Welding Repair

[MochetVelo]

I'm thinking to repair these worn clutch fork parts with weld. I could use MIG or gas welding and then file them smooth. These just ride in a slot to engage the clutch. Any suggestions? 1909 Buick.

 

Phil

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

I am no welding expert, but I suggest you pick the method that would impart the least distortion.  The alignment of the pins is critical to the function of the part.  Perhaps heating the whole part prior to MIG welding would provide more penetration and reduce or eliminate  distortion?

[nearchoclatetown]

Are the parts symmetrical? Could you turn them over and use the back side? Or have new ones cast. Not sure I would weld them. 

[MochetVelo]

Yes, they are symmetrical, and most wear is on one side. They must both push and pull the clutch, however. They clutch locks in the disengaged position and is then pulled out of the locked position to engage. I could weld the worn sides and also reverse them.

 

Phil

[joe_padavano]

Building up the metal with MIG would be your better choice. You may also want to consider flame spraying, which is a common method for building up wear surfaces like that.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have done similar repairs by brazing then filing to shape.  You can build up with brass and file smooth easier, and it is quite durable although not as durable as hardened steel. Metal spray is another possibility.

Or, arc weld or MIG weld and grind it down. There are a lot of different alloys of welding rod available, an experienced welder may be able to recommend something made for this kind of application.

[Rusty_OToole]

Do those shoes engage with the throwout bearing? What kind of bearing is it? I wonder if you could use a ball bearing or something not so prone to wear?

[MochetVelo]

There is no bearing, which explains the wear. Here's a photo of the cone clutch removed from its holder. The steel slider on the right disengages the clutch by moving to the left. It spreads the 3 roller arms which, in turn, push the cone clutch inward. The slot in the slider (the orange screwdriver is aimed at it) is where the worn "fork" parts above fit. As you can see, there is no bearing. They just loosely fit in the slot.

 

Phil

 

 

[37_Roadmaster_C]

That part looks like cast iron. If that is the case, welding is a gamble. Cast welding is an art at best and it never has the strength of the original cast part. I would make a new part from steel. I have the equipment to do this, but a good machinist could make a new one easily. Depending on the way it works and the moving load it may need to be hardened, but again, that is not a big issue. Material choice is the most important thing and a machinist can make a good choice that will fit the purpose. Just my thoughts.

Edited September 16, 2021 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history)

[37_Roadmaster_C]

I am also just not quite seeing how the assembly works. If you or someone has an exploded view or a picture showing the whole assembly it would help the understanding. I was first thinking the pin rides in the "throw out cone", but looking more the wear looks like the flat block may ride in the cone. In your first picture are you showing us one part broken in half or two parts with broken edges?

Sorry. I am just not familiar with Buicks that old 🙄.

[MochetVelo]

The worn clutch parts are steel and not cast iron. The worn parts are not shown in my second photo. The shaft to the right in photo #2 connects to the crankshaft. The clutch fork, an upside-down U-shape, site right above the groove pointed to by my orange screwdriver. It holds the 2 worn parts in photo #1, which ride in that groove. I wish there were some nice drawings of this transmission, but I've never seen any. It's a 1909 Model 10 Buick.

 

Phil

[joe_padavano]

Once you weld and re-machine the shoes, I'd suggest you have them coated with an aerospace grade dry lube. These are typically teflon or graphite coatings that are baked on. That should prevent future wear.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

1 hour ago, MochetVelo said:

The worn clutch parts are steel and not cast iron. The worn parts are not shown in my second photo. The shaft to the right in photo #2 connects to the crankshaft. The clutch fork, an upside-down U-shape, site right above the groove pointed to by my orange screwdriver. It holds the 2 worn parts in photo #1, which ride in that groove. I wish there were some nice drawings of this transmission, but I've never seen any. It's a 1909 Model 10 Buick.

 

Phil

 

Ok, I think I see how it works. In your first photo are you showing two individual parts? I think that is what I am seeing now. If so, the sections with the arc wear marks sure look like cast, but maybe not. In any case making new would still be my recommendation. Also as Joe said, a good dry lube will help a lot.

[MochetVelo]

47 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Once you weld and re-machine the shoes, I'd suggest you have them coated with an aerospace grade dry lube. These are typically teflon or graphite coatings that are baked on. That should prevent future wear.

