pool of trans fluid on the floor.

[39mm]

1963 Riviera w/dynaflow . I searched for this but couldn't find it. Would someone remind me of why a pool of trans fluid will get burped out onto the floor from a car that hasn't been run in a while?

 

Thanks, Tim

[Riviera63]

15 minutes ago, 39mm said:

1963 Riviera w/dynaflow . I searched for this but couldn't find it. Would someone remind me of why a pool of trans fluid will get burped out onto the floor from a car that hasn't been run in a while?

 

Thanks, Tim

 

Tim,

 

From what I understand the fluid drains from the converter and fills/overfills the pan and it will leak out. Below is what I sent to another forum member about this.

 

The drip pan is a good thing to have and they are very inexpensive. You should be able to pick one up at your local parts store. I picked mine up at O'Reilly's. Even if you get all of your leaks taken care of it would be a good idea to get one to put under the car when you store it for the winter or any length of time. The Dynaflow when not used for an extended period can burp out up to a quart of transmission fluid. The drip pan will save you a lot of clean up. I did not know about this phenomenon when I stored my car for its first winter. I was more than a little panicked when I went out in the spring to start it up for the first time and saw this huge puddle of transmission fluid on the floor. I was very relieved to find out this was normal and all you need to do is top of the fluid and drive.

 

Bill

[retiredmechanic74]

It sounds like the check ball or valve that holds the fluid in the converter is stuck open and allowing the converter to drain back. When you start the car and put it in gear does the trans take a minute or two to start moving? If so that is what is causing the problem, the converter should not drain back. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by retiredmechanic74 (see edit history)

[39mm]

4 hours ago, retiredmechanic74 said:

It sounds like the check ball or valve that holds the fluid in the converter is stuck open and allowing the converter to drain back. When you start the car and put it in gear does the trans take a minute or two to start moving? If so that is what is causing the problem, the converter should not drain back. 

Don't know whether or not it takes a minute or two to start moving after shifting as I'm getting it road worthy after years of being parked and the brakes aren't done yet. I assume the transmission has to be dropped and opened up to get at the check ball/valve. Is that right?

 

Thanks.

[Jim Cannon]

Yes, the converter is draining back and overfilling the pan, so some of it leaks out.  When you start the engine, the pump pulls the excess fluid (what did not leak out on the floor) up and quickly refills the converter.  Don't worry about it, don't try to fix it.  The best fix is to drive the car more often. 8-)  Check the fluid level in the transmission.  Only top up when HOT, and don't overfill.

 

 

[39mm]

25 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

Yes, the converter is draining back and overfilling the pan, so some of it leaks out.  When you start the engine, the pump pulls the excess fluid (what did not leak out on the floor) up and quickly refills the converter.  Don't worry about it, don't try to fix it.  The best fix is to drive the car more often. 8-)  Check the fluid level in the transmission.  Only top up when HOT, and don't overfill.

 

 

Thanks.

[39mm]

6 hours ago, Riviera63 said:

 

Tim,

 

From what I understand the fluid drains from the converter and fills/overfills the pan and it will leak out. Below is what I sent to another forum member about this.

 

The drip pan is a good thing to have and they are very inexpensive. You should be able to pick one up at your local parts store. I picked mine up at O'Reilly's. Even if you get all of your leaks taken care of it would be a good idea to get one to put under the car when you store it for the winter or any length of time. The Dynaflow when not used for an extended period can burp out up to a quart of transmission fluid. The drip pan will save you a lot of clean up. I did not know about this phenomenon when I stored my car for its first winter. I was more than a little panicked when I went out in the spring to start it up for the first time and saw this huge puddle of transmission fluid on the floor. I was very relieved to find out this was normal and all you need to do is top of the fluid and drive.

 

Bill

Thanks.

[39mm]

26 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

Yes, the converter is draining back and overfilling the pan, so some of it leaks out.  When you start the engine, the pump pulls the excess fluid (what did not leak out on the floor) up and quickly refills the converter.  Don't worry about it, don't try to fix it.  The best fix is to drive the car more often. 8-)  Check the fluid level in the transmission.  Only top up when HOT, and don't overfill.

 

 

Jim, do you think it is a stuck check ball/valve (iow, something is malfunctioning) as retired mechanic74 thinks or is this normal for this car?

[RivNut]

Jim says "drive it more often."  "Don't worry about it, dont try to fix it." 

 

Jim is THE 63 tech advisor for the Riviera Owners Assn.  His reputation is very highly regarded,  believe him. 

 

If you can't drive the car, see if you can figure out a way to get the rear wheels off the ground and simulate driving it.  When you first start it and put it in gear, you won't be transferring any power to the rear wheels until the converter fills up again.  You may have to add some trans fluid to it to get the converter filled and get things moving again.  This will be a lot easier and cheaper than pulling it and tearing it open to see if there really is a problem.  Your biggest problem will, in all probability, be finding someone who can work on a transmission that's now 55 years old and was last produced 55 years ago.  If that doesnt work, then its time to pull it.

