Can Anyone Tell Me Anything About This Pierce Arrow Straight Eight?

[karguy12]

Trying to identify this specific Pierce Arrow engine. I have googled the casting number and came up with nothing. Perhaps I am not reading it correctly. It is supposed to be a 1930 motor and has a date casting of K-8-5.  I am considering rebuilding it and am wanting to look up parts prices and availability, but I want to make sure I am seeking out the correct parts. It is missing the distributor and all four carbs. It has a custom 4 carb intake on it.  

[Grimy]

The engine number, 227460, identifies it as from a 1931 model 43, 3.5 bore x 4.75 stroke for 366 cid.  Block castings were the same for several years, but the engine numbers were changed year to year to permit us to identify the year, model, and displacement.

 

That engine originally used a Stromberg UUR-2 updraft 2-barrel carb, and I can't even hazard a guess as to which carburetors were used in that modification.

[1937hd45]

Can you post a photo of the intake manifold? 

 

Bob 

[karguy12]

2 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Can you post a photo of the intake manifold? 

 

Bob 

 

[alsancle]

Have you been able to find any additional history on the car?  

 

 

[karguy12]

Some. Nothing concrete. Haven't been looking in years. But I've closed down my business and retired so now I am wanting to take on this project. Still offering the $1,000 reward to anyone who can prove who built it. But in the mean time I am going to start the restoration and document it on its own Youtube channel step by step, including the fabrication of the plastic body in the original manner.  

Edited August 13, 2022 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

The Pierce 366 cu in engine has many parts interchangeable with the 1929-33 Studebaker President 337 cu in engine (3.5" bore x 3.375" stroke), though even those parts may be hard to find now.  The four-carb setup is a bit like Studebaker used for the 1932-33 Indy cars but Studebaker had vacuum balance tubes between the four inlets.  The Indy cars used Winfield or Stromberg EX-32 carbs.

 

It might be easier to make the new body from aluminum.  You have enough pieces to transfer dimensions to a new wire form.  

 

Studebaker 337 cu in engine in the #37 Indy car with four Stromberg EX-32 carbs and copper vacuum balance tubes.

[1937hd45]

25 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Have you been able to find any additional history on the car?  

 

 

Thanks AJ, I knew the engine was from that car!

 

Bob 

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

The engine number, 227460, identifies it as from a 1931 model 43, 3.5 bore x 4.75 stroke for 366 cid.  Block castings were the same for several years, but the engine numbers were changed year to year to permit us to identify the year, model, and displacement.

 

That engine originally used a Stromberg UUR-2 updraft 2-barrel carb, and I can't even hazard a guess as to which carburetors were used in that modification.

I believe the Model 43 366 was the only Pierce eight with timings gears, not chain….interesting that engine would be picked, as there was a larger eight engine produced in 1931….having adjusted four carbs on a Corsair, it’s hard to imagine how much fun that is to do on a straight eight!

[karguy12]

54 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

The Pierce 366 cu in engine has many parts interchangeable with the 1929-33 Studebaker President 337 cu in engine (3.5" bore x 3.375" stroke), though even those parts may be hard to find now.  The four-carb setup is a bit like Studebaker used for the 1932-33 Indy cars but Studebaker had vacuum balance tubes between the four inlets.  The Indy cars used Winfield or Stromberg EX-32 carbs.

 

It might be easier to make the new body from aluminum.  You have enough pieces to transfer dimensions to a new wire form.  

 

Studebaker 337 cu in engine in the #37 Indy car with four Stromberg EX-32 carbs and copper vacuum balance tubes.

Interesting set up. Looks familiar. The body was originally plastic. Perhaps the first plastic car.  I can't find any earlier. So I am going to replicate the original process using more modern materials. 

[alsancle]

How did you find out it was plastic?

[karguy12]

24 minutes ago, alsancle said:

How did you find out it was plastic?

It is still on the car in several places.

 

[karguy12]

So, back to the mechanical rebuild questions. What distributor would I need for this engine and who sells gasket sets or rebuild parts?

