322 engine tear down

[Beemon]

I'm not religious, but I think someone was watching over me. Ken made a comment to me about how he searched for 56 parts for a long time and I found three engines in 2 weeks, and one was running. I keep smelling something like burning oil when I turn the car off, I think it's maybe just cooking out the sludge? The stuff I cleaned out of the rocker galley wasn't too bad, but just makes me wonder. Or maybe it's the actual crankcase vapors doing their thing? I'm fascinated because I thought I had it down, but my other engine was just so bad that I thought everything bad was right. I'll keep on it. The vacuum gauge under the dash is reading about 14.5"Hg, which is realistically 15-15.5"Hg considering the leakage past the vacuum wipers, switch and pump jar, so that's good. I still need to tune the carb, because they were originally tuned on another motor that was not right. I'm dialing her in, though. Tomorrow we go back to the Friday night cruise in. I was thinking about stopping by the fabric shop and draping red velvet across the top of the air cleaner housing to display my piston with the wrist pin sticking out, with a little sticky that says "Trust but Verify". I thought the origin story behind my car was a story, but I guess the story keeps on writing itself?

[EmTee]

The story continues -- new chapter! 

[NC-car-guy]

Awesome! Way to see it through!

[NTX5467]

The story never ends, just a new chapter.

 

Congrats on how things have worked out!

 

NTX5467

[JohnD1956]

9 hours ago, Beemon said:

I don't know what the original caretakers of this engine did for maintenance, but it'll be babied from here on out.

 

9 hours ago, Beemon said:

Quiet otherwise putting around. Put a Honda to shame today in Low.

 

Looks incompatible to me. LOL

[KAD36]

Thanks for posting the video.  It sounds great, no smoke out the back when you blip the throttle, imperceptible vapors coming out of the breather - better than mine did when it was in regular service. 

 

Regarding the odor -

 

1) buy 2 clothespins,

2) place one on your nose,

3) place second in glove box for spare

4) drive the car.

 

Remember - believe you will prevail in the end.  Great job!!!

[Aaron65]

Old cars wear the light perfumes of gasoline vapors, antifreeze, and oil.  If it's not overpowering, it's just part of the romance.  Drive and enjoy...put the wrenches down until something breaks.

[Kosage Chavis]

Man...that engine sounds so nice.  Thank you for sharing.  You did well.  And just to think, you were almost "all to pieces" over this issue.  Every problem in life has a number.  Just try not to focus so much on the problem, but envision yourself reaching the end of it.  Turns out your number was 2 months.  Now it seems you are in a better place with the engine.  Who would have thought ?.  Proud of you bruh!

[dei]

2 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

 

Old cars wear the light perfumes of gasoline vapors, antifreeze, and oil.  If it's not overpowering, it's just part of the romance.

 

 

So true, so true. 

[MrEarl]

22 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

Old cars wear the light perfumes of gasoline vapors, antifreeze, and oil.

 

and if a real man owns it, PBBlaster 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

8 hours ago, MrEarl said:

 

and if a real man owns it, PBBlaster 

 

 Nah. WD 40

 

  Ben

 

[Beemon]

The WD-40 white lithium spray works really nice, too, for lubricating stuff like generators and distributors.

[60FlatTop]

I blew up a muffler on a '56 Olds once and caught a corner of the rear carpet on fire. The car always smelled like hot dogs after that.

 

No know, some people never experience anything like that in their whole lifetime.

 

Just makes you shake your head in wonder.