[39mm]

8 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Jim says "drive it more often."  "Don't worry about it, dont try to fix it." 

 

Jim is THE 63 tech advisor for the Riviera Owners Assn.  His reputation is very highly regarded,  believe him. 

 

If you can't drive the car, see if you can figure out a way to get the rear wheels off the ground and simulate driving it.  When you first start it and put it in gear, you won't be transferring any power to the rear wheels until the converter fills up again.  You may have to add some trans fluid to it to get the converter filled and get things moving again.  This will be a lot easier and cheaper than pulling it and tearing it open to see if there really is a problem.  Your biggest problem will, in all probability, be finding someone who can work on a transmission that's now 55 years old and was last produced 55 years ago.  If that doesnt work, then its time to pull it.

Of course, I wouldn't pull the trans since driving it prevents this from happening. I'm just curious about what causes this to happen. "converter is draining back and overfilling the pan" Was the car designed to do this, i.e pour out all over the floor, (doesn't seem likely) and if not what exactly is it that causes it other than not driving it for an extended period.

 

Thanks.

[retiredmechanic74]

1 hour ago, 39mm said:

Don't know whether or not it takes a minute or two to start moving after shifting as I'm getting it road worthy after years of being parked and the brakes aren't done yet. I assume the transmission has to be dropped and opened up to get at the check ball/valve. Is that right?

 

Thanks.

If my memory serves me right I think all you need to do is drop the pan and remove the valve body and clean it up. If this is the case and you plan on doing the job yourself be careful when taking it apart. I don't remember if there are steel balls in there or not, It might be better to take the valve body to someone to have it done.

[jimtash]

Mine does the same thing. It's normal after sitting.

[retiredmechanic74]

Well Guys....All I can say is ...After re-building transmissions for over 30 years the drain back of the converter is not normal but if you think it is I'm fine with that. There is a product called Purple Power that is suppose to be good for cleaning garage floors. 

[Zimm63]

MIne does the same thing.  Jim's cure is what I use.  Run it.  

[39BuickEight]

Powerglides will do the same thing when not used.  Drive it!

[retiredmechanic74]

2 hours ago, 39BuickEight said:

Powerglides will do the same thing when not used.  Drive it!

None of the cast-iron Powergulides I re-built leaked back. The last production of the cast-iron Gm transmission for the Buick, Pontiac and Olds ended with the model year of 1965 when they were replaced by the Turbo 400 (that was a great day for me and my fellow trans builders) The cast-iron 4 speed hydromatic and the powergulide had break down converters in other words they just didn't slide out from the front pump you had to take them out in pieces. Which meant  seals and gaskets were used. I remember a time I was hired in to replace a transmission guy that quit. I got one of his comebacks (cast-iron Powerguide) and when I removed it from the engine at least 2 gal. of trans fluid spilled out on the floor because the converter leaked and filled up the bellhousing.

Edited February 8, 2018 by retiredmechanic74
spelling (see edit history)

[dr914]

I had always wondered why my near perfect car did that after sitting!!!  Thanks for the tech tip

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, retiredmechanic74 said:

None of the cast-iron Powergulides I re-built leaked back. The last production of the cast-iron Gm transmission for the Buick, Pontiac and Olds ended with the model year of 1965 when they were replaced by the Turbo 400 (that was a great day for me and my fellow trans builders) The cast-iron 4 speed hydromatic and the powergulide had break down converters in other words they just didn't slide out from the front pump you had to take them out in pieces. Which meant  seals and gaskets were used. I remember a time I was hired in to replace a transmission guy that quit. I got one of his comebacks (cast-iron Powerguide) and when I removed it from the engine at least 2 gal. of trans fluid spilled out on the floor because the converter leaked and filled up the bellhousing.

None of yours leaked, but how many of them were being driven and were never subjected to sitting for long periods at a time?

[retiredmechanic74]

1 minute ago, RivNut said:

None of yours leaked, but how many of them were being driven and were never subjected to sitting for long periods at a time?

In those days they were daily drivers. But if left sitting long enough the harsh elements could cause them to leak. But if they leak.......something has gone wrong. The transmissions were not built to leak. Even todays transmissions leak while still under warranty and the dealer does all they can do to stop it from leaking. 

[RivNut]

That's why you worry about a leak in a daily driver but don't worry about a leak in one that sits for a long time.  Chances are gaskets and seals in a 55 year old car are going to leak if they're allowed to sit and dry out.  

 

39MM just needs to drive his car more. ?

[retiredmechanic74]

OK guys I was just giving you a mechanics point of view. If you never have any problems and you don't care about having oil spots in your garage and driveway then great I'm with you 100%.

[Jim Cannon]

On 2/7/2018 at 7:40 PM, 39mm said:

Jim, do you think it is a stuck check ball/valve (iow, something is malfunctioning) as retired mechanic74 thinks or is this normal for this car?

