Numbers Matching

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

What do you tell someone when they tell you they have a 'numbers matching' 1955 Buick?

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I stopped short of telling them they were full of Z____

[JohnD1956]

If confrontation is the objective one may ask: Which numbers match?  But speaking for myself, I would probably nod in the affirmative, and just walk away. 

 

 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

16 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

If confrontation is the objective one may ask: Which numbers match?  But speaking for myself, I would probably nod in the affirmative, and just walk away. 

 

 

Well, it's on an internet forum (not this forum)

To be sure I understood what he said, I asked;

"Numbers matching? On a '55 Buick?"

he replied

"Yes sir".

And, as you suggested, I asked him which numbers matched.

And pointed out that engine, trans, and VIN numbersdidn't match   before 1958.

 

i haven't seen a reply , yet.

 

[NTX5467]

Before the "collector" car market got to be what it now is, about the only place "numbers matching" was talked about was in muscle cars and such.  Otherwise, many would presume you were talking about Lotto Numbers.

 

Many people who ask that question are somewhat showing their lack of knowledge of older vehicles.  There was no VIN per se, but a "motor number" used for titling purposes.  They are just mimicking  what they've heard on cable coverage of car auctions.  Trying to act knowledgeable in areas they are not knowledgeable in, it seems.

 

"Numbers Matching"??  Everything on the car matches what it's supposed to have, or did have when it left the assembly plant.

 

NTX5467

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NTX5467 said:

"Numbers Matching"??  Everything on the car matches what it's supposed to have, or did have when it left the assembly plant.

Who, today could possibly say "Everything on the car matches what it's supposed to have, or did have when it left the assembly plant" regarding a five year old car never mind a 50 or 80 year old one.  Even "properly restored", "correctly restored", "restored to original" are NOT the same as they came from the factory.  It would be absolutely impossible to restore an automobile to be the exact same as it came from the factory.  In fact between 59 an 74 when I worked in new dealerships (GM and Chrysler) least 30% of the new cars delivered were not as they came from the factory.  They had parts, paint and upholstery changed, they had bumpers re-chromed.  Early in each model year many parts from earlier years were used to fix updated (new design) parts that were defective and new parts were not available yet. Tire sizes were changed, Power tailgates, power seats and even complete differentials were transferred between cars to tailor the new car to the purchaser's wants and get rid of on hand stock.  Then the bastardized units were often discounted to staff or a friend of a staff member who didn't care that the build sheet and the car bore no resemblance to each other as long as they had a new car and saved money.

[Grimy]

For many less-versed in these matters than we are, I think "numbers matching" means that a 1955 Buick, for example, has a 1955 engine which can be verified by the engine number.

 

Some fine points in 1946-48 Cadillacs (and I think '41-'42 as well), the engine number stamped in the block was preceded by the series number (61-62-60S-75) in which originally installed.  So if I were looking at a 1947 convertible, available only in the 62 series, and it had some other series' engine number--or the wholly different surplus tank engine number, that could be a factor in the price

[MrEarl]

8 hours ago, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

Well, it's on an internet forum (not this forum)

To be sure I understood what he said, I asked;

"Numbers matching? On a '55 Buick?"

he replied

"Yes sir".

And, as you suggested, I asked him which numbers matched.

And pointed out that engine, trans, and VIN numbersdidn't match   before 1958.

 

i haven't seen a reply , yet.

 

 

There are other forums?!  

he probably just meant that the engine serial number sequence was within the correct range for that year and the last number matched the series that it is in and didn't want to say all that so just used that term instead. "Correct year engine" would have been a better term. 

 

edit- in other words, now that I have read Grimy's post, what he said. 

 

[JohnD1956]

8 hours ago, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

haven't seen a reply , yet.

Lol...you may have caused another 55 Buick to be put  up for sale. 

[EmTee]

23 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Lol...you may have caused another 55 Buick to be put  up for sale. 

