1948 Pontiac Streamliner 8

[r1lark]

cevensky, I'll admit that I've never liked fender skirts................but your car looks really really good with the skirts on! It accentuates the long low look of the car. 👍

[GARY F]

Yes, The skirts belong there.

[PhilAndrews]

On 3/9/2021 at 7:04 PM, cevensky said:

I put the trunk handle back on. The handle and shaft are supposed to be held together by a stay screw that allows them to rotate as a unit when the handle is unlocked. All that pot metal is broken so I attempted a jb weld fix, which nearly held but broke due to my manhandling trying to work the stubborn and dirty lock. But anyway. License plate on. Lights acting whacky (issue with the turn signal unit again, sliding contact plate, I think), front driver coil spring collapsed (again. Maybe not installed in the groove? It’ll have to come out and be reinstalled to verify, it expanded when I jacked the car up... Ugh). 
Three steps forward, five back.

 

 

Interesting, all the documentation and jobsworths at the DMV said that you cannot take a retired, age-related plate and re-use it on any vehicle.

[cevensky]

@PhilAndrews it took me literally months and I found this by accident, but it can be done. They sent me my updated registration with the new license plate number attached now to my vehicle after I sent in my paperwork. I was about to just get a custom plate when I found this hyperlinked to another form. If you have any questions, you of course know how to reach me. ‘51 LA plates are easier to find than ‘48!

[PhilAndrews]

1 hour ago, cevensky said:

@PhilAndrews it took me literally months and I found this by accident, but it can be done. They sent me my updated registration with the new license plate number attached now to my vehicle after I sent in my paperwork. I was about to just get a custom plate when I found this hyperlinked to another form. If you have any questions, you of course know how to reach me. ‘51 LA plates are easier to find than ‘48!

I'll pass, I'm quite happy with my modem Pelican on the back- it's properly reflective, more for people to see at night!

[pvfjr]

Cevensky, great job documenting this. I just read the whole thing, and I like what you've done keeping it usable the whole time.  On Sunday I'll be picking up a 1948 Streamliner Silver Streak for the wife, so this was a fun read.  We're going to try to make it a driver and keep the patina for a while.  I'll start my own thread so I don't clutter yours up. 

[cevensky]

@pvfjr have fun, it's a great car to drive around in. My inbox is alway open for questions.

 

I've resolved to get my radiator professionally cleaned, I've been reading around and the lower hose collapse may be a symptom of blocked radiator flow. Until I do that, I won't fool with the thermostat. If radiator clean out doesn't work, I'll pull the thermostat for a bellows type, then check on the condition of my water distribution tube.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

3 hours ago, cevensky said:

@pvfjr have fun, it's a great car to drive around in. My inbox is alway open for questions.

 

I've resolved to get my radiator professionally cleaned, I've been reading around and the lower hose collapse may be a symptom of blocked radiator flow. Until I do that, I won't fool with the thermostat. If radiator clean out doesn't work, I'll pull the thermostat for a bellows type, then check on the condition of my water distribution tube.

 

 When you say "professionally cleaned" I HOPE you mean rodded out. Any thing else is probably a band aid.

 

   Ben

[cevensky]

@Ben Bruce aka First BornI do mean rodded or sonic cleaning, if I have time tomorrow I’m taking it to a shop to see how much.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

53 minutes ago, cevensky said:

@Ben Bruce aka First BornI do mean rodded or sonic cleaning, if I have time tomorrow I’m taking it to a shop to see how much.

 

 No experience with sonic cleaning. 

 

  Ben

[Fr. Buick]

Put a Tefba filter on the upper hose. 

[cevensky]

Ok. I got the radiator put through an ultrasonic cleaner by a man in the industrial district by downtown... he looked at least as old as the car, coveralls, complete with a red embroidered name tag in that classic cursive: “Eugene.” 
He said, “That’s the best radiator I’ve seen in 40 years.” When asked did it have junk in it: “Ohhhhh gaw I don’t know how any water flowed through it. Cups of sludge came out.” 
Sure enough it was noticeably lighter on pickup. He soldered me a slightly shorter neck for my modern cap and re-affixed the overflow tube, which was wobbly. I have to paint the tanks again and reinstall, but I’m sure things will be cool now and will update after install.
 

