1928 Pontiac 6-28 sedan

[zdillinger]

Hello all, 

 

I've started my new project, a 1928 Pontiac 6-28 sedan which I have named Myrna (after Ms. Loy). This is the car that I was asking about in my "Restoration space options" thread in General Discussion, but I figured it would be better to move the updates to this dedicated subforum. So, anyway, here I am. The plan, as of right now, is to get it running and driving safely while preserving as much originality as possible. The original seating surfaces are present, though it will need new door panels at some point, and there is enough of the very cool old two-tone blue paint to at least run it for a while while I decide if a full restoration is on the cards. Right now I lean towards just preserving what's there.

 

The car was delivered to me last Friday and I spent the weekend cataloging the parts on hand and doing a few simple things to the car, including:

• Fitting all new ignition parts to correct a no-spark issue.
• Fitting the radiator, including new hoses,
• Rebuilt fuel pump
• Cleaned out gas tank
• Ran a new steel line from tank to pump
• Removed aftermarket Schebler SX-305a carburetor for cleaning/examination. I'm thinking about going back to the stock carb, assuming I can find one, just for originality's sake but, then again, this aftermarket piece was probably fitted for a reason...
   

The car runs (albeit poorly) when I spray a little starting fluid down the carb so I think it should go once I have the fuel system sorted. I already ran an all new metal fuel line from tank to pump and rebuilt the fuel pump and tank pickup, but it doesn't seem to be drawing fuel, which leads me to believe that perhaps the cam eccentric is worn out. More diagnosis to be done later on that.

 

Obviously the body needs some fairly serious attention because a lot of the wood is missing. Fortunately, I'm a furniture maker with all the tools needed to redo/repair this damage. I even have a few hundred board feet of ash already on hand.

 

Anyhow, it's a start. Here's some pics.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[cxgvd]

I thought Pontiac had oval shaped rear windows in sedans?  Obviously wrong again.

 

Interesting project with the two piece cylinder head.  Gary

[nzcarnerd]

10 minutes ago, cxgvd said:

I thought Pontiac had oval shaped rear windows in sedans?  Obviously wrong again.

 

Interesting project with the two piece cylinder head.  Gary

1929and 1930 for oval rear windows. The 'split head' engine ran 1926-32.  Its main claim to fame when first introduced in 1926 was it had the shortest stroke of any American engine at 3 3/4". The bore was 3 1/4" - for 186 cid. From 1929 they went out to 3 5/16" bore and 3 7/8" stroke - 200 cid. They have only three main bearings and were never intended to be a 'performance' engine.

[63RedBrier]

Neat project!  Do you have the DS doors?  Good luck!  I'll be following along...  Greg

[zdillinger]

2 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

Neat project!  Do you have the DS doors?  Good luck!  I'll be following along...  Greg

 Yup, sure do! I have pretty much everything for the car except the radiator mascot.

 

Waiting for a new carb from The Carburetor Shop and then the car should run!

[zdillinger]

While I'm waiting for my new carburetor to arrive (just ordered today), I decided to start tackling the rewooding project. Since basically none of the wood is likely to survive the removal process, using it as a direct template is pretty much out of the question. I'm forced to leave everything in situ and take detailed measurements, etc. This is tonight's efforts, a rough-ish shot at the two front sills (which will be refined/tweaked as I install them) along with the three cross sills (which I believe MAY be useable but I might replace them for my own peace of mind). I also need to think of a way to save the original Fisher Body stamping on the sill which is still legible despite the rot.

 

Once I have more refined measurements, etc., I plan to make this model available to AACA members in hope that it will assist others in future projects.

 

Zach

Edited August 10, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Bloo]

12 minutes ago, zdillinger said:

 

Once I have more refined measurements, etc., I plan to make this model available to AACA members in hope that it will assist others in future projects.

Thank you! I don't even own the right kind of Pontiac, but kudos for you efforts. Wood patterns are the biggest stumbling block for so many of these Fisher bodied cars.

 

14 minutes ago, zdillinger said:

Since basically none of the wood is likely to survive the removal process,

You might want to rethink that.... Real usable patterns are an almost impossible thing. Be careful with what you have. Find a way to save them.

 

Fisher did not make these to come apart easy unfortunately. As an example, my 1936 back doors are missing most of their wood. On one side, a lot of it was laying in rotten shards in the bottom of the door. On the other side, someone must have vacuumed it out. I am reverse engineering it based on some slightly larger rotten shards I got from another restorer in Idaho. I will probably be committing the cardinal sin (according to Fisher) of splicing the lock pillars because I do not want to split the corners of the doors open. However, If I had a usable pattern good enough to make that piece (I don't), I would have to split the corners to get it out. If I broke it to get it out, I would still have to split the corners to get the new piece in. That is because Fisher made the wooden door first and put the metal on and folded it over afterward. It sucks, but that is how it is. There are more difficult spots like that throughout the body unfortunately.