Bernie

[Beemon]

So I got some numbers for you guys. Today I took my parts engine piston and rod down to the local machine shop and had them press out the wrist pin and mic it to my rebuilt engine rod and piston. Wrist pins are the same, about .947" (I measured by myself .938" but that's with a Harbor Freight caliper). When they centered the press fit machine on the wrist pin, the parts engine rod had a press fit of 1.8 thousandths press fit. Here's the interesting part, my rebuilt engine rod had -.2 thousandths, or .2 thousandths clearance. So the rod in my rebuilt engine was clearanced for the wrist pin and had no press fit. Truly free floating. So I thanked that shop for the measurements and went up to the college. The Engineering department is closed for the summer, so I have to call back tomorrow and get personal contact info from the STEM secretary, but the machine shop at school was open and they collaborate with the metallurgist engineer at the college. When questioning, and being already knowledgeable about specific heat capacities of steel, aluminum and cast iron, I asked him: How could a rod loose it's press fit? When comparing the rebuilt with the original, the original rod still had machine knurling on the wrist pin bore, whereas my rebuilt one was smooth and looked honed out. He said a machine fit is a machine fit and it would never loose it's fit unless it was A. heated past it's expansion point, or B. machined to fit. Since an engine rarely ever sees past 212*F at the most, and this is way below cast iron's annealing point, heat cycling of the rotation assembly can be ruled out. Therefor, he concluded it was either heated for too long before assembly, or it was machined and assembled that way, both of which are the machinist's fault. He told me to get in contact with the engineering instructor at my earliest convenience to move forward. This comes after Friday, where I had the displeasure of running into the defendant at the local cruise in. While being very polite, and saying "I see.", he explained that the rods lost their press fit due to heat cycling in the engine and wasn't his fault. He must think I don't know better, or don't have proper connections. I mean even if that were true, I would think that' John's 56 Buick would have lost the press fit in his engine by now, too.

 

None of the machinists in my area will stand behind me, except the college instructor. With him and the engineering teacher, I think I'll have a bulletproof case.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[dei]

Sounds promising for you Ben to me.

 

With my son who is soon finishing his Masters in Mechanical Engineering at the U of W who has done some interesting work with engines and fuel design plus cooperated with other Masters students these last four years or so, amazes me the knowledge and equipment available to students once they network themselves. His Adviser (Prof) and the U have always been able to let him access whatever he needed when presenting it. 

 

Like some advise that was given, just ensure the facts you present are understandable to the presiding Judge.

He might know the Law but technical stuff.... ever see a judge with grease under his fingernails?

I've done some work for them and Lawyers and if it don't run when you turn the key? Not very nice people.

 

Hoping nothing but the best outcome for you.   

[Beemon]

30 minutes ago, dei said:

the U have always been able to let him access whatever he needed when presenting it.

 

Doug, funny you should mention, but one of the piece of my evidence will be putting the parts engine rod and my rebuilt engine rod under a Rockwell hardness tester to see if the metal has been changed or not due to some heat treatment process. I can't wait to get to the 4 year because I feel like at the community college, it's just baby toys we get to tinker and experiment with.

 

Also on the plus side, since we get to work with the machine shop on campus occasionally, I teased the idea of having custom rods made and it is completely do-able for $16/hr. Even though everything is manufactured by the students, all measurements are checked by the instructor before getting the final completion slip. You just have to submit a drawing, and with my prior knowledge of CAD software, I could have one digitally drawn up in a couple of hours. I have teased this thought, but will be no where ready to use them any time soon. On the downside, I won't be a student there technically after the summer, as I will be at the university. I am not sure what their facilities look like, but I know they have an engineering club for making high performance race cars with custom designed parts to go into a bare block motor. You better believe I'll be in that club.

[dei]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

You better believe I'll be in that club.

 

Go for it for sure!

 

So, you are in College right? and going to a University in September.

 

That is what my (then) young son did as he was well.... smart but "young".

He loved the College and here they have The Ford Centre For Excellence. With being in Windsor Ontario (the late Automotive Capital of Canada) the programs are geared for main streaming into the work force. Three years there, he did very well and was accepted into the U.

Sadly they only accepted credit for one year of his three years at the College but.... starting into his second semester of his second year an assignment comes up on motion design.

We bought him a new latest lap top for that Xmas and one day he comes home and says, I presented this to the class (as required) showing this animated folding ladder and the then Prof had to say to the class at the end of the presentation the what you have just seen was not required of you at this point in your education. Mark is a grad of the College and has had cad design which you will get in the second semester of your third year. Very good Mark!

