1919 Pierce on BAT

[Brooklyn Beer]

NOT MINE.  A most interesting body style for sure. And such a huge motor to get only 38 HP.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1919-pierce-arrow-motor-company-model-31/?utm_source=dailymail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2019-07-13

 

[mercer09]

how does one know where the car is located?

 

500 cu- pretty sure that is bigger then 38hp..............

[Matt Harwood]

Once again, the "experts" at BaT show their profound ignorance.

 

The 38 horsepower rating was more of a model identifier than an actual reading. Pierce-Arrow experts like Ed and Grimy will surely know much more than I do, but there was the Model 38 (like this one) which was "rated" at 38 horsepower, and the Model 48, which was considerably larger (like 700+ cubic inches?) and it was "rated" at 48 horsepower. Those horsepower numbers, coincidentally, were exactly the same numbers as other large cars like Peerless and Locomobile claimed for their big cars. That leads me to believe that it's not an accurate reflection of the horsepower, but either a legal thing or even a marketing thing, I'm not sure. I would guess this particular car would have closer to 70 or 80 horsepower and the bigger cars would have perhaps 100, although there's really no way to know for sure without strapping it to a dyno. But they were really designed for TORQUE and these giant engines will make massive torque at little more than idle.

 

Back then, they didn't have the ability to use higher compression (fuel limited), or higher RPM, or radical cam profiles and still keep the cars user-friendly, so they simply made the engines bigger. That meant less shifting for the driver, more torque, and easier use around town, which was their only use; nobody was cruising cross-country in a car like this. It was all about effortlessness, minimizing shifting, and making the cars smoother and easier to drive. Bigger engines with huge low-end torque and tall gears achieved that. Even my 1929 Cadillac has 4.75 gears and will idle at a walking pace in high gear and accelerate away cleanly. Before high-speed highway travel, ease of use around town was the primary goal and bigger engines did that far better than smaller engines.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[suchan]

Awesome car!

If I recall correctly, HP rating used to be determined by a formula involving the engine displacement rather than a dyno test, so any engine of certain displacement would be assigned the same HP rating regardless of actual output. It's fair to assume the monster 825 C.I. engine in the Pierce model 66 did a LOT better than 66 HP.

[Brooklyn Beer]

I wonder if you could hot rod an 825 Pierce motor today    Dual quads or 3 deuces.  

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

And such a huge motor to get only 38 HP.

38 power of "horses" Horsepower not SAE HP.  Basically, should be about a 45-50 mile per hour car (all be it a heavy sedan which may bog it down).  And that is why the 50 HP brass/nickle era cars are "big bucks" as they can go 60-65 mph - those Victorians liked to go fast. 

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 minute ago, John_Mereness said:

38 power of "horses" Horsepower not SAE HP.  Basically, should be about a 45-50 mile per hour car (all be it a heavy sedan which may bog it down).  And that is why the 50 HP brass/nickle era cars are "big bucks" as they can go 60-65 mph - those Victorians liked to go fast. 

I can only imagine what the sensation was the first time anyone went 45- 50 mph when the fastest previous speed was in a horse drawn carriage.  Trains withstanding as it really wasn't freedom of personal movement. Must have felt like breaking the sound barrier.

[Grimy]

It is indeed a Series 31 AKA 38 *nominal* hp.  The "38s" (including the dual valve versions for 1919-20) had 414 cid vs the 48's 525 cid and the 66's 825 cid.  The nominal / taxable hp ratings are derived from multiplying the number of cylinders x bore x a constant.  Note that this is a dual valve (4 valves per cylinder) which resulted in a (claimed) 40% brake hp increase over single valve engines of the same displacement. SELLER IS WRONG AS TO DISPLACEMENT--THIS IS A 414 CID ENGINE.

 

I've verified the numbers in PAS records.  Pierce never advertised developed or brake hp through 1920.  However, in PAMCC engineering committee notes published in the PAS magazine The Arrow, I found dyno results of the nominal-48-hp new dual valve engine for 1918 (Series 48-B-5, such as I'm fortunate to own after chasing that specific car since 1998) indicating 121 bhp from the 525 cid dual valve engine.  Accepting the Company's claim of a 40% hp increase by using dual valves, I calculated about 86 bhp for the single-valve *48* (525 cid).  I have not seen comparable information on the 38s, but I can tell you that dual valve 38s are MUCH more sprightly than their single-valve predecessors.  As Matt says, these engines are torque monsters and just love to climb hills.

 

One thing to watch for in 1919-20 cars of both series (31 and 51-- 66 was terminated because the 48 dual valve just about matched its performance) is that PAMCC modified the FOUR-speed (not 3-speed as seller claims) to permit easier shifting by having the transmission free-wheel in 2nd and 3rd.  This means you have no engine braking in those gears!  To me this is NOT acceptable in a heavy 2-wheel-brake car!  Many of the cars have had minor mods to remove the free-wheel effect; I haven't done it and don't know how, but several folks do this.

