Unusal wheel setup - car in Victoria, Australia - twenties era

[John E. Guitar]

https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/58cbb9f4d0cec725b444f000

 

Any ID on the car or wheels?

[sagefinds]

I wonder if that might be sort of a friction drive thing instead of a clutch or planetary engagement.

[Gunsmoke]

can't see any helpful engineering theory in this one. as the steel cross turns clockwise, the 4 smaller wheels turn counter-clockwise, causing the outer rim to run clockwise. Seems like a lot of moving parts when a dozen solid spokes will do the same job. Not every idea is a good one!

[3macboys]

8 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

as the steel cross turns clockwise, the 4 smaller wheels turn counter-clockwise

It looks like the 4 smaller wheels are all touching one another, it that is the case would they not all just lock up and be a single rotating mass?  The only advantage that I can see is no bent/broken spokes but that is also coming from someone who is most definitely not an engineer.

 

Don 

[dustycrusty]

The original version of these!

[Layden B]

Note the hard rubber tire that contacts the ground. I suspect that this 4 inner wheel arrangement did not revolve but rotated as a unit as was suggested and was intended to be a shock absorber. Replacing the pneumatic tire with hard rubber was attractive in the days when punctures and tire cuts were commonplace.

As for the car, details hint at a European origin.

[Oldtech]

I don't see the engineering here. Doesn't look like it would drive. How about for towing?  But why?

[JACK M]

15 hours ago, Oldtech said:

Doesn't look like it would drive.

That was my first thought.

[lump]

I'm definitely no engineer. But it looks to me that, if those four small inner wheels are indeed touching, then each one would have to rotate in the opposite direction, right? But if that is true, then how could they drive the outer wheel in any direction? 

 

Maybe two of the small wheels at a time were intended to be moved in or out to be thus disengaged, and that would determine which direction the outer wheel would turn? 

 

Ok, I'm stumped. 

[roysboystoys]

Maybe the small " Wheels" don't turn , just there for support.????

[Mark Gregush]

If you enlarge the photo and look closely, the smaller wheels are locked into place by the casting of the outer rim. They don't rotate. 

[Stude17]

If the four inner wheels don't rotate then it appears to me that the inventor wasted a whole lot of time and money for no good purpose.

[Mark Gregush]

If the wheels are rubber, they in theory would act as shock absorbers. If you look just behind and down from the tail pipe, you can just see the casting going around the small wheel along with the fillet that looks to be part of the rib around the inside center of the rim. If you scroll down this link you will see some of the oddball spring loaded wheels sold for the Model T Ford. Model T Ford Forum: Show us your accessory wheels (mtfca.com)

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mark Gregush (see edit history)

[8E45E]

A speed governor?   

 

The inner wheels remain locked into position by contacting one another so they don't turn, but when the outer wheel expands from centrifugal force, the inner wheels spread apart from each other, and unlock from themselves and start to rotate within the outer wheel, thus slowing the speed of the vehicle down.

 

Craig

Edited November 9, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

I guess none of you have ever rebuilt an automatic transmission. This is a planetary gear set. The small wheels don't touch each other, they ride on the fixed axle housing on the inboard side and the inside of the rim on the outboard side. The fixed axle housing is the sun gear, the small wheels are the planet gears, and the large wheel is the ring gear. This provides a significant gear reduction on the outer wheel.

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

I guess none of you have ever rebuilt an automatic transmission. This is a planetary gear set. The small wheels don't touch each other, they ride on the fixed axle housing on the inboard side and the inside of the rim on the outboard side. The fixed axle housing is the sun gear, the small wheels are the planet gears, and the large wheel is the ring gear. This provides a significant gear reduction on the outer wheel.

 

OK, so how does that work on the vehicle?  If the planetary gear carrier is attached to the axle does the car have movement?  I do not think the car would move.

 

What else could be attached to the axle and how would it work?

[joe_padavano]

6 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

OK, so how does that work on the vehicle?  If the planetary gear carrier is attached to the axle does the car have movement?  I do not think the car would move.

 

What else could be attached to the axle and how would it work?

The axle housing where the small tires ride on the inboard side is the sun gear. It is fixed. The cruciform that holds the four small wheels is turned by the axle shaft. This drives the outer wheel.

 

https://www.tec-science.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/en-planetary-gear-fixed-sun.mp4

[Oldtech]

Well... looking at the picture it appears the axle drives on the planets. If that were the case it would give you a serious overdrive. 

[Gunsmoke]

So as I understand the principles here (thanks Joe P) the steel heavy 4 spoke cross piece shown is fixed to the vehicle and does not move, but simply acts as a rigid pivot at each end for the 4 planetary (small) wheels. Those 4 wheels (that do not touch each other) are being turned by a "sun gear" (driven by differential axles) that is turning in a clockwise direction (on passenger side) and thereby turns the planetary (small) wheels in a counter clockwise direction. The planetary wheels then turn ring gear (outer wheel) in clockwise direction (forward) on passenger side (by friction I assume). Rotation of sun gear on driver side is in opposite directions, resulting in that wheel also going forward. All of this is a fine explanation. However, why would anyone cobble such a mechanism together. Gear reduction can be easily accommodated in the differential itself, and it seems redundant or "Rube Goldberg" to try to achieve it in such a cumbersome way?

