Siezed wheel cylinders

[DBKissel]

Hi everyone,

 

I just bought a 1927 Kissel Brougham with 4 wheel hydraulic exterior band brakes.  Since I have a 25 Kissel with similar brakes I thought rebuilding them would not be too difficult.  These wheel cylinders are frozen beyond belief.  I have soaked them in lacquer thinner for 3 days and tried several ideas to get the pistons out.  1 is free and 3 are not.  YouTube videos suggest connecting a grease gun with fittings to hydraulically press them out.  No luck on this either.  I tried propane torch heating on the housing for a while and that did nothing.  The pistons are pot metal and housing is steel.  I am considering a strong acid bath for a few days to eat the corrosion.  Worse case is I would need to have pistons machined [in steel] if the pot metal deteriorates. Does anyone have any suggestions? 

[46 woodie]

I would try to press them out with a hydraulic press and then send them out for stainless steel sleeves. I'm sure the "pot metal" has expanded and they probably are useless anyway.

[mike brady]

I would heat all the grease out and submerge them in Evaporust for a few days......the pistons should then press out easily.

[Dandy Dave]

Surprised that the grease trick did not work. Agree with 46 Woodie. Your not going to have much to work with if the barrels are that full of rust anyway. Look up Apple Hydraulics.https://www.applehydraulicsonline.com/  They're way out on the Island as I remember. Dandy Dave! 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[mike6024]

46 minutes ago, DBKissel said:

connecting a grease gun with fittings to hydraulically press them out. 

 

I have done similar, but by connecting a brake line, and a brake or clutch master cylinder,  mounted on a bench vise and pumped brake fluid into them till they push out.

 

[keiser31]

24 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

Surprised that the grease trick did not work. Agree with 46 Woodie. Your not going to have much to work with if the barrels are that full of rust anyway. Look up Apple Hydraulics.https://www.applehydraulicsonline.com/  They're way out on the Island as I remember. Dandy Dave! 

Yep....this.

[Frank DuVal]

Or make new ones out of aluminum.

 

Drill these out if they are pot metal, drills easy! Single ended ones like Chrysler used are harder to drill out, since you can only go in so far. Double ended ones just drill through.

 

I would contact Applehydraulics before I started drilling in case they have another idea that is better for them.😉

[viv w]

Acid will eat the pot metal or aluminum very quickly, not recommended. Try soaking them in water for several weeks. Water penetrates and desolves rust better than any penetrating oil. If the pistons are in fact pot metal, then the chances are that they have started to disintegrate and have swollen into the cylinders, in which case you may have to make new ones out of aluminum.

 Before you try pressing the pistons out, a word of caution, some of these early hydraulic brakes with external contracting bands, have a block of steel on three pegs that fit into a groove in the centre of the cylinder. These steel blocks are there to seperate the pistons and can NOT be pressed out without destroying the cylinder. My 28 chrysler 52 had cylinders with this block and I destroyed a cylinder trying to press the pistons thru the cylinder.

[mike6024]

there is also the candle wax trick, heat the housing all the way around with the torch, then apply the candle to melt, all around the circumference of the piston, and the wax gets sucked in.

 

and I've hit these on a vise with the jaws open, so the housing hits the vise, but the piston does not, so the inertia of the piston may cause it to come out.

 

 

[mike6024]

3,000 psi. No different than just connecting it to the brake master cylinder.

 

 

[KRK Sr.]

DB, Wills Ste Claire uses this same Lockheed brake system. I machined all new pistons from Alum. and got rid of all the original pistons in the system. All wheel cylinders were sleeved in stainless steel back to orig. bores. I have a few un-restore cylinders and arms if you are missing them. I have helped other Kissel owners in the past. I will check this weekend and see if I kept any original pistons you can use as a pattern. I also have a few reservoirs for up on the firewall. Karl

[Ivan Saxton]

The best penetrant /lubricant is ATF with a small addition of Acetone.  The secret is acetone has a hydrophobic end which links to ATF, and a hydrophilic end which seeks the metal.  Just simple basic principles.  Early diecast high zinc material causes trouble wherever you find it.  Expansion with ageing will cause negative clearance.  If you bore the piston so you thin it down, you can carefully heat it enough to be plastic it expands and in reality shrinks.  When it cools it should come out easily.  The new piston should slide freely in the bore, which may mean diametral clearance of perhaps three thou.    

[edinmass]

If the grease didn't push them out, your problem may be pot metal swelling as well as rust. I agree with Karl. Drill out, sleeve, and make new ones. Ed

[ron hausmann]

DB - I have the chassis parts from three or four late twenties Kissels in my stash of parts cars. So if you wreck parts I probably have replacements to suit. These would be unrestored as-found-in-junkyard quality, probably frozen, but useable.

let me know if I can help.

ron

[Guest]

 The first thing that I do when rebuilding wheel cylinders is to remove the bleeder screw.

 If that is frozen so much that I break it, I buy new cylinders.

 It saves a lot of time.

[DBKissel]

4 hours ago, KRK Sr. said:

DB, Wills Ste Claire uses this same Lockheed brake system. I machined all new pistons from Alum. and got rid of all the original pistons in the system. All wheel cylinders were sleeved in stainless steel back to orig. bores. I have a few un-restore cylinders and arms if you are missing them. I have helped other Kissel owners in the past. I will check this weekend and see if I kept any original pistons you can use as a pattern. I also have a few reservoirs for up on the firewall. Karl

Thanks Karl- I'll keep you and all others posted on my progress!