 

As to weight, bear in mind that Pierce bodies through 1920 are made of flanged cast aluminum panels which are bolted and riveted together, including the cowls; fenders and hoods are steel.  Accordingly, there is minimal wood structure in the bodies, and even closed bodies are lighter than one might expect.

 

And these cars have actual voltage regulation rather than just a cutout!

Edited July 13, 2019 by Grimy
correct typo (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

34 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I can only imagine what the sensation was the first time anyone went 45- 50 mph when the fastest previous speed was in a horse drawn carriage.  Trains withstanding as it really wasn't freedom of personal movement. Must have felt like breaking the sound barrier.

 

I seem to recall that in the early days of motoring there was a legitimate fear that going faster than 60 MPH would kill a normal man.

[Grimy]

I routinely cruise my 1918 48-B-5 at 52-55 mph on freeways, which is about 1725 rpm with 3.53 gears, about 70% of published redline of 2,500 rpm.  At 7'8" tall with top up, it has the aerodynamics of a block wall. It's only necessary to use 1st gear to (1) start on a grade or (2) crawl as in a parade.

[CarNucopia]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Once again, the "experts" at BaT show their profound ignorance.

 

 

I have to say, in BaTs defense, they are explicit about noting the information was provided by the seller. I think this is more a function of avoiding legal hassles then anything else. They continually use qualifiers like “stated”, “according to the seller” and “reportedly”.

 

I actually think this is far better then what the hucksters do on the TV auctions, offering commentary to boost the bidding. If the seller gets it wrong on BaT,  commenters will call him out and the price will often reflect the error/misrepresentation. 

[Matt Harwood]

9 minutes ago, Buick64C said:

 

I have to say, in BaTs defense, they are explicit about noting the information was provided by the seller. I think this is more a function of avoiding legal hassles then anything else. They continually use qualifiers like “stated”, “according to the seller” and “reportedly”.

 

I actually think this is far better then what the hucksters do on the TV auctions, offering commentary to boost the bidding. If the seller gets it wrong on BaT,  commenters will call him out and the price will often reflect the error/misrepresentation. 

 

No, the comments section where just anybody can pick a car to death. They rip a car apart and say things that scare buyers away, yet most know very little about what they're saying. If you don't have a Pagoda SL to sell or maybe a late-model BMW, you can expect guys who know nothing to chime in and tell you all the things wrong with a car, true or not. If you do a BaT auction and it doesn't sell, your car is flat-out doomed on the market.

[CarNucopia]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

No, the comments section where just anybody can pick a car to death. They rip a car apart and say things that scare buyers away, yet most know very little about what they're saying. If you don't have a Pagoda SL to sell or maybe a late-model BMW, you can expect guys who know nothing to chime in and tell you all the things wrong with a car, true or not. If you do a BaT auction and it doesn't sell, your car is flat-out doomed on the market.

 

What you are saying does happen, but it’s pretty rare that it effects the results of the auction. I can only think of one auction where the car got unfairly slagged to the point of effecting the outcome. Most cars I see bring more money then I would expect. I say that as a person who’s on that site daily, has bid on many cars and bought some too. The format is structured in the buyers favor, which is why I think it’s the best intermediary out there. Plus, I learn a ton about cars I was unfamiliar with.

 

If I were selling, I’m not sure if I’d use it. First, you need to have the right kind of car. They cater primarily to the tastes of Gen-Xers and Millennials. It’s great for Euro and Japanese cars, not so good for ‘Merican ones. Most of the Buicks listed don’t sell.

 

The point you make about a car that fails to sell being doomed seems valid. (Curious, do you have person experience with this?) The big drawback to selling there, IMO,  is they leave the VIN up indefinitely.  A car that fails does have a very public “market value” assigned to it.

 

Regardless, that’s what the future of the hobby looks like.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Brooklyn,

   Matt is right about the Pierce-Arrow 38, Peerless 38, or Locomobile 48, etc. model names being only loosely related to horsepower, and more of a model identifier. They used "R.A.C." horsepower ratings back in the 1910-1919 time period, sometimes called A.L.A.M. or S.A.E. ratings. You take bore diameter squared x number of cylinders divided by a random number...and arrive at something used mostly for tax purposes, not to measure engine power. I used the formula to rate a 427 Cu. In. V-8 once, and came up with 57.79 h.p., 25% less if it had been a 6-cyl. with the same bore.

DxDxn/ 2.5

D= bore  

n= # of cyl.

divided by  2.5

 

Peerless 48s were about 578 cu. in. and have been measured at about 90 brake h.p. Installed in 35-foot Elco yachts, the t-head engines would propel them at 22 mph, a fast clip for 1912.

Edited July 13, 2019 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[bdc]

BAT is a great site to sell a postwar car, especially after 1965, but dont bring a prewar cause they never get a fair price. If you have a Porsche you're in luck  cause they seems to be the hottest commodity on BAT.