 

'Numbers matching' (aka drivetrain originality) is only one of many factors to consider when contemplating a classic car purchase.  For me, I wouldn't immediately ignore a car with non-original engine, however, it does make me wonder what happened to the car that led to that event.  If the car was neglected to the point that the engine failed what does that say about the rest of the car?

 

On the other hand, when it comes to Lotto -- matching numbers is important! 

[JohnD1956]

I have heard some very odd rumors that certain vehicles are so coveted in a "numbers matching" orientation, that over zealous restorers go so far as re stamping engine numbers.  Only rumors mind you. But.... I'll stick with my favorite marquee. 

[kgreen]

The Corvette guys are fanatical out numbers matching justifiably because many parts on those cars were numbered and were specific to the year of their manufacture.  

 

My numbers matching concern on the '40 is that the engine is actually a '41, but the correct size.  The car will run with that engine, and probably look just fine.  Upon sale of the car (as my ashes blow with the wind) I seriously doubt my descendants will get a nickle more for the car if I spent thousands more installing a proper serial numbered '40 engine.  On that note, I will be satisfied that all the parts combined will give the car the appearance of a 1940 Buick.

[DonMicheletti]

Actually there are "numders matching" cars. But certainly not Buicks.

An example is old Ferraris. Everything has the serial number on it including stuff like bumpers. Matching numbars means everything when it comres to value.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I told the guy that VIN , Engine and Trans numbers didn't match before 1958.

He dismissivly said that his numbers matching claim wasn't directed towards me, but to someone else in the thread. (From which , I inferred that I should mind my own business)

And that his Engine and Trans numbers DID match.

I thanked him for teaching me something about Buicks that I didn't know.

[1953mack]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

What do you tell someone when they tell you they have a 'numbers matching' 1955 Buick?

 

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:41 PM, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

I stopped short of telling them they were full of Z____

 

I'm surprised that, with you being a 1955 Buick owner along with other posters, were ready to pull the trigger and comment or walk away from the ebay seller without a full understanding of what the seller had in mind with his "numbers matching" descriptive. Just exactly what part identification numbers were you looking for to match? Matching part numbers have a different meaning to Owners of other Marques, Corvette/Muscle car cults, and other people as noted in this Thread.

 

If you're up to speed with 1953-1956 Buicks, you should know that the Shop Manuals and other Buick literature explain and/or the seller could have meant to say:

(1) that Buick used both a Car Serial Number and a different, non-matching, Engine Serial Number. Some states used the Car Serial Number for title documentation...some used the Engine Serial Number. If the seller lived in California, the seller could have meant that his 1955 Buick has the original title with the Engine Serial Number used for documenting ownership and that his Buick still retains the original engine with a sequential number range between 720080 and 1460022;

(2) or, that the Car Serial Number stamped on an approximate 3/4" x 3 1/4" metal tag, that is usually found on the Driver's side A-pillar or nearby on the door sill, matches the numbers that are stamped in the frame rails, and matches what is shown on his title;

(3) or, that on 1955 Buick Car Serial Numbers, the third alphanumeric is the code for the assembly plant and that numeral matches the assembly plant code (one or two alpha letters) that is on the third line of the Body by Fisher Number plate.

(4) or, that his Dynaflow transmission was never replaced and the single alpha letter and built-date numeral(s) is/are in the number-range for his Buick;

(5) or, that he has the original Bill of Sale from 1955 that identifies the C.S.N. or E.S.N. and the numbers match what's on his Buick and title;

(6) or, that the date of the Bill of Sale would make sense with all the part numbers that are stamped with identifying year/month code ranges...etched into the windshield and other windows, stamped on generator and starter tags, etc.    

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

..."Pay attention to people that know more than you know when you're talking to them"...  (author unknown)

 

 

 

 

 

[Mudbone]

Another area where numbers do not match on a 55 Buick is the amount you spent on it to get it perfect and the amount it is worth!

[60FlatTop]

I'm lucky the number on the title matches the VIN on the car!

 

Well, come to think of it, maybe it's not luck.