[edinmass]

The car uses the small Pierce distributor. Because it has timing gears it turns in a different direction and it has a different firing order from the other motors. Trying to run for carburetors on it is going to be difficult because whatever was on there I’m sure never ran right. It was massively over carbureted. That said a factory intake and exhaust manifold would be fairly expensive, along with the correct carburetor. Pistons, valves, and a few other parts are available. It’s a fairly simple engine with an expensive engine to rebuild. The nine mean bearing crank in the eight connecting rods in total will probably run $6000 for bearings. That doesn’t include the cam bearings, which are probably another two grand. Pistons with rings and wrist pins figure $350 a hole. I’m sure I have a distributor for it. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Studemax]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

 

Oh, dear god! That thing again. I first looked at this monstrosity nearly 20 years ago. It's been on American Pickers. Multiple magazines and websites have done features on it, trying to find any real history on the beast. In 20 years, there has been no proof, zip, nada, nothing but conjecture and BS. Lots of speed historians have tried to confirm how it came to exist. There is nothing. This is someone's pipe dream that went up in smoke before it turned a tire in anger. 

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, karguy12 said:

So, back to the mechanical rebuild questions. What distributor would I need for this engine and who sells gasket sets or rebuild parts?

 

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

The car uses the small Pierce distributor. Because it has timing gears it turns in a different direction and it has a different firing order from the other motors. Trying to run for carburetors on it is going to be difficult because whatever was on there I’m sure never ran right. It was massively over carbureted. That said a factory intake and exhaust manifold would be fairly expensive, along with the correct carburetor. Pistons, valves, and a few other parts are available. It’s a fairly simple engine with an expensive engine to rebuild. The nine mean bearing crank in the eight connecting rods in total will probably run $6000 for bearings. That doesn’t include the cam bearings, which are probably another two grand. Pistons with rings and wrist pins figure $350 a hole. I’m sure I have a distributor for it. 

The 1931 model 43 takes a Delco 660-P distributor.  The larger series 41 & 42 use the Delco 668-E (also all 1929s and 1930 models A&B, but the caps for 668-E are generally unobtanium--the Pierce-Arrow Society did a run a few years ago and promptly sold out, including one to me 🙂  You may be able to use a Delco 662-J found on Pierce 8s 1933-36.

 

Gaskets are easy--Olsons.  I've bought stainless valves from Egge, and they were on the shelf there.  Be sure to test the valve spring pressure, but an easy solution is that Chev 350 valve spring shims work very well on Pierce 8s.

[karguy12]

6 hours ago, Grimy said:

 

The 1931 model 43 takes a Delco 660-P distributor.  The larger series 41 & 42 use the Delco 668-E (also all 1929s and 1930 models A&B, but the caps for 668-E are generally unobtanium--the Pierce-Arrow Society did a run a few years ago and promptly sold out, including one to me 🙂  You may be able to use a Delco 662-J found on Pierce 8s 1933-36.

 

Gaskets are easy--Olsons.  I've bought stainless valves from Egge, and they were on the shelf there.  Be sure to test the valve spring pressure, but an easy solution is that Chev 350 valve spring shims work very well on Pierce 8s.

Thank you sir. Appreciate the fine on point information. 
Does anybody have one of these distributors for sale? 
  

[karguy12]

8 hours ago, Studemax said:

Oh, dear god! That thing again. I first looked at this monstrosity nearly 20 years ago. It's been on American Pickers. Multiple magazines and websites have done features on it, trying to find any real history on the beast. In 20 years, there has been no proof, zip, nada, nothing but conjecture and BS. Lots of speed historians have tried to confirm how it came to exist. There is nothing. This is someone's pipe dream that went up in smoke before it turned a tire in anger. 

"This is someone's pipe dream that went up in smoke before it turned a tire in anger."  

More conjecture and BS?  lol  Are you saying the car burned? What facts do you base your opinion on? I only showed photos of the engine for the main purpose of keeping opinions like this out of my thread. You can always count on somebody to post the hate. I'm bringing the car back to life.  