 

Not really stuck.  There is probably a bit of varnish built up on the check valve so it's not seating as well as it could.  Yes, if you took it all apart to rebuild it, this would get cleaned up.  It would not hurt to change the transmission fluid next summer when you are able to drive the car.  Fresh fluid is really good at cleaning up the internals on an old automatic transmission.  And you never get it all out, so it does not hurt to change it more often than on just miles.

 

You don't actually have to drive the car to run the pump and refill the converter; just start it and run it about a minute or two once a month.  That's actually kind of tough on the engine, though, because all it does is fill the crankcase with unburned fuel and water vapor, then it sits.  Better to just leave it until next spring when you can drive it.

 

I'm not going to say that this leak back is "normal" really; it did not happen when the cars were new.  But it happens a bit now on the old cars.  I talk to enough 1st Gen. Riv owners to know that it happens fairly often.  This falls into the annoyance category of owning and driving an old car.

 

 

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

This falls into the annoyance category of owning and driving an old car.

 

I like to think of it as 'personality'. 

[RivNut]

"Annoyance factor."  Great term for the hobby.?

[39mm]

15 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

Not really stuck.  There is probably a bit of varnish built up on the check valve so it's not seating as well as it could.  Yes, if you took it all apart to rebuild it, this would get cleaned up.  It would not hurt to change the transmission fluid next summer when you are able to drive the car.  Fresh fluid is really good at cleaning up the internals on an old automatic transmission.  And you never get it all out, so it does not hurt to change it more often than on just miles.

 

You don't actually have to drive the car to run the pump and refill the converter; just start it and run it about a minute or two once a month.  That's actually kind of tough on the engine, though, because all it does is fill the crankcase with unburned fuel and water vapor, then it sits.  Better to just leave it until next spring when you can drive it.

 

I'm not going to say that this leak back is "normal" really; it did not happen when the cars were new.  But it happens a bit now on the old cars.  I talk to enough 1st Gen. Riv owners to know that it happens fairly often.  This falls into the annoyance category of owning and driving an old car.

 

 

Thanks.

[OldGerman]

Big drip pan saves your Garage Floor.

Edited February 11, 2018 by OldGerman (see edit history)

[Riviera63]

Got the Riviera out of winter hibernation yesterday. Attached is a picture of the fluid that burped out of my transmission. Of the 4 winters I have had my car stored for an extended period without starting This has happened twice. The 2 winters previous to this it did not burp out any fluid. As several people have stated a drip pan makes this a quick clean up and a very minor annoyance. After a drive to get everything good and hot it took only 10-11 ounces to top it off and we were good to go.

 

Bill

[TexRiv_63]

I agree with all on here about the "drainback" issue, driving should keep it in check. Where you have to worry is if it keeps leaking when you are able to drive it regularly. When I had my 63 I drove it every week and only had a few drips of fluid but all of a sudden it started leaking heavily and leaving a trail - that's when I had to have it rebuilt.

[65nailhead]

I realize that this is an old topic but I cannot thank everybody enough for this thread! I found a 65 Riviera in a barn. It had been sitting for 19 years. The tires still held air! I put it in neutral pulled it on the trailer, took it home, unloaded it and placed it in park. The next day there was a pool of transmission fluid under the car. My heart sank. I thought I had a bad seal or maybe something more sinister. Varnish on the check ball makes sense. Might I ask where the oil leaks from when the converter drains? I imagine from the filler tube seal. I just want to climb under there and make sure the leak location matches this situation. By the way, I am also the proud owner of a drip pan dedicated to the Buick. Thanks again from a new owner and enthusiast!

[Seafoam65]

You are correct....the pan overflows and the fluid leaks  past the seal on the dipstick tube. I

had a 77 Firebird Trans Am in the shop last year with a fresh rebuild and the fluid kept leaking

out at the base of the dipstick tube after changing the seal three times by various shops. They brought

the car in for me to look at it and I found that the dipstick tube had a hairline crack in it. I welded it up and ground

down the weld and no more leak. 

[telriv]

Another area to look at for a leak when the trans. converter drains back is the shift seal on the side of the trans. Easily replaced externally.

As far as the DynaFlows are concerned put in a pint of type 111 brake fluid. This will help to swell the seals & stop leaks.

Try it you'll like it.

 

Tom T.

[65nailhead]

I appreciate your responses. I will check the shift seal and use the fluid trick. Thanks a lot!

[Jim Cannon]

Transmission fluid that is 19 years old should just be changed before going any further.

 

If you do not feel like draining the Torque Converter, then change the transmission fluid in the pan, drive it for a few days, and then change it again.

 

The fresh fluid will clean up a lot of varnish and other internal "dirt" from sitting.  You may notice seals leaking a bit at first with the fresh fluid, but it will clear up as they soften.

 

Tom's comment about adding the brake fluid said Dynaflow.  Your '65 does not have a Dynaflow. Just put fresh fluid in it.

 

Look at the transmission cooler lines, where they attach to the side of the transmission.  For some reason, these like to loosen themselves up.  Easy to stop any leak there by just snugging things up.