[Brooklyn Beer]

5 hours ago, jeff_a said:

 

 

Peerless 48s were about 578 cu. in. and have been measured at about 90 brake h.p. Installed in 35-foot Elco yachts, the t-head engines would propel them at 22 mph, a fast clip for 1912.

My grandfather was keen on liberty aircraft engines running booze into sheepshead bay.  Twins and nothing could touch them.  He said it was lots of fun for a 17 year old. ! Growing up on the south shore of Long Island and around some of the old boat yards I heard stories from many the old baymen who did it.  

[W_Higgins]

23 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

No, the comments section where just anybody can pick a car to death. They rip a car apart and say things that scare buyers away, yet most know very little about what they're saying. If you don't have a Pagoda SL to sell or maybe a late-model BMW, you can expect guys who know nothing to chime in and tell you all the things wrong with a car, true or not. If you do a BaT auction and it doesn't sell, your car is flat-out doomed on the market.

 

That sounds exactly like what happens here on a daily basis.  There are even rules regarding that, yet they seem to go unenforced.  As much as the culture at the HAMB is not my cup of tea, I will say that the "no reply" policy is something I think they have right there and at their other related sites, like Ford Barn.

[mike6024]

 

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http://www.woodrowwilson.org/piercearrow

 

When Woodrow Wilson returned from France after negotiating the Treaty of Versailles in 1919, a new Pierce-Arrow limousine awaited him at the dock in New York to take him back to Washington.  The automobile had just been added to the White House fleet. Wilson favored this automobile so much that when he left office his friends purchased it for him to use.  The car had received its finishing touches at the plant of the manufacturer, the Pierce-Arrow Motor Car Company of Buffalo, New York, in June 1919.  It was the 120th of the "Series 51" model.

From July, 1919, until the inauguration of his successor in 1921, President Wilson rode frequently in the handsome limousine on official business.  The automobile was distinguished by two special emblems.  On each of its arched rear passenger doors, the Presidential Seal was displayed.  On the front of the radiator panel was the AAA symbol, for in 1917 he was the first President of the United States to join the association. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Grimy]

The Woodrow Wilson Pierce is a Series 51 ("48 hp") on the 142" wheelbase.  The BAT car is a Series 31 ("38 hp") on a 134" wheelbase.

 

The Wilson car is often displayed at Pierce-Arrow Society East Coast meets and is superb.  Kudos to the restorers and maintenance folks!

[Spinneyhill]

On 7/14/2019 at 3:23 AM, John_Mereness said:

brass/nickle era cars are "big bucks" as they can go 60-65 mph - those Victorians liked to go fast. 

Um, excuse me, Victoria died in 1901. Edwardian era next, until 1910, so I suppose that was the Brass era. Then it was George V. I don't think there is a similar name after Edward VII.

 

Everybody liked to go fast, if they could afford it and had the nerve initially.

[Brooklyn Beer]

The Belle Epoque era is when they liked to go fast too 

[Pete Phillips]

I took care of a 1919 Pierce model 48 touring car for several years after its owner died about 20 years ago. Can't remember if it had 34" or 36" tires, but you could push that monster around the garage with just one hand. That massive, dual-valve, dual ignition, six never worked hard; before he died, the owner took me for a ride in it. It kept right up with highway traffic and that engine never ran at anything more than a slightly fast idle speed. You cannot wear out those engines! He drove it 60 miles once to an antique car event and reported to me that the average speed was 60 mph (speedometer didn't work, so he kept track of it by miles and elapsed time).  America's Rolls-Royce indeed!!

Edited July 15, 2019 by Pete Phillips
Punctuation (see edit history)

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, Pete Phillips said:

I took care of a 1919 Pierce model 48 touring car for several years after its owner died about 20 years ago. Can't remember if it had 34" or 36" tires, but you could push that monster around the garage with just one hand. That massive, dual-valve, dual ignition, six never worked hard; before he died, the owner took me for a ride in it. It kept right up with highway traffic and that engine never ran at anything more than a slightly fast idle speed. You cannot wear out those engines! He drove it 60 miles once to an antique car event and reported to me that the average speed was 60 mph (speedometer didn't work, so he kept track of it by miles and elapsed time).  America's Rolls-Royce indeed!!

 

 

Pete, your quite correct, these particular Pierce cars are absolutely fantastic, and actually very few people understand that they are one of the best cars ever made regardless of year of manufacture. One of my early car mentors made this comment to me, sitting in his garage surrounded by Model J’s, pre war Alfa’s, Simplex, Pierce 66, and a bunch of other legendary motor cars. When I asked him what is the one car to buy if you can only own one car his comment was a Series 31 or 51 Pierce Arrow. He then went on to explain his reasoning. From a man who has owned more than 500 pre war cars, I think he was correct in his determination. PS- he was very clear that the smaller series car was just as good as the larger...........and to buy the best I could find, and not let anyone talk me out of the smaller car. He thought from a driving perspective they were equal........and years later having driven both extensively I agree.

Edited July 15, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)