 

[EmTee]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:49 PM, Bloo said:

Find a way to save them.

Maybe brush the wood with polyester resin before removal?  Or, perhaps multiple layers of masking tape?  Anything to help keep pieces together during the disassembly.

[stretch cab]

I applaud you for your courage and look forward to taking the restoration journey with you through this forum.

[zdillinger]

Well a major milestone has been met today. I received my new carb from The Carburetor Shop (thanks again Jon!). I was planning to work on it this weekend but I just couldn't wait... bolted up the new carb, gave it a couple of turns with the choke on, then flipped the switch and she started! Runs pretty good, albeit a little smoky (not unexpected since it hasn't been running since 1957). 

 

 

I also have been making some progress on the body wood. Here's a new driver's side sill kick up. Just roughed in and not yet attached (since the sills themselves still need to be made) but I'm happy with the fit so far.

 

Onward and upward!

Edited August 12, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

It’s always a great day when you can see the fruits of your labor. Mike

[carbking]

Glad it worked out for you!

 

Getting it running after 55 years is a milestone! Congratulations!

 

Just gives some incentive to continue.

 

Might be worth checking with Pontiac Oakland Club International. Someone might have done the patterns; never hurts to check.

 

Jon.

Edited August 13, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

More progress. Rear sheet metal primed in preparation for final wood installation.  Ignore the very temporary fuel pump installation.

 

Cutting the new passenger side sill. I build 18th century reproduction furniture, so I like to use only hand tools to work with wood whenever possible. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

Some minor progress has been made. I have the new sills test installed, including the axle kickups, and I've figured out where the central lock posts are supposed to go (hence the lack of black paint on the new ash sills in that location). I also refurbished the original floor boards and have installed those as well, enabling me to do a dry run of the front seat fitting. Figured I'd better make sure I can actually fit in this thing when it is done (I'm 6'5" and I've never sat in one of these before, so I wasn't sure).

 

Next up is replacing the rear framing including the belt rail (thankfully I have a somewhat substantial fragment of this from which to work).

 

 

[Lahti35]

Nice work, nice T too!

 

[zdillinger]

I'm flying solo this weekend so I've started tackling some of the more intense wood repair. This is the driver's side rear window. After assessing the condition of all of the wood, I:

• completed a dutchman repair on the rotted out mortise cheek that holds the rear quarter belt bar.
• spliced in a new length of ash to repair the rot at the bottom hinge attachment and at the joint where the two pieces of the hinge pillar assembly connect. This required some fancy cutting to recreate the rotten tenon at the very end but, as you can see, the surgery was successful
• the rear quarter belt bar was completely rotten and required a completely new piece. The top edge of this had to be molded to fit the sheet metal skin, and a groove had to be plowed in the back for the rubber weatherstripping (still needs to be sourced/installed but that can be done after the frame is back in the car).
• New braces had to be made. Easy peasy, just 45 degree triangles with a rabbet cut on one of them to fit over the post.

The woodwork on this part is basically done. Now I just need to splice in some new wood to the lower, curved part of the hinge pillar assembly. I also need to locate new window felts as the existing ones are not reusable. If anyone has a line on suitable replacements I would be grateful for the information.

 

 

[GARY F]

Very nice work.

[zdillinger]

I was able to get the driver's side quarter window framing reinstalled. I was extremely happy when all the nailing holes for the body sheet metal lined up with the holes left in the original wood (where it was still in place). I was especially nervous about the curved lower piece that screws to the sill and goes around the wheel well, but it lined up beautifully. Guess I did it right! It's now solid as heck.

 

I also took out the passenger quarter window. This one definitely fooled me, before I took it out of the car it looked relatively straightforward, not a lot of repairs, just a new lower end to the  hinge post.... boy was I wrong. This one is actually worse than the driver's side, with entire framing pieces needing to be replaced.

 

Once this is repaired and reinstalled, I can start tackling the rear framing.

Edited August 23, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

Starting to think ahead.... which is dangerous. I found the original paint colors that were available and, through the magic of the Internet, did a rough workup of possible paint schemes. I really like the two tone brown but the wife says no.... I think the car was originally the "Plymouth Gray" which is really more of a gray-blue. 

[alsancle]

What were the original colors?

[zdillinger]

53 minutes ago, alsancle said:

What were the original colors?

