30DodgePanel

Musk's Cyber Truck speed bump

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3 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

Seems I remember a whole bus line running off of over head wires in Seattle, I recall as a kid that once in awhile one of the followers would fall off of the cable and the driver would get out with a pole and hook it back up.

I tend to avoid any down towns any more, especially one as big as Seattle, but those busses may still be in use.

 

Here in Vancouver B.C. we still use electric buses . Lots of diesel ones as well but the electric routes have been in service for many years, probably the same era as Seattle for the original instillation. 

 

Greg in Canada

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Baltimore used to have overhead trolley busses, lotsa sparks when they crossed junctions. Seem to remember some electric interurbans that went out to Towson. Pennsy was mainly electric between Philly and DC, Florida Special was pulled by GG1s. Lionel also had a GG1 but the pantographs were not functional. Only real difference between the fifties and now is that Amtrak is slower.

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Last year when I was in Boston caught a Trolley Bus on the Silver Line from South Station to the Airport. It was somewhat of a chameleon, although it didn’t change colour, it changed motive power about halfway to the airport! Operated as an electric trolley bus for the first part of the journey, complete with overhead power transmitted by means of a pantograph mechanism. Then, it stopped, switching to its diesel engine to provide power for the remainder of the journey!

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11 hours ago, ply33 said:

Yikes! For a daily driver I want something that sips gas, is reasonably comfortable and, of course, reliable. My 2004 car averaged just under 45 MPG in the 201,000 miles I drove it. I'd still be driving it if it hadn't been totaled. My new car is averaging about 83 MPG so far at 25,000 miles. Though I see lots of them everyday, I can't imagine having a daily driver that got such lousy mileage and is hard to park because of its size. Yes, my '33 gets between 14 and 18 MPG depending on how it is driven, but that is basically a toy for when I feel like puttering around some back roads. Not something for going to work and doing errands in (though I do some errands in it when it isn't raining and the mood strikes me).

Yikes for a daily driver, but I don't need to drive daily. Did have a 10 year old 30+mpg Saab for a daily driving mpg that I turned into the 18 year old Tahoe with memory power seats because I'm 6'3", the little lady is 4'10", I can't hardly get behind the wheel of her little 4cyl Dodge,  I'm now fully retired, didn't have room to keep both my old cars, her car, the new 45 year old boat, the snowmobile trailer and  the materials for building my new toy box. Now I don't have to play musical cars to clean the driveway every time it snows and my 30 year old 25+mpg ragtop becomes my summertime daily driver.

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Here is some of what is left of Henry Ford's electric railroad. During class, I used to see some of these outside the window of Allen Park high school.

 

" Pennroad's analysis determined operating costs could be reduced -- by converting the line back to steam power. "

 

image.png.99d45e318f715811177fd84f28e10e16.png

 

https://localwiki.org/wyandotte/Henry_Ford's_electric_railroad

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"The experiment -- which involved a high voltage line strung above the arches, through a substation-like structure on top of each engine to step down the voltage, then convert it to DC current which actually ran the engine ...."

 

Overhead wire like a city bus.

 

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45 minutes ago, 30DodgePanel said:

For guys that use their trucks for towing these are always interesting reads to follow...

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/

 

Interesting read, thanks for sharing it. 

Cutting the life of the charge in half makes sense, I get around 20 + or -  mpg with my diesel 2500, once the trailer is connected I drop to around 10 + or -.  As far as the charge efficiency towing I am curious  to see what improvements they make if any. 

I really don't think anyone who seriously tows would consider a light duty truck to do it with regardless of the fuel.  In our game there are not too many people towing rigs under 5,000 lbs. Unfortunately to many times people see a hitch receiver and think they tow anything safely.

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You’re welcome John. Check out the video too if you haven’t already..

 

I thought the summarizations at the end of the video ties it all up nicely for both sides of the debate. Without at least 3 times the battery output needed for the example (1% grade x 100 miles towing) they will have a hard time prying my Ram away.

 

Also like how it supports our side of the debate with the three glaring factors that keep the EV from ruling the marketplace worldwide: The cost, effectiveness, and design. 

 

Now let’s hear from those trigonometry majors that can calculate where we are with a real life grade for those of us who travel long distances across the country in our pickups... please factor something like a 6-9% grade in the mountains.

 

Example:

Flagstaff is approximately 145 miles or 2 1/2 hrs from Phoenix while starting elevation goes from 1124 in Phoenix to 7000 in Flagstaff. Throw in temperature changes using air conditioning in summer months then snow or minus 32 in winter at higher elevations and it’s easy to see that EV Towing is way off in reality. 