That alone was a great recognition for his having straightened up and brought some confidence to his future education. 

Then, before graduating, the head of the department approached him and suggested he continue with his Masters. He thought about that for a few days and when he went back thinking he would say, Thank you, but I'm prepared to graduate and go to work, before he can speak in that meeting, the Prof offers him a paid tuition and a paid position on his personal project team with a two year commitment. 

Mark asked for a day to think about the offer and we never pushed him but that was almost two years ago now. At the end of August he will 'Finally' be done (as he puts it) and has a potential job (won't say because he doesn't want "me" to jinx it - me, his biggest supporter ). 

 

Ben, we really don't know each other than what I see and read here. I do however want to say, having read what you post here, that to me you are a determined young man, have goals and recognise you are smart like my son. Yes there are trials in life as you have posted but that will make you stronger from what I hear through your postings. Hell, even at my age I learned from watching my dad dealing with cancer / life (if you will).

When the nurses came into his room and asked how are you doing? He would answer by raising both arms and saying, "I'm doing just wonderful" and believe me he meant it! 

 

Guess what I'm trying to say is, keep faithful to yourself, wish you well in school and hope one day we can meet (even though we are almost on opposite shores).

 

All the best,

Doug

 

[NTX5467]

The "heat" the piston "sees" is far greater than the coolant temperature you reference.

 

The factory hone marks on the piston pin "hole" in the connecting rod don't wear away  It's honed to size for the specific "fit" on the piston pin.

 

At this point in time, the engine builder is the alleged "expert" in what he does/did.  He obviously believes what he does, which might come from another "trusted source", and any challenges from some "young person" (with allegedly less total knowledge or experience) can be amusing to him.  So, your presentation MUST be understandable AND logical.  Key things . . . the piston pin end of the rod didn't wear as he alleged it did in the very short mileage on the engine, even if his theory might be credible.  The connecting rod was modified by somebody, whether it was him or the balance shop.  But a key thing, to me, is that "full floating" rods need matching pistons AND piston pins that are shorter and require a retention method to keep them inside the piston's pin hole.

 

With your new comparisons and knowledge, it might appear you have stronger case.  Not surprising that other machinists in the local area might chose to not get involved.  Several reasons for this.  You might do the Perry Mason routine and get a third party "expert witness" from a race engine oriented machine shop and NOT the one you're involved with, past or present.  In other words, somebody that can explain what had to have happened.

 

Good to see that you're enthusiastically anticipating college!  Remember to prioritize your learning in all areas . . . class work, "play", and otherwise.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Willis, out in the desert college town, "play" may be a little too extreme for forum posting... lol. A buddy of mine that I'll be rooming with just so happens to have a grandfather who kept a hold of his old car, too! His grandfather has two 58 Olds stored on his property waiting for some young hands. One is a wagon and the other is a 2 door hard top. So I think we'll be busy during the off time over there. Also looking forward to the competition, though I think even with the J2, it would still need more to beat a Nailhead.

 

Thanks for the kind words Doug. Yes I started on a 3 year engineering associates degree at the community college that turned into a part time degree that ended up taking much longer than anticipated. To make a long story short, my benefactors fell through and I was forced to make pizzas 5 days a week to make ends meet while going part time, but I endured and I finally got my diploma this year, and was accepted to my school of choice. I'm looking forward to the road ahead, even more so now that I have MY car on the road again. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

If you will take the advice of an old (er) tradesman, do not try and pursue this machine shop.

I don't know if they did something wrong or not and even if they did, all you will achieve is more bitterness (win or loose) and

more money and time down the toilet. The other engineering/machine shops wont back you up for at least 2 reasons, 1 It will cost them time and

money and potentially their reputation if the case falls and 2 most trades sometimes borrow from competitors to get out of a jamb occasionally.

Most auto trades are rather small and gossip travels, both good and bad and do not be surprised if you find yourself on an industry black list.