I'm not 100% sure, but the paint inside the body closely resembles the Plymouth Gray (aka Oxford Blue). 

[63RedBrier]

Listen closely to your wife!  Two-tone brown with orange wheels screams the 70's...  Which one of your schemes is closest to the original color?

[zdillinger]

4 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

Listen closely to your wife!  Two-tone brown with orange wheels screams the 70's...  Which one of your schemes is closest to the original color?

The lighter blue-gray is, I believe, the original color.

[zdillinger]

I've made some progress in the last week or so since my most recent update, but not a lot of photos this time.

• The passenger side rear quarter window framework is rebuilt and reinstalled.
• The rear roof sheet metal and rear window have been removed so I can rebuild the rear framework.
• I've matched the original Plymouth Gray as best I can and painted the inside sheet metal and woodwork. As I add more pieces of wood I'll paint them to ensure that every piece is covered on all sides to help prevent future rot.

Next up is a permanent installation of the fuel pump (easier while the rear floor is out), then the rear framework and seat supports. 

 

I'm pretty happy with how it is coming along. I still need to decide if I'm going to preserve the outside as-is or repaint. Right now I lean toward a repaint since I'll need to install a new interior and top anyway but that's a problem for future me to solve.

 

Thanks, as always, for looking!

 

Zach D.

[zdillinger]

A quick update on the car. I recreated the missing rear belt rail and then used the existing scraps of the supports to create new ones. Got it all screwed and glued in place and a spit coat of paint on it.

 

I still need to deal with the fuel pump but, frankly, I'm having too much fun doing woodwork to do that particular chore. One of these days I'll find one of those roundtoit things....

 

Anyhow, as always, thanks for following along.  

[nsbrassnut]

I am in admiration of the speed of progress of your wood work. That is a lot of hard work and a lot of progress over a short time. It puts many of us to shame.

 

There used to be a 1928 Pontiac sedan in our neighbourhood here. It was restored many years ago from a good original by a master mechanic and body man. It left his ownership several years ago and has deteriorated since. Here is a picture of it from a few years ago to show the colour scheme. It is black with dark blue body and turquise highlights. Not quite original, but it looks very good.

 

There is also a nice 1927 Pontiac coupe in our club. Recently finished and almost fully sorted out now. Its was done with black fenders and green body.

 

The idea being to present some ideas for colour options and how they have turned out on other cars.

 

An addition note, when the 1928 was restored, the owner found it to be rather slow with a high rear end gear ration. Capable of pulling stumps, but the engine would run fast around 40 mph. If I remember it correctly, he figured out that 1932 Chevrolet rear end gears could be installed in the Pontiac rear, lowering the rear end ratio and making a big difference in top end speed. When it was done, the Pontiac could easily cruise at 40 mph and was even run at 50 mph for a long run one day when he was "mad at it" after the fan came loose and ran into the back of the radiator damaging the fins on the core.

 

Good luck with your restoration.

 

[chistech]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:44 AM, 63RedBrier said:

Listen closely to your wife!  Two-tone brown with orange wheels screams the 70's...  Which one of your schemes is closest to the original color?

I don’t know about the 70’s comment though I’ve seen many here say it. My 31 chevy is painted factory 1931 chevy paint code 81, fawn brown, coffee cream, and swamp holly orange. Everywhere I go in this car I get lots and lots of people telling me how much they love the color and have never had anyone tell me they didn’t like it. The paint is immaculate and was done by my good friend Moses Lima so I suppose that helps. The masking was done to factory also which helps compliment the colors.

[63RedBrier]

My apologies, Chistech...  Going forward I'll do my best to keep my color preferences to myself.  Your car looks great!  Drive on...  Greg

[chistech]

No offense taken. I’ve heard many others say the same thing and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think many fail to realize that the two tone brown color combination was a factory color for many marques. I would think many cars were either originally that color or simply repainted in a factory color scheme for originality in a restoration. 

[Terry Wiegand]

I am curious about one thing and that is your choice of wood for the body.  We have a '16, '20, and '22 Buicks and all of them have bodies that were built by the Fisher Brothers.  White Ash was commonly used in General Motors automobiles while wood was still being used a lot.  I cannot tell from your photos and I was wondering if this was your wood of choice for this project?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[zdillinger]

15 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

I am curious about one thing and that is your choice of wood for the body.  We have a '16, '20, and '22 Buicks and all of them have bodies that were built by the Fisher Brothers.  White Ash was commonly used in General Motors automobiles while wood was still being used a lot.  I cannot tell from your photos and I was wondering if this was your wood of choice for this project?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

Hi Terry, yes the wood I am using is kiln-dried white ash. The level of decay in my car makes it tough to tell for sure, but there seems to be a mix of woods present, including ash, poplar, and what appears to be a softwood species, perhaps fir, for the top bows and the front header into which the top is nailed. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[pmhowe]

I am awed by

1. Your willingness to take on a project of this magnitude.
2. Your having the woodworking skills to required.
3. The progress you have made so far.