 

Flatlanders or those on islands like Manhattan ??? Sure one can understand the immediate capability and need for it but this should really tell us how far they need to improve before it’s feasible for the average truck owners who aren’t on islands. My guess is the three times battery ( that was calculated in the video) is going to be way low. I hate math but I’d bet the need is actually closer to a fifteen times better battery capacity will be needed to endure a basic trip like I’ve described above. 

 

Let me know what you all come up with.. very curious to know

 

 

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I would like to hear from a Tesla owner who drove up and over the I-5 Grapevine north of Los Angeles, how much charge was depleted from the battery pack.

 

Someone (Tesla owner) wrote this: 15 mile climb depletes 40 miles of range.

 

 

Going south from Tejon at 65mph you will use 40 miles of range to travel (climb) 15 miles (top of the grade) ... you will recoup 17 miles of the 25 you lost (on the climb) >> on your decent. So not net net... you'll loose about 8.

 

Edited by mike6024 (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

I would like to hear from a Tesla owner who drove up and over the I-5 Grapevine north of Los Angeles, how much charge was depleted from the battery pack.

 

 

Would a gasoline powered vehicle also loose range in this drive?  I would assume the fuel consumption would also increase over a flat land drive so the question you post has two sides to the answer.  The other point to to consider is the dynamic braking that adds to the charge level while traveling downhill.  The gasoline vehicle has no mechanism to recoup any gas lost.  Got to look at the whole picture.

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I can tell you this. There are battery powered bicycles, and hills kill them. They either don't have the power to climb, or the battery goes dead quick. While they may work reasonably well on flat land. Weight is very important on a bicycle. A bike to climb hills would need an unreasonably big heavy battery.

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12 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Terry, I was just posing a question. Geez.

Yes, and a good question at that.   I’m from an engineering background so my approach to questions sometimes goes into more depth than perhaps it should at times.  The result of years of habit I guess.  In understanding emerging technology it takes many questions and looks at ideas to get a feel for how things will work out.  No disrespect intended in any way.

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15 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

I can tell you this. There are battery powered bicycles, and hills kill them. They either don't have the power to climb, or the battery goes dead quick. While they may work reasonably well on flat land. Weight is very important on a bicycle. A bike to climb hills would need an unreasonably big heavy battery.

Electric motorcycles are facing this very dilemma.  I am watching HD efforts here and some of the smaller companies trying to figure this out.

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What happens with the EV during heavier than normal loading is not the same as the effect on an I/C vehicle. The higher than normal EV current draw results in high inductance and creates heating, which increases resistance (think blown fuse over time), it's essentially a death spiral for the battery under these conditions. The harder it works, it's efficiency drops relative to the load, it's not a straight line on the graph. The EV is at a much larger disadvantage than simple halving the range like the I/C under heavier than normal loading. The I/C does not suffer from this, with ye olde thermostat out front keeping the engine at operating temperature, just keep pouring on the fuel, nothing changes until it runs out of fuel.

 

3 hours ago, John348 said:

I really don't think anyone who seriously tows would consider a light duty truck to do it with regardless of the fuel.  In our game there are not too many people towing rigs under 5,000 lbs.

 

::waving hand:: A "light duty" truck nowadays, 1500 Silverado, F150 etc, have 8500 pound or better towing capacity. A 5000 pound trailer would be easily handled behind either. These ain't our Dad's half-tons.

 

My old half ton 5.3 Litre (modern 327ci), six speed, Silverado handles my big heavy steel 8-9000 pound Tugboat no problem at all, I've had it all over NE United States. Over mountains etc. pulls it no problem at all, keep the Debit Card handy though. :) She loves the open road and she's a heavy drinker. One meet I went to about 200 miles away, I towed the tug and had the bed loaded with firewood. Knowing how to drive, helps a whole lot.

 

-Ron

 

 

 

 

 

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Regenerative braking on an interstate? It takes a lot of energy to propel a 4000 pound vehicle at interstate speeds with wind and road resistance playing in, it is doubtful there is anything left to convert to "Regenerative deceleration". Try it in a normal I/C vehicle. All of these vehicles nowadays coast in that situation, the transmission disengages and is another way they increase fuel efficiency. Unless one is going down a steep grade. Just about anywhere one travels, if the throttle is returned the vehicle immediately starts slowing down. So to maintain speed with traffic some acceleration is typically always required. Not much opportunity for any sort of regenerative scenario.