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

So as I understand the principles here (thanks Joe P) the steel heavy 4 spoke cross piece shown is fixed to the vehicle and does not move,

There are four different ways that a planetary gearset can operate. That's why they are used in automatic transmissions. The video in the link I posted above shows the function with the sun gear held stationary and the planet gears and carrier (the four-legged cross piece) rotating. The video in the link below shows how all four variations work.

 

https://www.tec-science.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/en-planetary-gear-operation-modi.mp4

Edited November 9, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[JACK M]

But what kind of car?

Stumped?

[Stude17]

Is anyone familiar with this rear end drive?  Perhaps it does not have an internal "differential" mechanism and the setup on the wheels provide the ability to turn corners.

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks Joe P for the additional clip, so you suspect a fixed sun gear, with the steel cross being turned by the axle/differential assembly, causing the planetary wheels to turn the outer wheel. The remaining question is why do it this way? 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

Thanks Joe P for the additional clip, so you suspect a fixed sun gear, with the steel cross being turned by the axle/differential assembly, causing the planetary wheels to turn the outer wheel. The remaining question is why do it this way? 

I assume for the gear reduction. There are heavy duty truck axles sold with a similar planetary gear set in the hub. As for the car in the original photo, it's actually being used as a horse-drawn carriage, so whatever purpose the wheel design served is apparently moot.

[sagefinds]

All supposition to this point since we can't get an upclose look.. It's up against a fence in front,no room for a horse to pull it up there. Looks like the right front wheel is off for repair or something. We really can't tell if the little wheels have any slack to move or not but I think they do. At this point,I think centrifical force throws them out where they tighten against the outer rim and propel the thing,whatever it is. Probably not used much for mid-bogging.

 

[Stude17]

The more I look at this photo and in particular the odd construction of the wheels I get the feeling that I am overthinking what I am seeing.  I now have a strong feeling that the wheels are nothing more than a resourceful farmer cobbling together various unknown items to use as wheels to keep the remains of an old motor vehicle in use as a trailer or cart and in all probability pulled by a horse. It also looks to me that the rear end has been "reversed and the internals removed and is now nothing more than a "solid axle".  Also the "fuel tank" looks extra large and doesn't appear to be a petrol tank to me (possibly a water tank).  I cannot see an engine either.  Just my thoughts.

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, sagefinds said:

All supposition to this point since we can't get an upclose look.. It's up against a fence in front,no room for a horse to pull it up there. Looks like the right front wheel is off for repair or something. We really can't tell if the little wheels have any slack to move or not but I think they do. At this point,I think centrifical force throws them out where they tighten against the outer rim and propel the thing,whatever it is. Probably not used much for mid-bogging.

 

I'm just reading the description from the link in the first post:

 

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks again Joe P, I think you have it figured out as an early design aimed at providing gear reduction, perhaps a case of an aftermarket (or factory option) bit of gear you could adapt to your existing vehicle to turn a light duty vehicle to a heavy hauler. That at least makes sense. Certainly not some backyard "cobble together" item, a great deal of thought, expertise and effort needed to produce a set of these.

[Mark Gregush]

Click on the image to enlarge. 

[John E. Guitar]

I don't think the car is missing the front wheels. If you look at the image on the original website I think you can see part of the driver side front wheel (RHD car). Perhaps the person who wrote the description mistook the speedometer cable for part of a tow line or horse reins.

 

The photo looks like it has been framed to show both sides of the wheel, i.e. it is a photograph of the wheel design and not the car as a whole.

 

The smaller wheels remind me of a Lord Dynaflex coupling. I wonder if the rubber elements are bonded to a steel ring along the circumference?

[keiser31]

15 minutes ago, Jorge Amado said:

I don't think the car is missing the front wheels. If you look at the image on the original website I think you can see part of the driver side front wheel (RHD car). Perhaps the person who wrote the description mistook the speedometer cable for part of a tow line or horse reins.

 

The photo looks like it has been framed to show both sides of the wheel, i.e. it is a photograph of the wheel design and not the car as a whole.

 

The smaller wheels remind me of a Lord Dynaflex coupling. I wonder if the rubber elements are bonded to a steel ring along the circumference?

I can see that the front wheel is turned to the left and you can make out the front edge of the right wheel/tire in the photo.

[roysboystoys]

I wonder if the registration/plate can be traced to type of auto?

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

I can see that the front wheel is turned to the left and you can make out the front edge of the right wheel/tire in the photo.

I'm not sure I can see the wheel, but I can see that the front axle is in place, so I suspect the caption on the photo may be incorrect. More to the point, note the use of 3/4 elliptic springs at both ends. I'm guessing that may narrow down the possibilities. Also note that this photo was from a site with a .au URL, so it may be an Australian car.

EDIT: It's also RHD. You can see the steering arm and drag link.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)