Barn project

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

The older I get, the more stuff I have and I’m running out of space to put things. I currently have a three bay garage that’s about a thousand square feet. By the time I house vehicles and lawn equipment, I’m out of space. In the fall, we take the lawn tractor over to my in laws barn for storage so I can get my truck in. Then in the spring means my truck gets put outside and lawn equipment in for the season. I’m in need of more storage space. I have the land so it’s time for more storage. I’m going to write this thread with my thought process as well as what I decided on in the planning process. 
some people will just whip out the phone and call a contractor and have them build something. If the floats your boat that’s fine , but lots of decisions need to be made way before the construction can begin. First is size. Just how big can one afford. For me, the size of the lot dictates the size. My lots are 60 X 120. With the setbacks I can go no wider than 40’ and no longer than 100’. With the budget I have, I settled on 40 X 56. You’ll also have to decide on how high it needs to be. What are you going to be using it for. Just dry storage or shop space or a combination of both. What is your tallest item that will be going in and out. For me, I want to store my camper and ladder truck in it. Both are right at 11’ tall so a 12’ tall door is needed. You need about 2’ of head room for the to open. So I needed to be 14’ minimum height. 
Next came construction type pole barn or traditional stick built. I have the ability to do the building to do both,  just don’t have the time or man power to help. Pole barns can go up quite fast compared to stick built. Either can span the distance across with the proper truss design. Pole barns can be cheaper also. Both can have metal siding and metal roofs. You may want it to look like your house or it can be totally different. That’s your call. You can go to any big box store and get estimates done for either, but you need to know exactly what you want before that can happen.  Since I’ve been in the trades most of my adult life, I know what I want and can make decisions as necessary. I chose a pole barn with metal roof and siding. 
So far I have decided on a all metal pole barn that will be 40X56x14 with 1 door that is 12’ high. I’m planning to use for both dry storage and some shop work

 I’ve given you all a lot to digest and think about so I’ll continue later
 

[Guest]

 For fire safety I would recommend a pass door in the rear end of the garage.

[padgett]

First rule of the auto hobby: it always expands to fill all available space. I have 2,000 sq ft of garage (and a 2,000 sq ft house) and in just 35 years it is full to avalanche..

 

The big garage has car doors in both ends which is good for ventilation if need to run a car. Also have a "whole house" fan in the roof & an AC in the work area. A fire extinguisher at every door and in strategic locations. 5KW generator (Florida) - at the limit of what I can lift.

 

Is enough room for a different project everywhere so if get bored just move to a different location. My life has not changed much (though miss Tuesday trivia in a local sports bar).

 

ps with 40X56x14 I would suggest a high bay area for lift(s) and an area with a second floor (re-enforced) for storage. A tire rack is a good idea. Maybe two (I have waaaay too many tire stacks, some from the last century)..

pps my lot is 85x150 plus swale and house is set back about 90 feet, in a neighborhood with sidewalks and  and an HOA. Makes life interesting since almost nothing shows from the street (House is offset so can move large rig from front to back).

[JACK M]

My builder neighbor friend tells me that the best way would be to pour the slab first and frame the walls on the floor and tilt up.

Any shop building these days needs to have at least one 14 ft hi door on the biggest bay with good approach. (figure a 40 ft. motor coach in someone's future and resale)