Now, gentlemen, I’ve scoured the web. HOW does the Pontiac headliner for 48 install over the wind lace?? As far as I can tell, there is no tack strip, but there is the rubber the wind lace staples into... is there a fisher body manual for these cars? I’m perturbed. Ready to paint all the metal, put insulation on the roof, and slap a headliner in.

Edited May 19, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[AutoMechanic]

That for sure is a great project and cool car. 

[Bloo]

Is there a channel for a piece of wood to tack things to?

 

On quite a few prewar Pontiacs, the edge of the headliner and the windlace tack to wood, or possibly some sort of an impregnated cardboard substitute for wood. I am not sure if this applies to 48, but it might, as the early postwar models were real similar. A piece of wire-on tacks on covering both edges, Once the wire-on is folded and hammered down, the visual effect is like a double row of windlace.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[cevensky]

@Bloo, there is a rubber rack strip that is held into the body. I still have windlace nailed into it. My question is, after the windlace is stapled on, you can hang the headliner on the bows, even tuck it behind the windshield molding, but how does one tack the headliner edges along the windlace without the staples or tacks showing? Do you just get the staples in right behind so the round part of the windlace hides them?

[Bloo]

I wish I could show you. I took scads of pictures of that little detail one year at the ETC Flathead Reunion, but I can't find the hard drive they are on. Both things tack (or staple) down. Then a piece of wire-on is tacked over them. In original installations the wire on and the windlace match very closely. Once the wire-on is folded over, the tacks are hidden and the car appears to have 2 rows of windlace next to each other, but one of them is just the wire-on.

 

This thread sort of explains it, but the example shown winds up looking more like a triple bead. In a Pontiac, its all cloth and the part of the wire-on that folds over is a little bigger, leaving you with the 2 pieces of cloth windlace look. At the end of the day it is the same thing, it just looks a little different. The thread also shows hidem, which could work, but is not what Pontiac used.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/329603-wire-on-now-available-from-new-source/

 

If it still isn't making sense, post back and I'll grab a picture of my 36. Whoever trimmed it last used generic black cloth windlace and black vinyl wire-on with a light gray headliner, and it sort of destroys the effect. It isn't a great example.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[cevensky]

@Bloo, thank you! That’s the missing piece. I appreciate you so much, that gives me the confidence to go ahead and do my headliner. I’ve been scratching my head for months.

[cevensky]

Spent the day getting my cleaned out radiator and my new gas tank with sending unit in.

I cut out must of the rusted vestiges of the trunk floor... they really don’t make a pan close to this so I guess I’ll have to. 
The radiator does a good job, but I’m still creeping up toward 200° per the gauge when I’m sitting at the driveway and backing in after a drive. I’ll give it a good test tomorrow, put some antifreeze in there. Gas tank is great, sender is accurate on the gauge, couldn’t be happier to not have to open the trunk to put gas in! Going to order tack strip and windlace soon.

Edited June 1, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Well, crap.  Should idle all day at thermostat temp. What was actually done to the radiator?

 

  Try wetting the radiator when hot, perhaps using a garden hose, and see if it dries evenly.

 

  Ben

[cevensky]

@Ben Bruce aka First Bornthe radiator was put through an ultrasonic cleaner made for radiators. I would have to imagine this is the most effective way to clean a radiator. Water runs through it so quickly I doubt there are any blockages now. One thing you said and one thing I forgot to mention but am aware... I still don’t have a thermostat since taking out my faulty one. I’m thinking now that the water is running quickly through, it really may need to be slowed in the radiator by a thermostat. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

That last sentence is an old wife's tail. 

 

Only one way to know for sure,  remove the tanks and rod the sucker.  Oh well.

