134, get plenty cool to keep me comfortable.

[Deadpurpledog]

Thanks RivNut.  Visited their website and could not find a comprehensive “replacement”.  Sorry but I like driving it and appreciating the design. . . Yet farthest from being a mechanic.  Do I need to get a comprehensive list of parts and order them individually?

[RivNut]

https://www.vintageair.com/surefit/?subcat1=Control Panel Conversion Kits&subcat2=Gen IV SureFit

 

This Sure Fit system is basically everything you’ll need because there is no specific kit for the Riviera.  You remove EVERYTHING under the dash and in the engine compartment and replace them with this kit.  You’ll need to fabricate a new panel for the firewall to cover the holes you’ll expose. This is a job for a qualified technician, it’s not a DIY job.   Retrofitting the pieces to convert your original system to a Vintage Air system should be done by a technician who has the equipment to evacuate the system before recharging it. 
 

Do a search on this forum using Vintage Air as your key words.  I’m sure you’ll find a couple of article with pictures.  

[RivNut]

Check out this one

 

 

[XframeFX]

21 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

System in my 67 Riviera works but ancient.

So you have a complete system. It can't be as ancient as my '63 which I intent to make functional with components from oldair.com.

 

Vintage Air, I don't get it. The one time I talked to a Representative at a car meet booth, he would not acknowledge my OE system. Talk was a about installing their complete product at the expenses of my original system.

Vintage Air might be the route for cars that never had AC from new. 

[tenugent]

2 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

Thanks RivNut.  Visited their website and could not find a comprehensive “replacement”.  Sorry but I like driving it and appreciating the design. . . Yet farthest from being a mechanic.  Do I need to get a comprehensive list of parts and order them individually?

I'm no mechanic and installed a gen 4 vintage air system in my 63 last year.They do not make a kit for our cars but will work with you when called.I used there slide controls hooked up to my originals and nothing was changed in the interior.It also has it's own heater core in the evaporator unit.Wasnt that hard after following previous builds Ed has supplied and help from Bulldogdriver.

[Deadpurpledog]

That’s promising!  Thanks & I’ll let you know how it turns out, tenugent.

[1965rivgs]

6 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

That’s promising!  Thanks & I’ll let you know how it turns out, tenugent.

  Judging by the information you volunteered in your posts, you should take your car to a qualified mechanic with the proper equipment and tools and have them substitute R134 for the original R12.

  Converting the refrigerant can be done by using standard evacuating/charging procedures.

  If your system is in tact and in servicable condition, You do not need to change hoses, o rings, flush out the mineral based R12 oil, etc, to get the system operating and evaluate its performance.

  Do be sure the tech adds the appropriate volume of R134 compatible oil to the system and I would also suggest the addition of dye for any future troubleshooting for leaks. Refrigerant oil is available with the dye already added, which is what I use, or the dye can be added independently.

  Keep in mind ANY AC system which has been idle for an extended period of time will more than likely have issues which will become apparent when putting it back into service, so it may take more than one attempt to get things "right"....but that fact is not necessarily dependent on refrigerant type.

  The last thing you should consider if your system is in tact, is ripping out the AC system which was engineered for your car and replacing it with a universal kit. There is no ultimate cost advantage after adding up the initial cost of the universal kit and the cost of labor for installation... and to be honest, every universal system installation I have inspected, especially by weekend warriors, looks like a hack job compared to the factory system.

Tom Mooney

 

[RivNut]

10 hours ago, tenugent said:

I'm no mechanic and installed a gen 4 vintage air system in my 63 last year.They do not make a kit for our cars but will work with you when called.I used there slide controls hooked up to my originals and nothing was changed in the interior.It also has it's own heater core in the evaporator unit.Wasnt that hard after following previous builds Ed has supplied and help from Bulldogdriver.

Tim,

Don’t seem yourself short.  You’re s damn good mechanic; I’ve seen your work. You may not have made it a profession, but you’re good. Good enough to take on installing a Vintage Air system when most of us would either suffer from the heat or empty our pockets to pay someone else. 

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:26 PM, Deadpurpledog said:

Need to change from R12 to 134A.  System in my 67 Riviera works but ancient.  Can’t find appropriate supplier on line.  If you can, please send me in the right direction.  Thank you!  Also. . . Please share any meaningful information.