[alsancle]

I'm not a mechanic, but have a multi-carb prewar engine like yours.   I would suggest jetting down those carburetors quite a bit,  and adding balancing tubes between the intakes.  You will have a much better shot at making it run.    Some of the other guys can probably give better advice.

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, karguy12 said:

"This is someone's pipe dream that went up in smoke before it turned a tire in anger."  

More conjecture and BS?  lol  Are you saying the car burned? What facts do you base your opinion on? I only showed photos of the engine for the main purpose of keeping opinions like this out of my thread. You can always count on somebody to post the hate. I'm bringing the car back to life.  

 

I think it is great if you can restore it.   It has a pleasant shape and will be pretty cool running.      As long as you stick with your known facts, I think you will find the forum members to be very supportive.   

 

Good luck!

 

[karguy12]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I think it is great if you can restore it.   It has a pleasant shape and will be pretty cool running.      As long as you stick with your known facts, I think you will find the forum members to be very supportive.   

 

Good luck!

 

I've always stuck to fact. In the case of this car, most of those facts are just connections. Like a spider web of information. They lead, they point but they do not come to a precise conclusion. Yet. But I invite anyone to prove me wrong by offering the $1,000 reward for proof of who built it. I'm open to any new information and will track down any lead. But for the next few years, the focus will be to revive the car as-built. 

[trimacar]

C'mon guys, this car was discussed ad nauseum in the past, why don't we stay off the topic of the car itself and try to help the guy get the engine going.

 

As Ed states, Pierce engines are, unfortunately, expensive to rebuild.  I have a rebuilt engine in my Model 43 phaeton, but even with that I have a good spare engine sitting in the corner of my garage (no, not for sale, though if someone needs a 1937 Packard engine I can fix you up!).

 

karguy12, have you joined the Pierce Arrow Society?  If you do, there's a directory of people and companies who make and sell parts for that marque.  Your first task should be to get the engine out of the car, take it apart, and analyze what needs to be done.  Usually rods may need babbitt work (although some people modify them and put inserts in), usually mains are OK unless something unusual has happened, there's a LOT of bearing surface with 9 main bearings.

 

DON'T use pistons from the company out west which sounds like a breakfast food, I'd recommend Arias, a little more expensive but at least they work and they are beautifully made.

 

Second the motion on Olsen's for gaskets.

 

Good luck on the rebuild........as mentioned, have your checkbook ready, good used cars come cheaper than Pierce rebuilds....

[karguy12]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

C'mon guys, this car was discussed ad nauseum in the past, why don't we stay off the topic of the car itself and try to help the guy get the engine going.

 

As Ed states, Pierce engines are, unfortunately, expensive to rebuild.  I have a rebuilt engine in my Model 43 phaeton, but even with that I have a good spare engine sitting in the corner of my garage (no, not for sale, though if someone needs a 1937 Packard engine I can fix you up!).

 

karguy12, have you joined the Pierce Arrow Society?  If you do, there's a directory of people and companies who make and sell parts for that marque.  Your first task should be to get the engine out of the car, take it apart, and analyze what needs to be done.  Usually rods may need babbitt work (although some people modify them and put inserts in), usually mains are OK unless something unusual has happened, there's a LOT of bearing surface with 9 main bearings.

 

DON'T use pistons from the company out west which sounds like a breakfast food, I'd recommend Arias, a little more expensive but at least they work and they are beautifully made.

 

Second the motion on Olsen's for gaskets.

 

Good luck on the rebuild........as mentioned, have your checkbook ready, good used cars come cheaper than Pierce rebuilds....

Again, thank you for the very helpful information. I would buy a running used engine. But I am also interested in seeing if there are any internal modifications to this engine to go with the 4 carbs. Any porting, head shaving, boring, etc. 

Is the exhaust manifold on my engine stock for this model? It does not look like the ones I've seen on 1931 engines. 