 

  Ben

[cevensky]

The man who did this clean out said he’s been radiator cleaning, building, repairing for over 50 years. He says that he has no reason to rod any kind of heat exchange core due to his having an ultrasonic cleaner. Scientifically, this makes since. Rodding removes large debris but doesn’t remove mineral deposits. It also creates risk of rupturing a tube. Less invasive is always the way to go- water literally falls through this radiator now. If you pour a cup in, it will start pouring out of the bottom tank as fast as you can pour it in. 
Like I said, I haven’t trialed the radiator much, but my suspicion is that it is not an issue anymore. 

[95Cardinal]

@cevensky What is the temperature rating of the thermostat are you using?

Are you seeing the 210F temperature on the gauge or with a thermometer?

 

I'm not familiar with these cars; does it have a fan shroud?

What is the distance between the radiator core and the fan blades?

Joe

[Bloo]

I don't want to discourage you but my 36 Six gets hot if it is going too slow for long periods (parades, stuck in traffic, etc.), and old articles that were once posted on the Early Times Chapter website suggest that is normal. You could try @edinmass 's evaporust-as-coolant method along with @Grimy 's stocking trick to catch the crud before it gets into your radiator.

 

Pontiac flatheads as built have a water distribution tube inside the block that can rust out, and that causes overheating. Supposedly there will be hot spots particularly at the back of the engine. @Rusty_OToole suggested in some other thread that you can find those hot spots with an infrared thermometer gun. Mine passes that test with flying colors. I am not running a thermostat either. That wasn't intentional and I did not realize it was missing until I opened the housing, and as you probably know these cars do not take a standard thermostat, so that had to wait. I have one now but I don't really expect it to help.

 

I wish you success, and will keep watching this thread for ideas. I have not heard of using an ultrasonic bath for radiators until today. On one hand, maybe it would work harden the brass, but on the other hand if you can get the crud out without taking it apart, that would be amazing. What state is this radiator guy located in?

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Since @Bloomentioned it, I'll repeat my stocking technique, which is the cheapest and best filter system I've used.  Get some cheap ladies' nylon stockings (the individual calf-height ones worn with slacks, since they are more robust--a box of 20 at the drugstore is about $7).  Drain off and save for reinstallation enough coolant that you can remove the top radiator hose.  Using a blunt tool (screwdriver handle or ratchet handle, for example), stuff the closed toe of a stocking into the top tank of the radiator through the radiator's upper neck so that at least 2-3 inches of the closed end is actually in the top tank.  Wrap the open end of the stocking over the outside of the upper neck to anchor the stocking, then reinstall the upper radiator hose.  Then use a razor blade to cut off the excess stocking material.  The idea is that all coolant entering the radiator goes through the stocking filter, and catches all the crud that would otherwise be clogging your newly cleaned radiator.  Run the car 100 or 200 miles or so, again drain enough coolant to remove at least the radiator hose from the upper neck, remove the stocking to determine what, and how much, crud has been caught in this field expedient filter.  Wash the stocking out under a faucet and reinstall as before.  Run the car double the first mileage interval and do it again.  The results of the second removal and inspection will help you gauge the next service interval.  Once the accumulated debris is minimal, change the stocking every 3 years but ALSO whenever you have used any kind of chemical cleaner/flush which might cause deterioration of the stocking.  Run the heater full on at least part of the time to catch debris from the heater core and hoses.

 

I have a 1920s car that spent much of its life in Iowa in an area whose water has high mineral content, and the immediate prior owner was a great fan of soluble oil in the radiator (I'm not--I hate the stuff).  The stocking filter caught a great deal of what I call SLUDGE as well as rust particles from the block.  The stocking filter caught so much in the first 100 miles that it took me 10 minutes to massage, with two slender dowels, the ball of goo so that the stocking could be withdrawn through the upper neck.

 

I believe it is essential to use the stocking filter..

* whenever you've had a radiator cleaned, on or off the car, to prevent crud from elsewhere in the system being deposited into your sparkly clean radiator

* whenever your block has been tanked as part of a rebuild.  That gray coating that you can't chip or wire brush off WILL come loose in pieces after being subjected to multiple heating/cooling cycles.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Grimy
fix typo (see edit history)

[cevensky]

@95Cardinalno thermostat right now, no shroud originally. The space between the blades and the rad is not very much at all. A half inch? Haven’t measured. Don’t have a thermometer but will borrow one when I have time and also probably hook up a capillary thermogauge to check the electrical unit. 