I sourced parts from a company called Old Air Products a few years back. Looking just now see they still have a web site. May be worth a try.  If you can keep it original and get it working would be ideal. 
 

From what I have read here there are still sources of R12 available if that’s an option. Others may chime in.

Good luck

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

[BulldogDriver]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:21 AM, RivNut said:

Tim,

Don’t seem yourself short.  You’re s damn good mechanic; I’ve seen your work. You may not have made it a profession, but you’re good. Good enough to take on installing a Vintage Air system when most of us would either suffer from the heat or empty our pockets to pay someone else. 

I installed a Vintage Air in my car and yes it is a bit of a challenge to fit it up tight inside, some minor cutting in the center area, and making some extensions for the floor vents, it is very doable using VA’s Gen4 evaporator unit. I think anyone that is up to doing their own work on a car can do this. I had the luxury of being able to do the firewall stuff without working around the engine, mine was out for other work, but others have done this with engine in place. I think one of the nicest things is to be able to use the original controls on my 63 car. 
 

The biggest downside for me was losing about an inch of space for the radio and that eliminated the use of the original unit. I have discussed this in other threads.  The VA seems to put out plenty of cold air. I’ve had it keep the inside tolerable in 90* plus with the windows down this summer. The thing with converting a R12 to R134 is one unit is made for a particular type of gas and changing over to another will diminish performance. My original AC looked to be rebuildable but once I got into the job it was going to be a lot like what Turbinator Bob went through.
 

So a conversion was looked into. As we are seeing with something as simple as getting an air filter has become impossible and any replacement part questionable as to their reliability will be even more so in the future. My decision to go this route was a matter of reliability and access to parts in the future. The VA conversion has been the least troublesome thing done so far on this car. Installed/charged and has worked fine since. Can’t  say that about the other things that I’ve done. 
 

I’ve got a good car but it is at best a driver and really doesn’t deplete the gene pool of all the strong original cars out there. It looks original inside and out until you open the hood.

 

Ray

[Turbinator]

If your ancient system works why change? R12 is available and there are mechanics that still have equipment to work on R12.

 

I have a 63 Riv and stayed with R12. There were some work arounds because some of the original parts are no longer manufactured.I figured a system designed by Buick that does work would be easier to get up and running than me doing  an installation with an aftermarket kit.

Most of the fun is getting these old cars to run the way they are suppose to.

R12 can be found at reasonable prices, but you have to look all over to find R12. Or get connected with an R12 supplier.

Best of luck.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:55 PM, BulldogDriver said:

was going to be a lot like what Turbinator Bob went through.

Ray, it was a pain. Not many will admit they do not know what they are doing on some of the repairs on these cars. I don’t mind True Confession I am not trained nor had any experience on mobile AC. One of my pals ( not knowing he was insulting) said, “ Bob, when you work on something it usually gets worse before it gets better.” I won’t argue the truth. 
I did learn quite a bit working on the AC in my 63. I’m not highly competent, but experienced enough to do functional tests as outlined in the service manual. Had I more information I just might have gone the AC aftermarket way. But, a known to work system was already in place.

Here is on of my study and cheat charts I used to get the vacuum hoses to the right place. Made a copy then color inked the hoses for they go.

 

[mvmautorossa]

I agree with you about trying to keep our old cars original if possible.  And also with the comments that an original R12 system will cool more efficiently than a converted to R134 system.  So to try to keep using R12, if possible, who are you using to supply your R12?  Thanks,

 

Bob

[Deadpurpledog]

Funny thing happened on my way to the. . .  Original A/C is working & we’re waiting to find the leak.  Bigger news is. .  .is there an honest person out there selling classic cars?  This one looks new, yet I’m in about 10 g’s and still need to replace the main seal and another.  Still happy about the decision. . .but this hobby isn’t for the non-mechanics, weak kneed or poor.

[pfloro]

8 minutes ago, Deadpurpledog said:

 .is there an honest person out there selling classic cars?

Harwood Motors   Matt and Melanie are first class & honest...