Bernie

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

4 hours ago, Mudbone said:

Another area where numbers do not match on a 55 Buick is the amount you spent on it to get it perfect and the amount it is worth!

If I divide by 2.5 

$ spent = $ worth

[old-tank]

On 4/6/2017 at 10:15 PM, JamesBulldogMiller55Buick said:

Well, it's on an internet forum (not this forum)

Where is this forum James?

We need to go over there and smack some sense into those dummies.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

9 hours ago, 1953mack said:

 

 

I'm surprised that, with you being a 1955 Buick owner along with other posters, were ready to pull the trigger and comment or walk away from the ebay seller without a full understanding of what the seller had in mind with his "numbers matching" descriptive. Just exactly what part identification numbers were you looking for to match? Matching part numbers have a different meaning to Owners of other Marques, Corvette/Muscle car cults, and other people as noted in this Thread.

 

If you're up to speed with 1953-1956 Buicks, you should know that the Shop Manuals and other Buick literature explain and/or the seller could have meant to say:

(1) that Buick used both a Car Serial Number and a different, non-matching, Engine Serial Number. Some states used the Car Serial Number for title documentation...some used the Engine Serial Number. If the seller lived in California, the seller could have meant that his 1955 Buick has the original title with the Engine Serial Number used for documenting ownership and that his Buick still retains the original engine with a sequential number range between 720080 and 1460022;

(2) or, that the Car Serial Number stamped on an approximate 3/4" x 3 1/4" metal tag, that is usually found on the Driver's side A-pillar or nearby on the door sill, matches the numbers that are stamped in the frame rails, and matches what is shown on his title;

(3) or, that on 1955 Buick Car Serial Numbers, the third alphanumeric is the code for the assembly plant and that numeral matches the assembly plant code (one or two alpha letters) that is on the third line of the Body by Fisher Number plate.

(4) or, that his Dynaflow transmission was never replaced and the single alpha letter and built-date numeral(s) is/are in the number-range for his Buick;

(5) or, that he has the original Bill of Sale from 1955 that identifies the C.S.N. or E.S.N. and the numbers match what's on his Buick and title;

(6) or, that the date of the Bill of Sale would make sense with all the part numbers that are stamped with identifying year/month code ranges...etched into the windshield and other windows, stamped on generator and starter tags, etc.    

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

..."Pay attention to people that know more than you know when you're talking to them"...  (author unknown)

 

 

 

 

 

It wasn't ebay, 

the car is not for sale.

 

I didn't walk away.

I asked him which numbers matched, after telling him that VIN , engine and trans numbers didn't match in 1955.

 

He corrected me , by restating that his did match.

 

I thanked him for teaching me something I didn't know previously.

 

Since then , another '55 Buick owner joined the thread and  asked him to tell where thise numbers could be found that matched .

 

So far , there hasn't been  a reply to let us know where and what mumbers match.

 

 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

4 hours ago, old-tank said:

Where is this forum James?

We need to go over there and smack some sense into those dummies.

It's Facebook,

Here's a link

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2525571274/permalink/10154536199926275/

 

this link puts you on the page, for the particular thread, look for the Green 1955 46R

it's a beautiful car, 

Green is my number 2 favorite color for a car.

Edited April 8, 2017 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick (see edit history)

[Mudbone]

I just received a matching numbers front exhaust pipe bracket and clamp from mike. It even had the correct amount of dirt and grease on it that perfectly blended into “One Bids” greasy underbelly.

[NTX5467]

I believe that many people (who tend to have come to the party late) believe that all vehicles have a specific "VIN" and all major components are matched to it, as later vehicles tend to be.  Having ALL of those "numbers match" can be important for value or perceived bragging rights.  They typically have not researched many vehicles of earlier vintages, suspecting a VIN existed for all vehicles in prior times . . . which is not accurate, but did change somewhere in the later 1950s.