I will join the PAS. I have not in the past due to the expectation of more people like Studemax. People that tell me there is no information about my car, then proceed to tell me all about what it is not. 

 

As the restoration proceeds, I will be taking a "forensic" approach to the car, examining and documenting every detail. Hopefully some of the construction details will shed light on its creator. 

I will also be working with a university's design and engineering department to make a clay model for wind tunnel testing to see what the drag coefficiency is to compare with other cars.   


 

Edited August 14, 2022 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[karguy12]

Has anyone seen one of these on a Pierce engine before. Or any engine?  

[edinmass]

Looks like some sort of tach drive off a lathe or piece of farm equipment, could also be used as a gear reduction cable drive for some other item on the car……….pull it off, take it apart, and post photos…….then a much more definitive answer can be given. Popping in almost any 1931-1938 Pierce engine would be fine. There are only a few minor differences and only experts could tell. Bring that particular engine back from the dead is possible, but very expensive. Performance modifications to the engine are very unlikely……..the F head design has huge limitations…….but many home shop builds used them because of displacement. With a bit of effort a 385 big block Pierce engine can make 200 hp……..just add another 50k to the price of the rebuild. Thus figure 80 grand to build a modern hot rod engine that won’t tear itself apart. If your going to try and actually make the thing go down the road buying a barn find complete car is the way to go. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jdome]

My guess is that the photo is of another pump being driven off the water pump and it looks off set indicating gear reduction. Probably oil pump. I don't know if either pump is original to the motor but it would make sense that an auxiliary oil pump was added to this modified engine.

 

The multiple carb set up on your engine was common racing tech of the teens and 20's before the dual carb manifold became in vogue. Probably more carburation than you need but that was the way it was done back in the day. Since each carb is isolated, balancing is fairly easy. Tap a fitting in each manifold so you can connect identical vacuum gauges to each manifold and adjust the carbs for equal vacuum.  After you remove the gauge, instead of plugging the taps, you may want to consider adding a balance or equalizer tube between manifolds.

 

If you can document your car was modified or purpose built for a sanctioned speed event, AACA has a class for those cars. I wish you luck in your search.

 

 

[alsancle]

It is also possible it is a pump for an auxiliary water tank. My car has a tank behind the driver seat, with a lever that allowed colder water back into the coolant flow.

[carbking]

In 1931, four downdraft carburetors would have been Winfields, or D series Strombergs. Another possibility, if the builder were a Nash person, would be Carter W-2's.

 

EDIT: while the tuning of SOME four carb set-ups is not as difficult as it sounds, I personally would NOT like to attempt tuning four of the Winfields or the D series Strombergs.

 

PA used two of the Stromberg E-2 carbs on their 12 in 1932; these were obsoleted in 1933 by the use of Stromberg EX-32's.

 

The E-2's are S.A.E. size 2 mounting (c-c 2 11/16) whereas the EX-32's are S.A.E. size 3 mounting (c-c 2 15/16).

 

Some of the Indy engines (other makes) used four Detroit Lubricator's from 1932 Ford.

 

What you might wish to use for carbs would depend on the period you wish to retro.

 

Jon.

Edited August 14, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

Here is a previous post on the same automobile.

 

 

[1937hd45]

I'm posting this as constructive criticism, why start rebuilding the engine an not the body? The body is the unique part, pouring ten grand or whatever into an engine isn't going to make the vehicle any better. If the engine was totally rebuilt by Labor Day 2022 how long with it take to have the chassis and body ready for the first break in run? 

[karguy12]

6 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I'm posting this as constructive criticism, why start rebuilding the engine an not the body? The body is the unique part, pouring ten grand or whatever into an engine isn't going to make the vehicle any better. If the engine was totally rebuilt by Labor Day 2022 how long with it take to have the chassis and body ready for the first break in run? 

The way the car is constructed, it is cage over the original frame. The body is not removable from the frame without cutting it off. It is much easier to restore it mechanically without the body covering in the way. Then the body covering will be fabricated over the restored chassis. As a restorer, I have always completed mechanical/frame before body/paint. 