And of coarse in a few years you will be kicking yourself for not going bigger.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Some of the next things to consider is doors and windows. You will definitely need s service door. A 36X80 is the standard. You may even want two. It all depends on your layout. As far as big doors go, you can do sliding, overhead, or roll up. In my opinion, sliding doors are not weather tight. You can lock them, but they are next to impossible to seal up. They will let snow and rain in. Overhead and roll up doors are available in many sizes as well as custom sizes. Yes Jack M, if I were ever thinking of moving, which I’m not, a 14’ is the best option. I don’t want a class a motor home. I have a travel trailer and don’t want a fifth wheel either. A 12’ overhead is big enough for me. The next thing is width of doors. Here again they come in different sizes. Some say don’t go too big while others say don’t go too small. You have to think of what will be going in and out of that door. For me, the camper will move in in the fall and out in the spring.  The ladder truck will only go out seldom. The boat is like the camper, but the trailer will be in all the time. Lawn equipment as needed. I’m also planning on putting my company van in in the winter. I just hate to scrape windows. With all that said, the big door will be a16X12 that will be in the gable end. I’m also going to put in a 9X7 on the side for lawn equipment. The service door will be next to it. The other thing to consider is if you want your overhead(s) insulated. I like the insulated ones. I think they are a stronger than non insulated. I already have them on order and should be here the middle part of June. 
Windows will let in natural light and a breeze. They can also let someone see what’s inside. On the flip side you can see someone coming and what the weather is doing. Mine won’t have any windows. You can also get what is called a light window. There’s a opaque siding that’s put in up high on the side walls that let natural light in. You can’t see out as they are too high. They are about 3’ tall and go from the eve down. Windows come in many sizes as well. You can get then in contractor grade to super high efficiency. It all depends on you, your budget, and your preferences. 
 

So far I have building and door size. The next thing is floor. 

[padgett]

The next issue is zoning and property lines. My back garage is right up to the easements which are several feet inside the property lines. A survey of the lot should show the easements. Also mine are attached, can reach any without going outside. If separate might consider a breezeway.

 

Finally door size depends on the RV (had to notch for the mirrors).

 

[Jim Bollman]

Since your space allows bigger than you want to currently spend pick a design that allows you to extend the building or add a shed roof addition in the future, should want more space. I second the idea of picking a design that allows at least part of the building to have a second floor, almost free space and it gets a lot of stuff out of your way. My old shop I had a 4X8 foot trap door in the second story floor so I could lift things up with a front end loader on my tractor. Was even more important when it came time to move, I was 30+ years older by then and what I carried upstairs I couldn't lift anymore but, I could move it to the trap door and on to a lift platform on the tractor.

[SC38dls]

Depending on where you are in the world ventilation can be very important. Windows for cross breezes to keep it cool in summer can make it a much more enjoyable place to work on a project.  That size does not lend in self very well to heat or cooling so fans and a way to move air out of the building  helps. 
Have fun, show us pictures as you progress 

Dave s 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

As far as the floor goes, you have two options , gravel or concrete. I’m going with concrete. The barn kit I chose doesn’t have any wood below grade. Mine will mount to the top of the concrete. There’s several different brackets that get put in when the concrete is pored. You them bolt your column to it. Since they changed the chemicals make up of treated lumber, it doesn’t last the old stuff did. 
 

I need to back up a little. The pole barn kit I chose and was delivered yesterday is from Dandi. It is a wood structure that will look like a steel one. It has vaulted girders. Which means I don’t need the 14’ side walls, but can still get the overhead door I want. The side walls are 11’. Since the side wall starts a the height of the items I’m going to store, it isn’t a problem. 
 

Some thing else to consider is the color. Again you can match your home or go opposite. There are a lot of options to consider. 

 

As of now, I have the concrete piers pored. The floor is formed up and will be pored on Monday. Once the concrete is done and sets about a week or so, I’ll be starting on assembling the main girders and columns. 
 

Other things to consider is heat and air conditioning. Air conditioning is simple, it’s either yes or no. As far as heat goes, there are quite a few options. You can do forced air, wood burner, used oil burner, Radiant tube, radiant floor, or none at all

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

[padgett]

I have heaters in my ceiling fans. Is enough.