@Bloo, I appreciate all of your suggestions a lot. I’ll go with @Grimy’s filter idea, even if I don’t use a stocking I like the principle of not fouling my radiator.

As far as thermostats, I did find one that fit snugly, but upon taking it out it did not fit. As for the water distribution tube, I’m almost certain I have a brass one in. 
The ultrasonic cleaning is really interesting conceptually, and it’s not uncommon. This guy is here in northwest Louisiana so I can assure you if we have it, lots of cities do.

Something I noticed yesterday while driving: misfiring on deceleration from speeds of 35+. 
This drive saw the temp hold steady at gauge 180, a stop at a long light got me nearly to gauge 200, but that decreased a bit after driving and stayed gauge 195-200 till parking at home.

[Seedee]

On 1/13/2021 at 7:33 PM, cevensky said:

I forgot that I also replaced the collapsed driver side coil spring over break with a stock size spring

 I'm really curious, how did you go about changing it? The procedure that my Oldsmobile shop manual says kind of freaks me out to be honest! 

[cevensky]

@SeedeeI first clean as much grease off as possible. Then change and have a drink, maybe some food. I used a heavy floor jack to jack the A-arm up, take off tire if it isn’t already, place a jack stand or two under the front of the car, unbolt the bolts holding the arm and jack up/down to where they can slide out. Slowly let down the jack, the spring has a lot of energy behind it. Eventually it will be decompressed and out. I kept the jack where it was and put  the new spring in its groove (on one side, oops) and then start jacking. It may take several tries to keep the spring in its groove on the lower arm and in its retainers in the upper arm. It is possible, and not that hard. But be careful that you aren’t jacking a surface that will slip.

Edited May 25, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[cevensky]

Today I went through my ignition and played with timing. I had some grease build up on my points and scraping that off seemed to help. Put a new cap on the carb choke control too.. I tried adjusting idle air screws and they didn’t do anything. Sure enough, took it for a drive and it was backfiring on deceleration and dying at lights. So, it is time for me to take my manifolds off and have them surfaced by a shop I trust more than the last one, who clearly did not do the job despite me paying for it. I’ll get new gaskets on the way too, third time’s the charm.

[cevensky]

Of note, on my drive today (which was after a long idle up to about 160°), I did not get above 180 after I cleaned up my points and retarded timing a small bit. Just went back out to test my wiper motor; there is absolutely no vacuum in the line so the leak must be huge. Sadly. Did get an IR thermometer. Here’s the readings, in pictures.

the gauge read 150°ish and the top tank read 150°. I’m really surprised at the accuracy of the original gauge and sender. Is this temp drop of about 20° pretty good between top and bottom of the radiator? 
Passenger front door panel finished and on today- only one more door to go. Rubber for tack strips, more vinyl for seats (just hog nails, no sewing for now), new manifold gaskets are on the way. Hopefully I can get acme on the phone and get windlace and headliner in the mail too.

Edited June 1, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[cevensky]

Alright gentlemen. Manifolds surfaced, new gaskets placed. New plugs.

Outside temperature: 91°F, feels like 103°F

Humidity: 65%

I idle about 3-4 minutes, up to 110. I drive around about 5 minutes, up to 180. Down the road for a few minutes at speed, 190. A couple more, 200. Coming down from speed after the engine heats up, it still is backfiring even though I’m pretty confident there’s no vacuum leak. 
Idle for 5 minutes in the driveway, nearly 220.

Never lost any water, but I am running a 10 or 15 psi cap? I knocked it off from a distance and of course lost a good bit. I was running straight water for the time being.
This engine is fully rebuilt, bored 30 over. The radiator is clean as a whistle. Water pump is rebuilt. No thermostat right now. The timing is set. Points are new and set. Condenser is not new, exhaust system is not new. 
As has been shown, a Pontiac L8 can handle Louisiana heat. What am I missing here? I’m pretty frustrated by the fact that I can’t drive this thing down the road when it gets hot outside.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Radiator is clean as a whistle!   How do we know this?     Classic  plugged radiator problem.