 

Paul

[60FlatTop]

Maybe there re two kinds of old car hobbyists, those with extra cars for toys. Ones whom don't realize how wealthy they are. And those that aren't as wealthy as they thought.

 

I always wonder about the origin of "That's not going to be cheap". Appears some assumptions were made before hand.

[Deadpurpledog]

Certainly those and perhaps many, many more 60Flattop.

[EmTee]

18 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

Original A/C is working & we’re waiting to find the leak.

How did you manage that - just added R-12?  The original system in my '67 still functions, but does have a slow leak.  I added some R-12 about a year ago and I do notice some bubbles in the sight glass again.  I suspect mine is leaking at the front compressor seal based on oil residue I see.  I'm content to nurse it along for now, as here in upstate NY there are typically only a few weeks where the A/C is really appreciated anyway...

[PaulMuzz]

we had our local car show and a vintage mechanic shop locally quoted me over 8 thousand to install a vintage air in my 64.  (Today I have no AC which in Sacramento is an issue in the summer).  That is too much for my budget.  I believe the units are a few thousand so I'd definitely go the route of self install if you are mechanically inclined.  I have 2 years of auto shop training from high school and 10 years working on my first car (68 Camaro) so I may take the plunge.  Overall agree if you have a system in place and can upgrade, go with that first.  If that doesnt work out, you can alway go the after-market route.  Good luck!

[Deadpurpledog]

Certainly those and perhaps many, many more 60Flattop.

[Deadpurpledog]

8 g’s!  Sounds as though they didn’t want to do the work, Paul.  Mine is cold then after a couple of months cool.  Not good enough during summer in Las Vegas!  Perhaps a project for you 6-7 cooler months?

[NTX5467]

If you buy an older car, no matter where, you can generally presume you'll have to spend some money on it as things progress.  Upgrading the rear main oil seal can be one.  If it's not too bad, get a big piece of cardboard to park over, if worse, a flat baking pan.

 

In "high estimates", always ask what their labor rate might be.  Then you can judge the time they expect to spend on the project, PLUS if they have done it before (which can go either way).  They will usually mark up the parts price from what you find online, too.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Turbinator]

On 9/5/2023 at 8:11 AM, mvmautorossa said:

I agree with you about trying to keep our old cars original if possible.  And also with the comments that an original R12 system will cool more efficiently than a converted to R134 system.  So to try to keep using R12, if possible, who are you using to supply your R12?  Thanks,

 

Bob

Initially, it was eBay. Then I found about 28lbs in a 30lb canister for $250.00 on Craig’s List.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 9/6/2023 at 7:58 PM, NTX5467 said:

They will usually mark up the parts price from what you find online, too.

 

All that and then some. There are unscrupulous rascals out there that fleeced me good and proper. As I get a little I think people will tell the truth. Most people give it to you straight. 
Joining local clubs and asking around who is good and be trusted. They are there and not really far and few between. You do have to dig through computer searches to find the Diamond in the rough. I was and still am serious about my 63 running condition. I was able to have a mechanic travel A long distance and stay at my home while we worked on my car. Of course, he was paid for his work. About 120 hours or so over 3 one week periods. The cost was measurable, but about a 1/3 what I would have paid a garage. AND I was told if I didn’t help the cost would have been lower.

[Turbinator]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:38 PM, PaulMuzz said:

so I may take the plunge

Paul, depending on your confidence level and real skills I suppose a DIY guy can install an aftermarket AC.

I found mobile AC not only scientific it’s an art to bring all the components together to get cold air. Something as simple as putting O rings in you don’t tighten them so much you mash them flat. I could go on, but for me my mistakes aren’t as funny as they once were. For eight grand cost avoidance is certainly a good thing to do.

You can do it.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:11 AM, EmTee said:

How did you manage that - just added R-12?  The original system in my '67 still functions, but does have a slow leak.  I added some R-12 about a year ago and I do notice some bubbles in the sight glass again.  I suspect mine is leaking at the front compressor seal based on oil residue I see.  I'm content to nurse it along for now, as here in upstate NY there are typically only a few weeks where the A/C is really appreciated anyway...

Yep. Had a leak at the same place on my aftermarket condenser. Took my original condenser off the shelf and reinstalled it.