[Gunsmoke]

As a retired Architect, I should have the sense to say nothing. But I've been holed up a while, so here goes. As with everything "designed" rather than just "built", form should follow function, and that adage can apply to something as seemingly simple as a garage. If you know for example 50% of the space only needs 8' ceiling height, why go to 11 or 14, all that volume of air needs heat/air etc. First tip: keep structure as low as possible in a residential neighborhood. Secondly, if you plan to work in there, skylights are the perfect way to get superb lighting, better than any LED's. Plan the space, dirty area, clean area, bench tools, hoists, paint booth etc, where to put 220 wiring, hose bibs, floor drains, and place doors accordingl;y. Should have at least 2 O/H doors and 1 man door in case a project winds up blocking one for a period. Side windows are good for lighting (and should match style of house windows), and also offer potential aesthetic appeal out side. As for outside appearance there is no such thing as "or should I go opposite" What is opposite? If you like the look of your house and don't plan to change it, then select the look of the garage so it looks like a good partner, same roof shingles, siding, slope for roof, etc, and not have it look like somebody dropped it in there from outer space. However, if you did plan to make it looks like some 1930's service station, only go that route if you really mean it, in other words don't go half way. Finally if you plan ahead, you may save yourself a lot of trouble with the wife. A couple of benches or 2 small shrubs can never hide an ugly job. There, I knew I should have shut up! Good luck.

 

BTW, I have no idea what a pole barn is? I have known a few Pole Cats tho! So I googled Pole Barn, and see what they mean. In the profession here we would refer to this type of construction as "post and beam" or "timber framed". I suspect the "pole" term dates form 200 years ago when trees were cut limbed, de-barked and used as is to frame up a structure with minimal dressing of the wood into lumber. Learn something new every day.

 

An advantage of stud wall and truss construction is ease of insulating, especially in cold climates. For higher ceilings in center, a scissors truss can be used, creating a slop-ed ceiling inside. Cheers Hubbie, hope it all goes well.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Gumsmoke, what I meant by opposite is this. My boss put up a pole barn last year. He has a gray sided ranch house. He chose to go what I call opposite with the barn color of maroon and white. They live somewhat out in the country, but are among several other houses. I asked why he chose those colors?  He said he didn’t want to be tied to the gray. 
 

 

[padgett]

Have been quite a few threads on garages. Two things to le careful of:

1) Zoning. I had to change my back garage plan from "Garage" to "Garage Workshop". Over 1,000 sq ft ia "garage"  would be considered a "commercial garage" with "commercial" requirements (fire, etc.).

2) HOA - very little is visible from street & what is looks like much less than is. Back garage has cathedral ceilings to maximise lift height and minimise street view (looks more like a garden shed). Large door in back, small door in front. Note: house is about 8 feet above the street which helps drainage and reduces visibility.

 

Also  maximises use of natural rampant Florida vegetation on sides and back to minimise visibility (10x25 RV pad in back - top right) is not visible  and very high so protected from weather.

 

Point I am trying to make that much is possible even when thought not but requires A Lot of planning (particularly to comply with HOA covenants) and may have to give up a few things (do not have a swimming pool). Also took 30 years to accomplish piece by piece. One car garage was last added.

 

ps am not good at "green" but try to keep front OK. One thing we have A Lot of is sand.

 

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[JACK M]

Enough doors that you never have to jockey stuff around to get any other rig out.

I prefer a door for each vehicle bay.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

There are other things to think about. One is insulation. If you are planning to have a climate controlled building, insulation is a must. You’ll have two options, fiberglass rolls and spray foam. Fiberglass rolls are installed as the metal in being put on. If you plan on using spray foam, you should put on house wrap before the metal goes on. That way if a piece of siding gets damaged, you can just unscrew it and your insurance stays in place. If you it’s going to be just dry storage, put the bubble wrap under the room metal so any condensation doesn’t rain down everywhere and will be directed out to the eves. I’m using the bubble wrap and house wrap. I’m not planning on insulating at this time. 
 

Think about floor drains and restrooms. Some places require an inceptor on all garage floor drains. They don’t want the oils to get to their treatment plant are plug up the sewer lines. You don’t want them in your septic tank either. Restrooms are nice to have to wash up before you go back to the house for the night. Just remember that your other half probably won’t be cleaning out there. Restrooms will need some attention from time to time. 