[DBKissel]

16 hours ago, DBKissel said:

Hi everyone,

 

I just bought a 1927 Kissel Brougham with 4 wheel hydraulic exterior band brakes.  Since I have a 25 Kissel with similar brakes I thought rebuilding them would not be too difficult.  These wheel cylinders are frozen beyond belief.  I have soaked them in lacquer thinner for 3 days and tried several ideas to get the pistons out.  1 is free and 3 are not.  YouTube videos suggest connecting a grease gun with fittings to hydraulically press them out.  No luck on this either.  I tried propane torch heating on the housing for a while and that did nothing.  The pistons are pot metal and housing is steel.  I am considering a strong acid bath for a few days to eat the corrosion.  Worse case is I would need to have pistons machined [in steel] if the pot metal deteriorates. Does anyone have any suggestions? 

 

 

Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions.  I will try several and advise later what the solution was to this issue.

[DBKissel]

2 hours ago, Ivan Saxton said:

The best penetrant /lubricant is ATF with a small addition of Acetone.  The secret is acetone has a hydrophobic end which links to ATF, and a hydrophilic end which seeks the metal.  Just simple basic principles.  Early diecast high zinc material causes trouble wherever you find it.  Expansion with ageing will cause negative clearance.  If you bore the piston so you thin it down, you can carefully heat it enough to be plastic it expands and in reality shrinks.  When it cools it should come out easily.  The new piston should slide freely in the bore, which may mean diametral clearance of perhaps three thou.    

This sounds like a simple plan.  I'll dry one out and go to your suggested mixture for a few days -4 5 to see what happens.  Worse case should be to carefully cut the piston lip off one side and hydraulically press everything out the other end.  [This will be near my last resort]  Thx

[60FlatTop]

I recognized that Mercedes guy in the vid instantly, he almost talked me into buying a Merc.

 

My first thought on the wheel cylinders was to drop them into an ultrasonc cleaner for a couple of days, but jewelers aren't too open to that.

 

Gentle treatment can surprise you. Get a 4 to 6 oz. ball peen hammer and hold the cylinder loosely in the palm of your had. Rap the cylinder with the hammer using wrist action like you were ringing a bell. Just keep it up, imagining the waves radiating through the metal.

 

When you get to the point where you are ready to give up, continue. If the casting has not distorted to block the piston it should push out. Don't whack it, just the light bell ringing will do it.

 

Years ago I serviced radiator steam traps in hundred year old buildings with that technique. The plumbers would come in with 3' pipe wrenches and tear up the hex heads on the old caps and end up cutting pipes and all kinds of hard work. I might patiently tap for half an hour, listening, and when I heard the right sound, just put my fingers on the scarred up mess they made and unscrew it. Most didn't have the patience to do it, and the bosses didn't think the tools were manly enough to look like "real work". But I don't remember any I couldn't take apart. I would put a couple hours into it if your parts were here. And I still have that hammer.

Bernie

Edited February 21, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

My 1928 Graham-Paige has a star lock in the center of the cylinders, you can not press out the pistons without wrecking the cylinder.  It drove me crazy the first time I saw them.  It looks like a thick quarter, with an allen head set screw, you turn in the set screw and it pushes out three locks, they lock in a center grove.   Thinking back I don't think there are return springs inside, just the external ones?  

 

 

Take your time yours look better than mine did, Lockheed brakes, keep soaking them, most likely aluminum pistons (mine are) I used a needle nose vice grip to hold the center, put a screwdriver thrugh the vice grip and turned them till they screwed out, they cleaned up great, honed them and put them back together.  I use silicone disk break lube on all my moving parts, works great, I have one Graham that I drive every other year, have never had a problem with sticky breaks in 8 years now.  Good Luck!

 

 

I have a copy of the "Vintage Veteran Break Manual" it should have pictures, I will check.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[DBKissel]

Thank for taking the time to sketch and explain.  Since I have one that came free, I can see that I have  a straight bore- no lock and it does have a spring.  I like the needle nose with screwdriver idea.  Thx

[Guest]

If you are trying to get a piston out of a master cylinder, insert a tap into the piston hole where the push rod goes and turn the tap, cutting threads. When the tap bottoms out, put it out with a pair of vice grips.😃

[DBKissel]

Good idea- yes I have to work on that item too!

[DBKissel]

23 hours ago, DBKissel said:

Hi everyone,

 

I just bought a 1927 Kissel Brougham with 4 wheel hydraulic exterior band brakes.  Since I have a 25 Kissel with similar brakes I thought rebuilding them would not be too difficult.  These wheel cylinders are frozen beyond belief.  I have soaked them in lacquer thinner for 3 days and tried several ideas to get the pistons out.  1 is free and 3 are not.  YouTube videos suggest connecting a grease gun with fittings to hydraulically press them out.  No luck on this either.  I tried propane torch heating on the housing for a while and that did nothing.  The pistons are pot metal and housing is steel.  I am considering a strong acid bath for a few days to eat the corrosion.  Worse case is I would need to have pistons machined [in steel] if the pot metal deteriorates. Does anyone have any suggestions? 

 

 

UPDATE!!  Thank all of you for your suggestions.  I am embarrassed to say the grease gun approach worked great on all 3 cylinders [AFTER I loosened the bleeder stem/valve to allow the grease pressure to do it's thing] Yikes, simple things...    I Got 1 piston out that way and then could use an arbor press and spacer to push the the other one out.  Thanks again!

[broker-len]

close all the ports except one-----screw a air fitting and full up your compressor      the air will flow at least one piston out    put some king of a cup on each end to catch the piston and put in vise       again    the piston will come out like a bullet

[Dandy Dave]

Glad the hear that the grease thing worked. Yes, It works better if you remove the trapped air. Was thinking, These look similar to the brake system on that 1925 Cunningham I worked on a while back. Dandy Dave!