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What are some of the great "missing" Classics, prewar American?

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That photo may get you in trouble! 😎

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:48 PM, RICHELIEUMOTORCAR said:

 Just had a few minutes this morning to look again. I found these 3 photos.  "Flea Market 1966". Does not say where. Check out the 06 Buick on the trailer. Looks like a Stoddard Dayton in the center of the third photo?

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The Stoddard appears to be the 1910 roadster that was owned by Dave Domidion back in the 1960's....it's still around and in a collection of brass cars outside of Cincinnati....

 

But even I digress.....back to the big Classics!  As has been mentioned, there are people religiously searching for "lost" cars......some that may be lost but now could be found....

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David, Thank you for IDing the Stoddard Dayton, here is a better photo I took at the Ridgefield meet in 1967. Just noticed the headlight and wheel of the 1912 T next to it. It has been in my garage since 1983. The year before Dave Domidion drove up in his 1931 Rolls Royce Ascot, he was really into the 1931 Rolls and finally had one of every body type Rolls offered that year. Dave and his wife were really great people, always had time to chat with everyone starting when you were an interested kid of a bit older working on the Atwell Windswept Rolls. I miss him and all the other hobby people from that era. Bob 

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1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

What are some of the lost historical race cars from that time period?

You better start a separate thread to deal with all the race cars that started out as one and are now three or more. Bob 

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This one is lost: a Model A Duesenberg made into a service vehicle for the Duesenberg California Co., but in my opinion it was tastefully done. There is a photo of it from 1924, in an article about lost classics in Hemmings Classic Car 2013, from A-C-D Museum.

 

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/497711-870-0.jpg?rev=2

 

 

 

 

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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I read that King Alphonso of Spain had a Duesenberg Hibbard & Darrin Town Car. Did it survive?

 

See the source image

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Ad from the Summer 1954 issue of Antique Automobile. Can anyone tell me where this one ended up?

Before anyone comments on the price being low, that was a heck of a LOT of money for a Classic car in 1954. Well more than many if not most Duesenbergs were fetching at the time.

1934 Packard.jpg

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On 12/13/2018 at 11:23 PM, alsancle said:

Speaking of Dupont.  This car did survive.

 

 

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Yes, this DuPont Waterhouse Convertible Victoria exists today, yet in some ways could cause confusion as often people do not think about restored cars being re-restored and having color changes done on them.   When this was first restored it was done in dark Brown with Red wheels (to match its factory build sheet - which interestingly build sheets exist for quite a few DuPonts) and now the car has has been re-restored in tu-tone colors. 

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Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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On 12/13/2018 at 10:05 PM, dep5 said:

1932 Chrysler Custom Imperial CL dual windshield phaeton by LeBaron. Lost car, last seen in rough neighborhood, NYC

zeraCL1047.jpg.a70d85797d36b0f3e11c4618dfaf2d7f.jpg

 

There was a Chrysler Imperial Touring (w/rollup dual secondary windshield) in the Karl Kleve estate here in Cincinnati - around  2005 or so (it sat outside for years and was quite rough with many missing parts, though in other ways while needing restoration was a PRIZE via not being too far gone) - not sure what happened to it.   I want to say it was black with cove red insert.   Additionally, there was a dissembled Minerva Convertible Sedan, Cord L-19 Phaeton, 31 Cadillac V-12 Opera Coupe - Dick Shappy restored this, 30 or 31 Cadillac V-16 Limousine (that is now in Dayton, OH being restored  https://books.google.com/books?id=ajrTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=karl+kleve+estate+cincinnati+auction&source=bl&ots=Da0ZGNRo3G&sig=cjWO0ZbAYWu7lK0q6aijKUILuV8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihkvTp_6LfAhVST98KHW8hBiw4ChDoATAKegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=karl kleve estate cincinnati auction&f=false ), 36 Cadillac V-16 Limousinge (Karl's mother bought that new), a super rare Daimler, Bentley, Bugatti parts, and..  Karl liked to take things apart and at times then mate them together with other projects, and .... This is one of the more famous stories/litigation:  https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wb6773m/      https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2016/04/19/after-protracted-legal-battle-first-built-ferrari-375-plus-going-to-new-owner/

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CCCA Restoration question: Well maybe two questions, are CCCA and Pebble Beach judging rules the same or is one considered to be more desirable? If the original color and upholstery along with top material are known and they are changed to meet the current owners taste are they cause for deductions? Bob 

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On 12/12/2018 at 8:56 PM, edinmass said:

 

Looks like the car I bought about eight years ago in Amherst Ohio. (Just outside of Cleveland.) Same year, series, and body style. Purchased it out of a barn from a working farm. Restoration was started. It was mostly apart. We cut it up, and sold off almost every piece. The entire body and all the tin went to replace the Coachwork on a very rusty car in Utica New York. My best guess it a ninty five  percent chance it’s the car I had.