I’ll be watching your progress with enthusiasm. It will be fun to see such a neat car brought back to life. I’ll also be looking for ideas and approaches to use myself.

[zdillinger]

43 minutes ago, pmhowe said:

I am awed by

1. Your willingness to take on a project of this magnitude.
2. Your having the woodworking skills to required.
3. The progress you have made so far.

I’ll be watching your progress with enthusiasm. It will be fun to see such a neat car brought back to life. I’ll also be looking for ideas and approaches to use myself.

Thank you for your kind words! I make 18th century period reproduction furniture and have written a couple of books (and a dozen or so how-to magazine articles) so woodwork is solidly in my wheelhouse. Combining my two great loves, woodworking and pre-war cars, is great fun for me! 

 

I'll take this opportunity to offer a quick update as well. I have the rear window framework refreshed and installed. Thankfully, there was no rot in the window framework, just a bunch of loose joints, so it was a simple matter to take it apart, clean up the glue surfaces, and reglue/screw it all together. Tight as a drum now. I had to remake a couple of curved pieces at the top but had enough of the original pieces to make this a simple job. 

 

I'm starting to get into the roof framing now, on the idea that I'll repair/replace what I can while everything is still in place on the car, including the heavily damaged top side rails and the essentially non-existent front pillars. Then I'll be able to use my newly created parts as references for the hard-to-replace parts, i.e. rails and pillars. This way I always have some sort of reference to work from, the body, existing joinery, etc. which is something I wouldn't be able to do if I pulled it apart.... at least that's what I'm telling myself as I try to procrastinate from tackling the "scary" job, i.e. the new front pillars.

 

Thanks for following along, y'all!

[zdillinger]

Hey all,

 

Progress has been slowed a bit by some family obligations over the last week or slow, but a few things have been done since my last update, including:

• I mocked up the front seat back, which enabled me to confirm my measurements for the B pillars. I have them clamped temporarily in place now.
• I finally did the permanent installation of the fuel pump. I just need to connect the + wire but this will be done when I rewire the car with the new wiring harness I bought from a fellow forum member.
• I installed the rear seat sheet metal.
• I've made good progress on the rear roof framing, including the creation of the most complex piece, the rear frame member which curves down its length and has bevels on both edges. This is the second attempt as I goofed up the more important of the two bevels.

Next up I need to repair the ends of the two roof crown rails and get them connected into the rear framing. I'm rapidly running out of things that I can do before tackling the front pillars.

 

Thanks for following along!

 

Zach D.

[zdillinger]

Well, I finally procrastinated as long as I possibly could... I had to start the "scary" part, i.e. the replacement of the front pillars and top roof rails. To make progress, I had to essentially decapitate the car... and this is how it stands. Hopefully I took enough photos and measurements so that I can get it back together again.

 

 

[keiser31]

Have you seen this body structure book? Looks like it could be of some help....it show various body types....

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

2 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Have you seen this body structure book? Looks like it could be of some help....it show various body types....

 

Most definitely. I bought this, and the Pontiac mechanical service manual, before the car was delivered, and I read the Fisher Body manual cover to cover before tearing into the woodwork. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Dan Cluley]

Looks like you are making excellent progress. 

I can't quite read it, so I have to ask.  What bridge did the highway dept plaque come from?

[chistech]

You’re lucky your car sheet metal comes apart at the belt line and top of cowl. The later cars had all electro welded seams and doing things like the roof rails, crown rails, rear, front, and roof bows is a chore as you either have to pull the metal from the car or be creative and install it all from inside. Your A pillars also have separate upper covers so they are also easier to install. On the later cars you have to cut the upper covers from the cowl where the solder joint is then once reinstalled, re-solder and body work the joint.

[zdillinger]

2 hours ago, chistech said:

You’re lucky your car sheet metal comes apart at the belt line and top of cowl. The later cars had all electro welded seams and doing things like the roof rails, crown rails, rear, front, and roof bows is a chore as you either have to pull the metal from the car or be creative and install it all from inside. Your A pillars also have separate upper covers so they are also easier to install. On the later cars you have to cut the upper covers from the cowl where the solder joint is then once reinstalled, re-solder and body work the joint.

I definitely appreciate the access that the sheet metal has given me! Also, I've found your posts on rewooding cars to be super helpful!