No one wants too, or will deal with a litigator. Word of mouth can kill a business if enough people are getting crappy work from the company, it wont

be there long

 

[Beemon]

I appreciate the advice, but I will continue forward. I'm not afraid of being blacklisted from anything. About the only thing I see myself getting blacklisted from is the weekly cruise in, and even then he's not part of that club. The machinist I'm talking with now told me to pursue him, so I'm not worried about being burned there, either. On top of it all, he lied to me to save face. I'm sorry,  but I am not letting him off the hook.

 

And if anyone on this forum had done the same, don't think twice that i would consider out of the kindness of my heart I would back down because you thought I didn't know any better. The guy, even after being served, continues to think I don't know any better. I have done a Rockwell hardness test, both rods are made of 1141 forged steel and the machined one is not fatigued by heat. I have the math for the coefficient of thermal expansion to prove that even if it were heated to 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, it would still retain it's press fit (not including the fact that the wrist pin also goes through thermal expansion and will expand into the rod). I won't be in the area for two years or more after, anyways. So go ahead and burn me, it's not my reputation on the line. 

[NTX5467]

All of that engineering "mumbo jumbo" doesn't really fit the "understandable" orientation.  You found hone marks on the connecting rods' piston pin end.  What about similar hone marks on the piston pin area of the piston?  THAT, plus the piston pin hole in the unmolested connecting rod, would be definite evidence of "tampering" that prevented the press-fit from being maintained.  Comparing the piston pin hole sizes with a digital micrometer would be good evidence, too.  

 

I have known of replacement pistons shrinking (slightly decreasing the diameter, causing a knock), but not expanding enough to make the piston pin press-fit not work.

 

The issue of being "black listed" can be a valid situation.  You might be young enough to not worry about it, but it might come to haunt years in the future, in the locale where the original shop was.  People in business pay attention to those things, regardless of how valid the situation might be.  But, as always, "customers have options", but the "options" might be somewhere else.  The current machine shop wants you to pursue the litigation as he knows the first guy did some flaky things and probably wants to "purify" the ranks somewhat, which I understandable.  

 

You can orient your case by showing the comparison of the unmolested stock engine to that of what you have in the rebuild engine.  A little basic explanation should do it.  Having the engineering data for backup can be good, but should be "backup information" rather than part of the main presentation.   The presence of hone marks on the piston pin end of the connecting rod PLUS any hone marks/size differential on the pistons themselves should be more-understandable evidence, I suspect.

 

Many engine shops have a "no warranty" situation on most engine rebuilds, especially something used for racing.  If THEY did something wrong, they'll usually cover it.  If it was a "user/installer error", no dice, understandably.  They guarantee what they did, but not what the customer might do.  Just the nature of the situation.  A private shop that has "a warranty" might suddenly be too busy to have time to take care of the warranty issue.  If the customer gets too pushy, then they might request the customer (and vehicle) vacate the premises.  It's THEIR warranty and THEY can chose to honor it, if desired.  Kind of like the "No shirt, No shoes, No service" thing.

 

You've already headed "down the path".  I hope the trip turns out as desired.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

The second measurement is the stock rod and the first is the "modified" rod. Take my word for it that the wrist pin and pistons are the same measurement.  My micrometer is off by 1 thousandth, but the stock wrist pin is .940. The old rod still has a knurled finish, whereas the mod rod is smooth as silk. 

[NTX5467]

Pictures of the piston pin hole in the pistons?

[Beemon]

3 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

Pictures of the piston pin hole in the pistons?

They measured the same size so I didn't bother, but here you go:

 

 

[NTX5467]

IF the piston pin hole in both pistons is the same diameter, yet in the rebuilt-engine piston, the pin slides in and out of the hole, as the unmolested piston's pin is still a press-fit, that might indicate that something was "changed" to allow the rebuilt-engine's piston pin to slide freely?  In theory, if the press-fit function stays intact, the looseness of the connecting rod on the piston pin should be unimportant, as I understand it.  The additional honing of the rod would only reduce friction as the rod pivots on that piston pin, no more, no less.  So what allowed the piston pin to become looser in its bore?