 

Once you have the shell up and doors in, you’ll be weather tight. This may be all you wanted or the budget allows. All of the following can be done as time and budget allows. You can buy whatever when it’s on sale to finish out the inside. 
 

The next thing is electric, Lights and receptacles. You’ll want some kind of lights at least when it’s dark outside. LEDs are still coming down in price and are quite efficient. They can produce a lot of light. Placement of then will be your preference. Generally there are several types, general, task, or landscape. I’m planning on mostly general. Definitely going to put up some outside lights at doorways with motion sensors. A good electrician can help with spacing on lights and receptacles even if you are dong the wiring yourself. They will also know the codes that apply to your location. Don’t forget the big receptacles for welders, air compressors and such. Make sure you put in a large enough electric panel for all your needs and some extra. You may want to add something in the future. You just never know. I’m planning on wiring mine myself. I also know several electricians I can talk to if needed. 

A liner and ceiling can really help with lighting. Most pole barns that have a liner in them use a bright white metal siding. Some times if it’s a tall barn, they will only go up 8-10’ above the floor on the sides. Some people also use osb. It’s flatter than the metal and you can hang just about anything within reason with a nail or screw. All the ones I’ve seen were painted white to help with lighting. 
 

if your going to use it for a shop, you need to think and plan your layout. This must include everything you are going to have inside. This will help in determining where lights and receptacles and even air and water will be. Layout is very important. Just remember that the best payed plans can go h@ll in a handbag in a heartbeat. 
 

The best advice is plan plan plan. Do your homework. You’ll need to find a place to get all materials as well as companies to do the work. There’s not too many people out there that can do every part of a barn by themselves. 
 

I’ll post some more pictures as things are being done

[jan arnett (2)]

toilet, urinal, sink.  beer refrigerator. several floor drains.  smoke and co detectors tied into the house,  sprinklers.  security system.  internet router.

 

[jan arnett (2)]

I would install an external strobe light connected to your fire alarm and security system, make sure you install flood lights on each coroner and a motion sensor light over the entrance door.  I would also install a small roof over the door so you do not have water running down your neck while opening the door.  Make sure you have enough service for your welder and run your air lines while you are building

 and make sure you have water taps at each corner of the building.

[auburnseeker]

6 hours ago, JACK M said:

Enough doors that you never have to jockey stuff around to get any other rig out.

I prefer a door for each vehicle bay.

Or wide enough with one huge center door so you can park them down the sides and leave the center bay open which in a worse case scenario could be used to store something big in the winter like a motor home or boat or even a daily driver.  Doors are also expensive if you are going custom and a terrible heat loss in cold climates.  If you have an unlimited budget,  the door per car would be great. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

23 hours ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

The pole barn kit I chose and was delivered yesterday is from Dandi. It is a wood structure that will look like a steel one. It has vaulted girders.

 

Hubbie, what do you mean by "vaulted girders?"

That's a term I wouldn't expect to hear for a garage.

Do you mean scissor trusses (see first picture), or

glued-laminated rigid timber frames (second picture)?

The former are common, usually spaced every 2 feet

or for pole buildings, more often 4 feet;  the latter

would be unusual for a budget-conscious garage.

If you clarify, I can give more recommendations.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[padgett]

Beg to differ: "If you have an unlimited budget,  the door per car would be great. " Always focused on a door per car but also raised a family (only cats left) and was a salaryman my whole career.  Does help to be a Scot and have few other expenses. Now have two double doors and two singles for six cars. All additions put together were less than the price of my '12 Jeep tow car. Did much of the interiors myself

 

Are just an interior door away and just requires a very effective use of space to get all in a small footprint with low visibility. With planning many can do the same. Does help to stay in the same place for a long time.

[Larry Schramm]

On 5/2/2020 at 11:09 AM, padgett said:

First rule of the auto hobby: it always expands to fill all available space.