Ed, maybe 20 years ago, a friend and a client of our law firm had what I thought was an 1934 836-A Club Sedan - his name was RC Fogle (they lived in Northern KY (Fort Mitchell) and had most of the cars stored in Cincinnati.  I had heard about the car PA sitting out under a tarp for eons, though when the time came for him to sell (pre-handling of estate) I never took a second to go look at the car.

 

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15 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

CCCA Restoration question: Well maybe two questions, are CCCA and Pebble Beach judging rules the same or is one considered to be more desirable? If the original color and upholstery along with top material are known and they are changed to meet the current owners taste are they cause for deductions? Bob 

CCCA - does not matter (nor AACA or ....).  

 

As to Pebble Beach - sort of sad when somethings that are so famous make it to the lawn and are not restored to match their original factory photos (someone else will have to speak how that is factored into or not into prizes)

 

When I was doing the 1939 LaSalle Bohman & Schwartz, we were having upholstery color matched, sending parts to the paint lab to have color matched, and... - lots of good old fashioned get a magnifying glass detective work.   I was sort of bummed to that for example its original brand tires were not reproduced and ...

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Well, as to judging, the three mentioned:

 

-AACA, cosmetic, mechanical condition not very important as long as all components are correct and shiny.  Must drive on to show field, no matter how poorly.

 

-CCCA, a more comprehensive judging that gives weight to car components (lights, instruments, engine performance) and thus (in my opinion) better judges true condition of car. You can buy a recent CCCA award winning car sight unseen and feel confident it's a great car.

 

-Pebble Beach and similar, cosmetic perfection but also must have a pedigree, or be a rare one-off, for top prizes.  Mechanically, some kudos for pre-show tour, and must drive to awards stand.  Money spent to detail ( particularly after tour/drive) probably more than annual income average for a family.

 

There's a huge amount of money spent on the big competitions.  Good for them, glad they can entertain the rest of us, and there are a few of the high rollers who actually like cars.

 

Thanks to all for contributions to this thread....

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John, thr 836A I bought was never left outside. It was always garaged from new. As far as restoring a car to its factory look, if it’s possible to do, the current thought and trend is put it back exactly as it was when new down to the last minute detail. To be honest, I think most cars were well done in the day, and collectors today over restore, over color,(I’m guilty), and many put too much junk on the car........mirrors, wheel covers, lights, trunks, and assorted do dads. Currently the plane Jane look is what is taking home trophies, if that is what your thing is.

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 To me Nicola Bulgari's restoration shop is the epitome of a shop that does the research and restores the cars the way they were when they sat on the dealer showroom floor, no better no worse.  NO BLING !!! 

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2 hours ago, Curti said:

 To me Nicola Bulgari's restoration shop is the epitome of a shop that does the research and restores the cars the way they were when they sat on the dealer showroom floor, no better no worse.  NO BLING !!! 

I agree, though I notice his cars simply look right, every time. 

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I think no on this one.   Some of you know what this two RR is all about.  Built in Yonkers NY in the late 20s by Gus Schumacher,   Prospect Garage/Schumacher Motor Services.

 

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Edited by alsancle (see edit history)

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13 hours ago, edinmass said:

John, the 836A I bought was never left outside. It was always garaged from new. As far as restoring a car to its factory look, if it’s possible to do, the current thought and trend is put it back exactly as it was when new down to the last minute detail. To be honest, I think most cars were well done in the day, and collectors today over restore, over color,(I’m guilty), and many put too much junk on the car........mirrors, wheel covers, lights, trunks, and assorted do dads. Currently the plane Jane look is what is taking home trophies, if that is what your thing is.

I was somewhat criticized for putting the LaSalle back to what it was new - apparently it does not "pop" on a the show field.   Interestingly, the cry to put whitewalls on it is overwhelming - and someone else can do that if they want down the road (it was delivered new with blackwalls though).  The dark Maroon undercarriage, Maroon wheels, large chrome hubcaps, and blackwalls basically "suck-up" the light and makes what is a very light colored car look very dark.  One thing I did do after Amelia Island Concours was change the inside of the fender skirt color from Maroon to Silver (the Maroon was reflecting in the hubcap and the rear wheels were just lost in darkness).  It could make a difference if the tires had something shiny on them - I basically wire toothbrushed them to get all the mold release and protective coating off (a super fun couple of days job).  When you look at the original Bohman & Schwartz photos, the car is in brilliant sunlight and strategically positioned accordingly. 

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