[George Albright]

Great find! The AACA family is always here to help!

[karguy12]

37 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Here is a previous post on the same automobile.

 

 

I've been really trying to make MY post about mechanically sourcing parts and rebuilding a Pierce Arrow engine for the sole purpose of NOT having this turn into a pissing match about what my car is or is not.  So, why are you posting this here?  

[Peter Gariepy]

35 minutes ago, karguy12 said:

I've been really trying to make MY post about mechanically sourcing parts and rebuilding a Pierce Arrow engine for the sole purpose of NOT having this turn into a pissing match about what my car is or is not.  So, why are you posting this here?  

Thought people might be interested in the back story on the car.  
 

You did say… “… I am wanting to take on this project. Still offering the $1,000 reward to anyone who can prove who built it.”

[CarlLaFong]

You're going to have to address    the welded in spark plugs

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

24 minutes ago, CarlLaFong said:

You're going to have to address    the welded in spark plugs

 

And, apparently, the welded-on body framework…

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Looks like some sort of tach drive off a lathe or piece of farm equipment, could also be used as a gear reduction cable drive for some other item on the car……….pull it off, take it apart, and post photos…….then a much more definitive answer can be given. Popping in almost any 1913-1938 Pierce engine would be fine. There are only a few minor differences and only experts could tell. Bring that particular engine back from the dead is possible, but very expensive. Performance modifications to the engine are very unlikely……..the F head design has huge limitations…….but many home shop builds used them because of displacement. With a bit of effort a 385 big block Pierce engine can make 200 hp……..just add another 50k to the price of the rebuild. Thus figure 80 grand to build a modern hot rod engine that won’t tear itself apart. If your going to try and actually make the thing go down the road buying a barn find complete car is the way to go. 

Ed, watch your Crown Royal consumption!  No, Pierce engines 1913-1928 are NOT appropriate--they're all 6-cylinder.  And Pierce never used an F-head!  T-heads 1918-1928.  But I'd go for a 385 cid engine 1930-1932 which uses the same block, but with different crank and rods, of course. 366 cid = 3.5 x 4.75; 385 cid = 3.5 x 5.0.  Only those who commit engine number prefixes to memory will be able to tell the difference between 366 and 385.  Bear in find that Pierce was very conservative with compression ratios:  my 1930 366 has 5.01 and my 1934 385 has 5.5; PAS advice from a couple of original P-A engineers 50 years ago to owners was to NOT shave the heads to increase the compression ratio.

[Rusty_OToole]

You describe it as having a plastic body, do you know what kind of plastic? Fibreglass reinforced polyester resin became available after WW2, Plexiglass was available just before WW2, I don't know what was available before the mid 30s unless it was Bakelite or celluloid, neither suitable for making car bodies.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

Ed, watch your Crown Royal consumption!  No, Pierce engines 1913-1928 are NOT appropriate--they're all 6-cylinder.  And Pierce never used an F-head!  T-heads 1918-1928.  But I'd go for a 385 cid engine 1930-1932 which uses the same block, but with different crank and rods, of course. 366 cid = 3.5 x 4.75; 385 cid = 3.5 x 5.0.  Only those who commit engine number prefixes to memory will be able to tell the difference between 366 and 385.  Bear in find that Pierce was very conservative with compression ratios:  my 1930 366 has 5.01 and my 1934 385 has 5.5; PAS advice from a couple of original P-A engineers 50 years ago to owners was to NOT shave the heads to increase the compression ratio.

George.  The 3&1 were transposed. 

[Rivguy]

This is going to be a very interesting thread though it will be out of my familiarity zone. This build reminds me of a Brooklands type car build that featured an aviation engine that was covered in Octane magazine a few years back. Looking through a Hop Up magazine 1950's compilation volume, there was an early 40's Cadillac that had a Marmon 16 installed in the stretched and modified chassis. That car had a customized body, but it was a complete finished, painted and trimmed out, street running example. Hot Rodders built all kinds of things. Good luck in your build.