 

Many states used motor numbers as back then, short of some catastrophic engine failure (or terminal block cracks from lack of anti-freeze protection), the engine blocks never left the chassis they were installed in.  Or, of course, engine swaps for bigger engines.  The states that used motor numbers also had appropriate (possibly little-known) documents to file with the state when such an engine change was made . . . which still exist for those affected model years.  OR, the particular state DMV can issue their own number for titling/registration purposes, which is attached to the engine.  When the model year of the vehicle used a VIN per se, these things are not necessary as the VIN defined the vehicle for titling/registration purposes.

 

In the "motor number" states, how many of the middle-50s cars which had crate motor engine swaps are now completely legal?  OR the "newer engine in earlier chassis" issues??!!  Few people know or understand titling/registration statutes as all they've ever known is "VIN".  I know of one situation, related by an engine seller, where the purchaser went to the Texas DMV to file tne papers to document the engine change for his vehicle.  They accepted his paperwork and purchase documentation and then "contacted" the seller of the engine who had done an engine swap for his new street rod (where the purchased engine came from).  Can't have the same number for two separate vehicles and respective owners.

 

In another case, an owner had installed a '77 Chevy engine in a '54 Chevy, which caught the eye of an Inspector during the annual safety/emissions vehicle inspection.  He had to get the appropriate emissions hardware AND install it on his 54 Chevy to be in compliance with the state emissions checks. These things intensified with the advent of Tuned Port Injection on the Chevy small block V-8s in the middle 1980s.  As one street rod associate noted at that later time, he advised all of the street rod people to build a "generic Chevy small block" with not model-year-specific items, for that reason.  Sometimes, the race for the newest OEM upgrade to an older vehicle's powertrain could cause issues unknown to become operative.

 

The "more numbers" orientation of earlier vehicles also related to how the vehicles were assembled.  Fisher Body, for the GM example, would have received the build order from GM and then initiated the build process itself . . . with appropriate "body numbers" and plates for ID in their operation.  The engine plants would work in "batches" and affix an engine number for their purposes.  Same with other large vehicle components, too, I suspect.  As the late David Corbin knew of these things, he assembled a huge database of which "batch" of engines went to which plant and using the production date data of those batches, could determine if the particular number on an engine could have been original-to-the-chassis based on the vehicle's build date sequence.

 

As time progressed, Fisher Body was folded into the General Motors organization  and later General Motors Assembly Division, which later was designated by another name, I believe, as total vehicle production was more integrated, computerized, and streamlined.

 

"Edjeecating" some people is just as problematic as giving driving instructions to "others" on a busy freeway . . . not going to happen or might lead to poor outcomes.  Best to find ways to "deal with these things" and get on with things.  As long as the designated titling number matches the appropriate vehicle component, that's as "numbers match" as THAT vehicle can be.

 

NTX5467

Edited April 9, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Well,

just now , the man very humbly apologized for making the claim of numbers matching.

He explained that it is what the previous owner told him. 

Caveat Emptor.

[buick5563]

17 hours ago, Mudbone said:

I just received a matching numbers front exhaust pipe bracket and clamp from mike. It even had the correct amount of dirt and grease on it that perfectly blended into “One Bids” greasy underbelly.

 

 

 

 

Yeah... that's why I left the grease on.

 

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 2:50 PM, buick5563 said:

 

Yeah... that's why I left the grease on.

 

      On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:05 PM, Mudbone said:

I just received a matching numbers front exhaust pipe bracket and clamp from mike. It even had the correct amount of dirt and grease on it that perfectly blended into “One Bids” greasy underbelly.

 

Yeah, and you left the grease on it to preserve the integrity of the numbers so they would not rust off.

[jdd5345]

If the tag on the frame and the stamp on the engine are the same numbers, is that not a numbers matching car? The engines and frames were made at the different places, but a matching plate was included with each block to be attached to the frame during assembly. I've also heard the firewalls were the same color as the car. GM painted the firewall and underside a dark brown, then painted the entire body afterwards. Did they paint the chassis the body color too. No. They're weren't hot rods.