 

Totally agree!!!!!

 

 

 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

John, it’s more like the second picture. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Hubbie, I see from an internet search that Indiana

uses a derivative of the International Building Code

series, including the International Residential Code.

 

Please be aware and alert that the roof snow load in that

code may be dangerously inadequate.  It certainly is for

Pennsylvania.  We had numerous roof collapses during

a snowy winter.  You need to have the roof designed for

proper snow load in order for your building and vehicles

to be safe and not destroyed.  Your building supplier

may not know this, and they may want to give you the lowest

possible price so that their product was "competitive,"

going no higher than the inadequate code minimums.

 

The culprit is the formula used for roof snow load.

The code takes the "ground snow load," measured in pounds

per square foot, and multiplies it by some reduction factors

to figure the "roof snow load."  In my observation, the

ground snow load should not be reduced.

 

Your supplier (and their engineer) are the ones who are

ultimately responsible for the design.  However, if your

area is like Penna., you can't count on them to know.

[gossp]

I live less than 20 miles from this build. When’s the barn raising party?

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

6 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Hubbie, I see from an internet search that Indiana

uses a derivative of the International Building Code

series, including the International Residential Code.

 

Please be aware and alert that the roof snow load in that

code may be dangerously inadequate.  It certainly is for

Pennsylvania.  We had numerous roof collapses during

a snowy winter.  You need to have the roof designed for

proper snow load in order for your building and vehicles

to be safe and not destroyed.  Your building supplier

may not know this, and they may want to give you the lowest

possible price so that their product was "competitive,"

going no higher than the inadequate code minimums.

 

The culprit is the formula used for roof snow load.

The code takes the "ground snow load," measured in pounds

per square foot, and multiplies it by some reduction factors

to figure the "roof snow load."  In my observation, the

ground snow load should not be reduced.

 

Your supplier (and their engineer) are the ones who are

ultimately responsible for the design.  However, if your

area is like Penna., you can't count on them to know.

John, the county I live in required me to purchase engineered stamped blueprints before issuing my permit. 

 

6 hours ago, gossp said:

I live less than 20 miles from this build. When’s the barn raising party?

As of now, we are planning on starting on May 11. I will be moving the barn material closer to the pad starting tonight. You are more than welcome to come and see. PM me for address. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

John, the county I live in required me to purchase engineered stamped blueprints before issuing my permit. 

 

Hubbie, that's good;  but it's not sufficient if your code

has the reduced roof-snow-load provisions.  Not all engineers

(at least in Pennsylvania) know the inadequacy of the

code's snow loads.  The building company's engineer

may have thought he was doing well if he was following

the building code.

 

You should contact the building company, and get--

in writing--a list of the "design loads" of your building.  

Tell them, specifically, you need it to list the ROOF snow load

AND ground snow load.

 

This is not just a little nicety to have.  It will enable you (or an

experienced engineer) to make a proper assessment.

It is very important.

Edited May 4, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

Having built 2 car barn/shop buildings, one in FLorida in 1979 & one in North Carolina in 2008, I learned a few valuble things ahead of time that I can share.

1.  They make a 18' double garage door (Standard is 16")  18' allows 3 car access to interior spaces. 

2.   Build double deep spaces for side door access.  

3.   A hip roof is more neighborly than a ridge roof, and insurance is cheaper (wind)

4.   Scissor trusses add volume and are lift friendly.

5.   Blown in insulation is great.

6.   If you use floor drains, the EPA has rules for that too.

7.   Carports on the sides or ends are great for dirty work, project storage and lawn equipment.   

8.   The more electrical outlets you have, the happier you'll be.

9.   Know where you lift will be and pour thicker concrete there for the posts to anchor.

10.  Bigger is better. 

11.  Metal section divisions in the concrete slab.  Instead of cuts in the concrete lke Hubbie has, my concrete guy put metal

        12' x 12' secrional dividers in the forms and poured the concrete to level with them.   They provided a crack joint with the

         metal for crack lines.   The metal  was waved so that sections could not settle or lift.   Wiith them being level wi ther edges,

         there was no bowl effect in my flat floor either.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Paul Dobbin
Spill edit, added #11. (see edit history)

[padgett]

When I said "cathedral ceiling" I should have said "scissors trusses". Was 25 years ago. In retrospect should have used the scissors trusses in working area where I have a lift and regular to allow a second floor over the storage area.