 

-Ron

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13 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 A "light duty" truck nowadays, 1500 Silverado, F150 etc, have 8500 pound or better towing capacity. A 5000 pound trailer would be easily handled behind either. These ain't our Dad's half-tons.

 

I was not referring to 1500's I was referring to the smaller class "trucks" and SUV's. The ones with the 5,500 lb capacity

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8 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

Regenerative braking on an interstate? It takes a lot of energy to propel a 4000 pound vehicle at interstate speeds with wind and road resistance playing in, it is doubtful there is anything left to convert to "Regenerative deceleration". Try it in a normal I/C vehicle. All of these vehicles nowadays coast in that situation, the transmission disengages and is another way they increase fuel efficiency. Unless one is going down a steep grade. Just about anywhere one travels, if the throttle is returned the vehicle immediately starts slowing down. So to maintain speed with traffic some acceleration is typically always required. Not much opportunity for any sort of regenerative scenario.

 

-Ron

The steep grade was the situation mentioned and the use of regenerative braking applied to recouping some loss of rage was the response.  Level driving does not permit for much regenerative charging. Aerodynamics in an EV is more critical when maximizing travel.  The less than beautiful wheelcovers on a Tesla Model 3 add about 10% to its range.  Everyone in the auto industry wants to improve efficiency, the cars that turn themselves on and off in stop and go driving are one way for an IC vehicle. Electric vehicle doesn’t need this feature, in fact the low speed creep you get on an IC vehicle when it’s running is something that can be programmed in to an EV if you like the feature.  

 

Also, EV design incorporates cooling for the battery pack to diminish degradation of the battery efficiency.  Unfortunately for the Nissan Leaf they did not do their homework on the battery cooling which caused many of them to have the battery pack die prematurely, a condition they have since fixed but are often called out for their slow response to the issue.  The battery powered boys are now playing in the big leagues of the automotive industry with many talented people working to address all the issues we discuss here.  The big guns like Ford, GM VW, Audi, MB and others are in the game now, anything can happen.

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26 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

Regenerative braking on an interstate? It takes a lot of energy to propel a 4000 pound vehicle at interstate speeds with wind and road resistance playing in, it is doubtful there is anything left to convert to "Regenerative deceleration". Try it in a normal I/C vehicle. All of these vehicles nowadays coast in that situation, the transmission disengages and is another way they increase fuel efficiency. Unless one is going down a steep grade. Just about anywhere one travels, if the throttle is returned the vehicle immediately starts slowing down. So to maintain speed with traffic some acceleration is typically always required. Not much opportunity for any sort of regenerative scenario.

 

-Ron

 

I happen to have driven Prius vehicles (3 different generations) over the Grapevine on I-5 and on other mountain roads and freeways. I can assure you that if you have the cruise control set to anywhere near the speed limit you will have regenerative charging of the battery on the downhills. I can only assume that a full EV could do that much longer, that is recover more energy, than a hybrid (the hybrid battery gets full so the car starts to use engine compression and/or brakes to keep the speed down).

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4 hours ago, TerryB said:

EV design incorporates cooling for the battery pack to diminish degradation of the battery efficiency.

 

That is likely more so for long term preservation and to prevent fires. I was referring to the motor windings, leads and other high amperage carrying components of the system. In reference to pulling a heavy trailer.

 

-Ron

4 hours ago, ply33 said:

I can only assume that a full EV could do that much longer, that is recover more energy,

 

Let's be careful, we are swaying ever closer to the elusive "perpetual motion" :)

 

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On 12/6/2019 at 6:21 PM, ply33 said:

 

I happen to have driven Prius vehicles (3 different generations) over the Grapevine on I-5 and on other mountain roads and freeways. I can assure you that if you have the cruise control set to anywhere near the speed limit you will have regenerative charging of the battery on the downhills. I can only assume that a full EV could do that much longer, that is recover more energy, than a hybrid (the hybrid battery gets full so the car starts to use engine compression and/or brakes to keep the speed down).

 

Thanks, good to know. This and other reasons are probably why Toyota is rumored to be working on a hybrid Tundra to be released around 2021.

The information I have seen indicates that the capacities (Cargo, Towing & Tongue Weight) will be increased along with a SIGNIFICANT increase in MPG over the current offering. A two motor hybrid system combined with a more efficient gasoline engine should be interesting to see especially when towing. Should be interesting to see when all these trucks come out (New Tundra, Cyber Truck, EV F150, Rivian, etc) as to their ACTUAL capabilities and most of all their ACTUAL costs. Fun times ahead.

Edited by charlier (see edit history)
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