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

 

Engineers design, build, and go away to repeat the process. Watch for the one who stands up at a meeting and says "We don't need to dwell on the past. We just need a plan to move forward from today." THEN you know who got you into this mess.

 

Or "Empirical knowledge is anecdotal at best, stick with the theory. It should work."

 

An Engineer knows all the laws of nature are supporting his decision. An operator trusts nothing. Trust me.

Bernie

[Guest]

We have a legal system that is supposed to support justice! The only reason not to pursue it in your case imho is if you didn't have resources in time and finances. Being intimidated about the possible dysfunctional things folks might retaliate with, blacklisting, social shunning etc. adds to the attraction of attaining the justice. The whole idea is to make these folks realize there are consquences to their attempts to cheat folks. Pursuing it may only give you satisfaction of outing this guy, cuz if he is that incompetent he prolly has nothing financial to get. Good luck with it!

[60FlatTop]

The car is running now. Honestly, I would drive the car to the first machinist's place with it all cleaned up and running nice. Park it in front and invite him out to see it. When he is impressed with what he thinks is his work, Open the trunk and show him all the parts he failed to fit properly. Tell him you wouldn't have had to do it twice if he had met your expectations. "All this crap in the trunk is your work."

Be sure you know what you expect him to do to resolve his failure before hand. Then tell him " I am young and will be around a long time. Every time I discuss this car I will always tell the story of how disappointed I an with your machine work. That story will probably outlive you. And you know bad stories travel best. Am I going to tell them you didn't care or am I going to tell them you stood behind the work and made it right? It's going to happen one way or the other."

Then you will have a good feel for being assertive. You may find a similar situation in college with an inept professor or totally lame financial and billing department. You have a great opportunity for learning here. Don't miss it, more is coming.

 

Ten extra points if you can appear firm enough to make the guy wet his pants. See how hard it is not to laugh when that happens!

 

When the trunk is open use your finger to point and divert him, but always stare directly into his eyes when he looks back. And use very deliberate adjectives for each part and his work.

It is a rush you would never get in court.

 

Bernie

[Beemon]

Bernie, last cruise-in I went to, I bought this really nice red velvet pillow that I put on top of the air cleaner. On top of it, I pushed the wrist pin out so it was sticking halfway out of the piston and gently set it atop the pillow. People would ask me "what's that?" "Oh, that was Nailhead 1. This is Nailhead 2." At the end of the night, the defendant had walked over (I didn't know he was there), and he told me he got his  papers and was asking what was wrong. So I handed him the piston and allowed him to push the pin all the way through. "On all 8?" "Yep." "Well, looks like the rod lost it's press fit. It happens you know, I've seen it with other engines and even differential bearings. You know my warranty was 12,000 miles or 1 year, whichever came first. There is nothing I can do." "I see." "Is there anything I can do to make this right?" "You just told me there's nothing you can do." "Well I hope you'll see through the kindness of your heart to drop the case." "We'll see." So he knows.

[60FlatTop]

In four years...... or less (after the coefficient of expansion class) you'll be able to look back at that and laugh.

 

I still remember around 1985 when we were standing next to a surface table with a satellite chassis in front of us. The pivot man announced that the chassis was made of Invar to maintain precision in near absolute zero in space. I said "Yeah, my 1935 Nash has Invar struts cast into the pistons to keep them concentric at varying temperatures." They didn't see the humor.

 

They didn't have a clue that I had used one of the most advanced plotters in the world to copy the pattern for a cloth stuffed dinosaur toy for my Wife to make either.

 

I recommend taking your engineering degree to the Navy for a few years once you get it. It will give clarity to your perspective on life.

 

Oh, the old machinist's eyes are brown, aren't they? Mine are.

[NTX5467]

Perhaps he can recount the times things have loosened-up, as his own defense?  That might be interesting to discover!