 

  Ben

[cevensky]

23 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Radiator is clean as a whistle!   How do we know this?     Classic  plugged radiator problem.

 

  Ben

@Ben Bruce aka First Bornsee discussion several posts prior. Radiator, which was badly plugged, put through ultrasonic cleaner by a professional. Water runs through like it’s falling through air, no hot spots by IR thermometer.

[Bloo]

Backfiring? What backfiring?

 

[cevensky]

@Bloo, backfiring isn't the best term (one who is working the night shift shouldn't attempt daytime conversation). There is a misfire (loud popping) on deceleration from higher speeds. I'm trying to figure out of it's a timing, mixture, or transmission issue.

[SeventhSon]

Maybe you should try this stuff to help dissolve anything the ultrasonic missed: https://products.liqui-moly.com/radiator-cleaner-7.html  (Use at your own discretion).

 

Or maybe you should run some anti-freeze in it instead of straight water. My Avanti ran hot like that when I first awakened it from its 25 year slumber, and after running anti-freeze mixture in it for some time it has gone down from the temp gauge being pegged (first drive) to hovering around 180. I believe the anti-freeze helped dissolve old deposits in the radiator.

 

Not sure about the backfiring - is it still running rich?

[cevensky]

@SeventhSon, considering I’m consistently getting over 30° higher than I want to be, I’m thinking deposits aren’t the problem. Also, reading on ultrasonic cleaning, it is much better on deposits than rodding and probably equal or better than chemical flushing. Just scientifically speaking, not opinion.

Straight water is the best coolant for heat transfer, coolant just keeps it from easily boiling or freezing. I am going to add antifreeze for the anti corrosion benefit but I can’t justify spending on coolant while I’m still trouble shooting and draining and filling back up. 
If anything, I feel like it’s running a little lean. The choke had to be adjusted toward the richer side to get the idle to smooth out. Choke opens up appropriately as engine heats up, so definitely not rich at operating temp.
Today I’ll take off the water pump and radiator to see what is going on with the main part of the water jacket and check the condition of the water distribution tube. The pump got moved water strong enough to collapse the lower hose when the radiator was blocked but that doesn’t mean the water distribution tube isn’t bent up and impeding flow through the block. I’m leaning toward a mechanical obstruction in the block… I don’t think the timing could possibly be that far off. But will use a timing light later to check.

Edited June 10, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[r1lark]

On the subject of radiators - my '64 Studebaker Hawk ran hot from the time I got it. Had the radiator cleaned, no change. Finally took it to the oldest radiator shop in the area and talked to the guy that had been there 50 (!) years. He put it in the tank and flowed water thru it, said it definitely was not clogged up. But he showed me where the copper fins (corrugations) between the tubes were all loose, and said that was the problem with the radiator, no fix except a recore. Put a radiator in from another Studebaker that I had (that had tight fins/corrugations), and presto the cooling problem went away. 

 

Anyway, something to look at on your radiator. Probably not the issue, but you have hit the most common potential problems, so time to think somewhat out of the box. 

[cevensky]

@r1lark, that was my first question when I dropped it off to the radiator man (do I need a recore) because I’ve dealt with that problem on a couple of much older cars. It’s funny because he had also been doing rads over 50 years and the very first thing he did was stick a hose in and turn it on, we waited 10 seconds before water came out of the lower tube.

When I picked it up, he said it was the best rad he’d seen in about 40 years now that it was clean and it would cool anything. He may be my next call.

I appreciate the dialogue and I agree about outside of the box. That’s why checking up in the block is next up!

Edited June 10, 2021 by cevensky (see edit history)

[cevensky]

Getting somewhere. One pop on the ground you did a nice little pile of rust on the water distribution tube. I’m also wondering if it wasn’t put in upside down? It seems like the bigger holes should go to the cylinders to allow more water flow around them from the pump. The picture of it sitting on the bike is the way that it came out