 

I recall the winter of 1973-74 after many homes had insulation added (was living in Chesterfield, IN at time) and roofs started collapsing. A lot depends on the environment under the roof.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Well here’s today’s progress. Not much will happen till next week as far as putting up the barn. I need to move the lumber closer. Before I do that, I need to fill the ruts left be the concrete trucks. I’m going to start next week putting it up. Thanks Mike 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

12 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Hubbie, that's good;  but it's not sufficient if your code

has the reduced roof-snow-load provisions.  Not all engineers

(at least in Pennsylvania) know the inadequacy of the

code's snow loads.  The building company's engineer

may have thought he was doing well if he was following

the building code.

 

You should contact the building company, and get--

in writing--a list of the "design loads" of your building.  

Tell them, specifically, you need it to list the ROOF snow load

AND ground snow load.

 

This is not just a little nicety to have.  It will enable you (or an

experienced engineer) to make a proper assessment.

It is very important.

I checked the paperwork I have from the engineer. He used the same load for ground as the roof

[John_S_in_Penna]

Now you can rest with more assurance!

And I'm sure you're looking forward to having

all that extra storage space for cars and parts.

 

People follow projects like yours because

everyone dreams about space like that.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I spent the last two evenings moving ( staging ) the barn closer to the new concrete. I’ve been using me father in laws New Holland Bommer 25. I have all the lumber moved. I tried to move the roof metal, but the tractor isn’t strong enough to pick it up so it will stay there until it’s needed. I’m looking to getting started on Monday 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Well today was the start of the barn building part. We got a late start and it doesn’t look like we got a lot done, but we did. The weather was cold. It rained and sleeted some. The wind was blowing as well. Tomorrow is to be warmer and sunny. We are hoping to get the rest of the columns and beams up. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Mike "Hubbie" Stearns (see edit history)

[3macboys]

35 minutes ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

Well today was the start of the barn building part. We got a late start and it doesn’t look like we got a lot done, but we did. The weather was cold. It rained and sleeted some. The wind was blowing as well. Tomorrow is to be warmer and sunny. We are hoping to get the rest of the columns and beams up. 

 

 

Now that's why everyone should own a fire truck!  

[gossp]

That is glorious!

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

Well today was much nicer than yesterday as far as weather goes. Mainly sunny and not much wind. We only got the next column and beam assembled and up. It takes about 2 hours just to build it. We installed the wall girls and most of the roof  perlins. We have 5 more to install tomorrow. There will be one more column and beam and them the end wall left. I’m hoping to start the metal by Wednesday late afternoon or Thursday morning. They are calling for rain Thursday till Sunday. 

[gossp]

I sent a pic of your lifting rig to the middle Balser, he knew exactly whose truck it was. 

[Paul Dobbin]

I didn't  think to call friends at the Fire Department in 2008 when I built this 56'X36' car barn.  I hired a Carane for $100 an hour with 

a 4 hour minimum and set all the 28 sicssor trusses in less than 4 hours.  I woould have saved $400.00.

 

 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

4 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

I didn't  think to call friends at the Fire Department in 2008 when I built this 56'X36' car barn.  I hired a Carane for $100 an hour with 

a 4 hour minimum and set all the 28 sicssor trusses in less than 4 hours.  I woould have saved $400.00.

 

 

I didn’t call the fire department. I own that ladder truck. It cost a lot more than the $400 you spent.