 

One key issue regarding his 12/12 shop warranty, is that the issues existed within the warranty period.  And well within the warranty's stated mileage, just the time factor kept progressing as you sought to figure out WHY things were as they were (vehicle smoking, performance, etc.).  Giving him the benefit of the doubt that things had been done as they should have been done.  ONLY when you got tired of dealing with it did you discover the internal issues of the motor he assembled.

 

In general, if an engine makes it past the initial run-in period (about 30 minutes to do the cam break-in and such) with good oil pressure, no alarming sounds, etc., it'll be fine for at least 30K miles (depending upon the quality of the parts used in it, by observation) before any wear issues will start to appear.  USUALLY!  The issues appeared well before 30K miles, in this case.

 

In the earlier times of the GM ZZ3 crate motor, many people bought them for street rods.  Many customers had problems with them, as in noisy pistons (the first hypereutectic pistons GM had sued at that time).  The warranty was somewhat short in time period, as if you were going to install it just after purchase.  But we know that many people bought them and then they spent the entire warranty period in the garage, in the crate, uninstalled.  One guy finally got his installed, it made noise, "out of warranty", so he sent it to a machine shop for repairs.  He was talking to the Chevy parts counterperson later on, telling him of his experience.  "It sat in your garage all that time, in the crate?"  "Yes, then when I put it in, it had piston noise that would not go away."  "Although the warranty period had expired from the time of purchase, we could have used the installation date for the warranty's start time."  "Oh . . ."

 

Anyway, enough said.

NTX5467

[Kosage Chavis]

He should have at the very least offered you the money back that you paid him for the job.  

[Beemon]

7 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said:

He should have at the very least offered you the money back that you paid him for the job.  

"It's out of warranty, there's nothing I can do"

[Kosage Chavis]

I got all that, but it's ironic that he's the one asking you to find it in your heart to drop the charges when at the same time he could find it in his heart to offer the money back regardless of the status of the warranty.

[dmfconsult]

If he's asking you what he can do to make things right, you should prepare yourself if he comes to the table with something to offer. Would you accept a settlement of getting money you spent to make it work again?... 50 cents to the dollar?... or something else?  You'd want to think about it because it's tough to predict what a judge may do so sometime it's better to cut your losses get what you can and move forward instead of potentially getting nothing.  I'm just saying you should be prepared to negotiate in case he comes to you with an offer. Good luck!

[Beemon]

I won't talk further about the case, but my gut instinct says that if he has nothing to offer, but begging to have the case shut down, he's scared of the outcome. In Washington State, you have a guarantee of getting your money if you win. It may take years, but you get it one way or the other. He does have a 57 Chevy Bel Air and a 56 Chevy pickup, so it's not like he's broke, or doesn't have anything to offer...

[EmTee]

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

It may take years, but you get it one way or the other. He does have a 57 Chevy Bel Air and a 56 Chevy pickup, so it's not like he's broke, or doesn't have anything to offer...

 

So, what does that mean -- will you have a lien against his estate?  I don't know how many years he has left, but consider that 'time is money' and something today will probably make a bigger impact on your checkbook than waiting for more 10 years from now when you're banking checks from your hard-earned engineering career... 

[NTX5467]

It means he should have some "disposable income" from which to pay any judgments . . . UNLESS those are his family's primary vehicles to get to work and such.  We don't know if they are "survivors" or "show pieces", either.  Too many variables.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Quoted from the Washington Small Claims Court:

Quote

A money judgment in your favor does not necessarily mean that the money will be paid.  The Small Claims Court does not collect the judgment for you.  If no appeal is taken and the judgment is not paid within 30 days, or the time set by the court in the payment plan, you may request (in writing) and upon payment of a $20 fee, that a transcript of the judgment be entered into the civil docket of the court.  At that time you may proceed with a method of collection such as garnishment of wages, bank accounts, and other monies of the defendant or an execution may be issued on cars, boats, or other personal property of the judgment debtor.