Wonder what that would cost for these 2 small parts?

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, MochetVelo said:

Wonder what that would cost for these 2 small parts?

 

I wish I could help with cost numbers, but my experience has been with aerospace flight hardware and the coating cost was typically included in the fabrication subcontract total (plus, we required full certifications and sample coupons, which significantly increased costs). Google dry film lubricant coatings, which will get you websites of the various industrial vendors (as opposed to the DIY spray-on stuff). The two most popular versions are PTFE (teflon) and moly.

[trini]

If I remember correctly mig welding will only weld up to 1/4 inch. Tig welding may be a better choice. I would get a good machine shop to fill braze with bronze and machine it. Bronze wear better than steel. You doubt me ? Try filing bronze.  I am inclined to think that part is cast steel. It needs special rod for that purpose. Experience  welders know their stuff. The type of welding rod required. NO APPRENTICE WELDER. 

[Oldtech]

I doubt those are cast. I would try it with a MIG. Bet it works fine.   If they are cast then brazing is the solution.

[joe_padavano]

4 hours ago, trini said:

If I remember correctly mig welding will only weld up to 1/4 inch.

 

You simply make multiple passes until the metal is built up to the required thickness then machine back to the original contour. This process is done all the time to repair worn machinery.

[trini]

 Worn Dozers track roller pins are welded with a special arc rod and machined to size. Then they are sent to another  place to surface harden. Good machinist can do wonders. I think the rods are called filler rods. I cannot remember the technical designation. There is also a special arc rod for building up broken studs . I saw it work during my working days.

[joe_padavano]

55 minutes ago, trini said:

 Worn Dozers track roller pins are welded with a special arc rod and machined to size. Then they are sent to another  place to surface harden. Good machinist can do wonders. I think the rods are called filler rods. I cannot remember the technical designation. There is also a special arc rod for building up broken studs . I saw it work during my working days.

 

Yes, there are also hard-facing rods and MIG wire for similar applications. This is not unusual in the industrial world.

[Stude17]

The method I would use to reclaim these parts is to build up the worn surface with nickel bronze and resurface in a lathe.  You could reverse them if you so desire.  I would not use anything harder than the parent material so that this part wears and not the grooved collar on the shaft as it would be easier to replace/or resurface these items than the collar.  

[JV Puleo]

20 minutes ago, Stude17 said:

The method I would use to reclaim these parts is to build up the worn surface with nickel bronze and resurface in a lathe.  You could reverse them if you so desire.  I would not use anything harder than the parent material so that this part wears and not the grooved collar on the shaft as it would be easier to replace/or resurface these items than the collar.  

 

This is very good advice. You do not want to wear the part that will be much more difficult to renew. Were it mine. I'd probably make new wear pieces out of bearing bronze with the projecting pieces or steel, threaded in.

[Bhigdog]

Build up with weld by the process of your choice. Hold the part in a collet block and surface grind flat. That will true the part to the shaft and remove any warpage..........Bob

[Bhigdog]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:41 AM, Mark Shaw said:

I am no welding expert, but I suggest you pick the method that would impart the least distortion.  The alignment of the pins is critical to the function of the part.  Perhaps heating the whole part prior to MIG welding would provide more penetration and reduce or eliminate  distortion?

 

Build up with weld by the process of your choice. Hold the part in a collet block and surface grind flat. That will true the part to the shaft and remove any warpage..........Bob

[MochetVelo]

I brought these parts along with another job to my local machinist/welder who does very nice work. I'll post a photo when it's done. 

 

Phil

[Fossil]

I was told many decades ago by an old welder that if the metallurgy of the part to be repaired is unknown (Steel not Cast iron) weld it with Stainless Steel. His advice has yet to fail me. There will be almost no chance of the weld cracking. I'm guessing your pieces are some sort of high strength steel and if arc welding would at least use something comparable to Low Hydrogen 7018. 

[MochetVelo]

Here are the repaired parts. I brought them to my machinist, who has a welder visit his shop. He filled the wear with stainless TIG weld and then ground it flat. The job took a while as these small parts don't get a high priority amongst all their bigger jobs.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[trini]

MochetVelo,Thank you very much for letting us know. Not too many people come back on this blog to let us know how they did make out. That is a great job done.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

@MochetVelo, Very nice repair. Thank You for the follow up posting.